22 replies to this topic

[Myke Pantera]

I'd like to propose a solution for MASC that should work with most of the lights and the current speed limit, but without the immobilize drawback that would render this technology useless in a game like this.

The rules for MASC could be like this, numbers a matter of fine tuning ofc:

• Only MASC enabled mechs can equip 0-1 MASC of a weight dependant class (similar to JJ enabled mechs) (canonish)
  
• Single piece of equipment (canon)
  
• Weights the carrying Mech's tonnage divided by 20 for IS or 25 for clan, see class tables (canonish)
  
• Takes up it's weight in critical spaces, see class tables (canon)
  
• While active increases the Mech's top speed by 20kph (non-canon)
  
• While active increase acceleration by 22.5% (total of 67.5% for elited mechs while active) (non-canon)
  
• While active increase deceleration by 25% (total of 75% for elited mechs while active) (non-canon)
  
• While active no weapons can be triggered (non-canon, instead of chance to immobilize the using Mech.)
  
• Lasts 4 seconds if fully charged (press and hold to use, like with JJ) (non-canon)
  
• After releasing the MASC button it takes 500ms before MASC can be re-enabled or starts to recharge automatically (added to limit release > fire > reactivate and to prevent macros). (non-canon)
  
• Full recharge takes 4s times the Mech's tonnage divided by 20. 4s for Flea (4.0*20/20). 19s for the Gladiator (4.0*95/20). To make amends to the fact that lights don't gain as much speed as they usually would. (non-canon).

Class Tables

Spoiler

Inner Sphere Class Table

| CLASS     | WEIGHT | SLOTS | APPLICABLE MECH WEIGHT |
| CLASS I   |   1t   |   1s  | 20t                    |
| CLASS II  |   2t   |   2s  | 25-40t                 |
| CLASS III |   3t   |   3s  | 45-60t                 |
| CLASS IV  |   4t   |   4s  | 65-80t                 |
| CLASS V   |   5t   |   5s  | 85-100t                |

Clan Class Table

| CLASS     | WEIGHT | SLOTS | APPLICABLE MECH WEIGHT |
| CLASS I   |   1t   |   1s  | 20-25t                 |
| CLASS II  |   2t   |   2s  | 30-50t                 |
| CLASS III |   3t   |   3s  | 55-75t                 |
| CLASS IV  |   4t   |   4s  | 80-100t                |

Case Study Flea

Spoiler

Mech: FLE-17
Engine: 120 (97.2 / 106.9kph)
Max Engine Rating: 175 (141.7 / 155.9kph) (suggested if 176kph is doable, 170 otherwise)
Speed w/ MASC: 175.9kph (171.5kph if engine rating needs to be 170)
MASC Tonnage / Crits: 1t / 1slot (CLASS I)
MASC Duration: 4s
MASC Recharge: 4s
Hardpoints: Energy: 2xLA, 1xLT, 1xCT, 1xRT, 2xRA

Since we have a max speed limit of something above 171.1kph I am hoping that we can push this to 175.9kph to give the MASC Flea a 175 engine rating and a right to exist. If this is not feasible we need to cap it at 170 losing the 7th internal heatsink along the way. Non-MASC Flea's would get a max engine rating of 185, one less than the Locust, because the factory engine is 2 grades (40 ratings) lower.

Case Study Shadow Cat

Spoiler

Mech: SDC-Prime
Engine: 270 (97.2 / 106.9kph)
Speed w/ MASC: 126.9kph
MASC Tonnage / Crits: 2t / 2slot (CLASS II)
MASC Duration: 4s
MASC Recharge: 9s

With a MASC speed of 126.9 this should be close enough to the canon 130kph to satisfy players, and the removal of the immobilize rule makes this a viable equipment.

Case Study Executioner / Gladiator

Spoiler

Mech: EXE-Prime
Engine: 380 (64.8 / 71.2kph)
Speed w/ MASC: 91.2kph
MASC Tonnage / Crits: 4t / 4slot (CLASS IV)
MASC Duration: 4s
MASC Recharge: 19s

Gains about 5kph more than it should but since it can't be used while fighting (unless you need a short boost to get into the mechs back or into range) the constant 20kph added by MASC sound well balanced to me.

Case Study Fire Moth / Dasher

Spoiler

Mech: FRM-Prime
Engine: 200 (162.1 / 178.3kph)
Speed w/ MASC: 198.3kph
MASC Tonnage / Crits: 1t / 1slot (CLASS I)
MASC Duration: 4s
MASC Recharge: 4s

While the final speed of 198.3kph is substantially lower than the 216kph this won't cause issues because the base speed already breaks our speed limit, and even if PGI can push that limit to 180, the only possibility to make MASC work with the Dasher is to remove the speed gain from the equipment and than MASC is totally pointless... No amount of de- and acceleration will ever make MASC viable and will MASC would loose it's defining attribute.

Some reasoning behind my proposal

Spoiler

The main problem with the canon MASC is twofold.
1) The speed gain is relative to the mechs speed, making it hard to work with light mechs that already need good base speed to be viable in this game.
2) The drawback of instant immobilization is too severe for a real time game.

In order to tackle the first problem I decided to make the speed gain constant (instead of relative) which reduces the effectiveness of MASC on lights compared to canon and increases it on assaults compared to canon. In order to fix this problem I've introduced the recharge time that is dependant on the weight of the Mech, so 20t Mechs can use MASC much more frequently than assault Mechs. Since 20 additional kph is too much for Mechs like the Locust or Commando it goes without saying that MASC needs to be limited to those Mechs that are designed for it, so the engine cap can be chosen appropriately for those variants/chassis.

For the second problem we've heard some ideas already, like leg the Mech or do some damage to the internals of the legs, but this would make MASC less desirable on lights which need their leg structure really bad. So as drawback I decided to not allow shooting while MASC is active, and to avoid players from releasing MASC just for a splitsecond in order to fire some weapons before reactivating it I've decided to completely empty the MASC charge once MASC is released introduce a delay between release and recharge/activate in which weapons may or may not be shot (subject to balancing).

If anything is unclear i'll gladly add some clarification, just let me know.

Edit / Changelist

Spoiler

Changes from 19th Jan 2015, 23:00 CET

• Added class tables
  
• Removed Rule: Requires a hardpoint like ECM (non-canon)
  
• Removed Rule: If released early, remaining charge is lost, and recharge starts from the beginning (added to avoid release > fire > reactivate). (non-canon)
  
• Removed Rule: At least 50% of the MASC bar need to be charged before it can be activated again. (non-canon)
  
• Added Rule: Only MASC enabled mechs can equip 0-1 MASC of a weight dependant class (similar to JJ enabled mechs) (canonish)
  
• Added Rule: After releasing the MASC button it takes 500ms before MASC can be reenabled or starts to recharge automatically (added to limit release > fire > reactivate). (non-canon)
  
• Updated reasoning

Edited by Myke Pantera, 20 January 2015 - 12:38 AM.

[Ryokens leap]

Yep, that could work.

[Nothing Whatsoever]

Yeah, rather good idea, that needs further testing!

[HlynkaCG]

I like the idea of a fixed speed boost as a work-around for the speed-limit issue but the rest of it needs work.

[Myke Pantera]

Ryokens leap, on 17 January 2015 - 08:58 PM, said:

Yep, that could work.

Praetor Knight, on 18 January 2015 - 12:26 AM, said:

Yeah, rather good idea, that needs further testing!

I'm glad you like it. If you could cast your vote it would help making this poll look like i'm not the only who thinks this could work well.

HlynkaCG, on 18 January 2015 - 10:21 AM, said:

I like the idea of a fixed speed boost as a work-around for the speed-limit issue but the rest of it needs work.

I'd love to hear which rules bother you the most? The non-weapon thing? The weight dependent refresh rate\rules? Or just too complicated overall?

[HlynkaCG]

Myke Pantera, on 19 January 2015 - 09:13 AM, said:

I'd love to hear which rules bother you the most? The non-weapon thing? The weight dependent refresh rate\rules? Or just too complicated overall?

Too complicated overall, with a side order of reinventing the wheel. Jump jets are already in the game, and I see no reason not to re-use their framework.

A chassis or variant would be flagged as "MASC capable" in the same way that mechs are currently flagged as being Jump capable. This flag would allow the mech to equip a MASC unit appropriate to it's tonnage in the same manner that you are currently able to select and equip Jump-jets, with the only difference being that having multiple MASC units installed would not provide any additional benefit. (so basically like how JJs used to be only heavier )

• MASC - CLASS I: 5 slots, 5 tons (for Mechs weighing 90 tons or more)
  
• MASC - CLASS II: 4 slots, 4 tons (for Mechs in the 70 - 85 ton range)
  
• MASC - CLASS III: 3 slots, 3 tons (for Mechs in the 50 - 65 ton range)
  
• MASC - CLASS IV: 2 slots, 2 tons (for Mechs in the 30 - 45 ton range)
  
• MASC - CLASS V: 1 slot, 1 ton (for Mechs weighing less than 30 tons)

As far as implementation goes. Holding down your "MASC" key boosts your max speed by "X kph" and your acceleration by "Y%" until the bar is empty. Continuing to hold the key down after the bar is empty inflicts a small amount of damage to your legs. (comparable to fall damage from JJs)

Edited by HlynkaCG, 19 January 2015 - 11:35 AM.

[Fantastic Ergo]

Great idea,
^5

[Myke Pantera]

HlynkaCG, on 19 January 2015 - 11:22 AM, said:

Too complicated overall, with a side order of reinventing the wheel. Jump jets are already in the game, and I see no reason not to re-use their framework.

A chassis or variant would be flagged as "MASC capable" in the same way that mechs are currently flagged as being Jump capable. This flag would allow the mech to equip a MASC unit appropriate to it's tonnage in the same manner that you are currently able to select and equip Jump-jets, with the only difference being that having multiple MASC units installed would not provide any additional benefit. (so basically like how JJs used to be only heavier )

• MASC - CLASS I: 5 slots, 5 tons (for Mechs weighing 90 tons or more)
  
• MASC - CLASS II: 4 slots, 4 tons (for Mechs in the 70 - 85 ton range)
  
• MASC - CLASS III: 3 slots, 3 tons (for Mechs in the 50 - 65 ton range)
  
• MASC - CLASS IV: 2 slots, 2 tons (for Mechs in the 30 - 45 ton range)
  
• MASC - CLASS V: 1 slot, 1 ton (for Mechs weighing less than 30 tons)

As far as implementation goes. Holding down your "MASC" key boosts your max speed by "X kph" and your acceleration by "Y%" until the bar is empty. Continuing to hold the key down after the bar is empty inflicts a small amount of damage to your legs. (comparable to fall damage from JJs)

Thanks for your feedback,

I've changed the hardpoint requirement to a general 'Mech needs to be enabled for' requirement like with JJ with the possibility to add 0-1 MASC (no need to allow multiple, when they don't offer anything, and the JJ framework already allows for limited number of *)

The class system is a necessity for this games equipment store so I've added class tables in the OP that stick to the canon weight and slot metrics. PGI always sticks to original weight and slot values, and rightly so!

I removed 2 of the recharge rules in favour of a simpler delay rule in order to simplify things a little bit. I still don't buy into leg/structure damage from MASC, no matter how much canon this may be. They could lower the falldamage speed threshold while MASC is active a little bit, but that's it in terms of MASC caused damage I would like to see added.

I hope these changes don't invalidate current likes, but might convince more people of this proposal.

Edited by Myke Pantera, 19 January 2015 - 03:10 PM.

[A sebaceous cyst]

HlynkaCG, on 19 January 2015 - 11:22 AM, said:

[/size]

Too complicated overall, with a side order of reinventing the wheel. Jump jets are already in the game, and I see no reason not to re-use their framework.

A chassis or variant would be flagged as "MASC capable" in the same way that mechs are currently flagged as being Jump capable. This flag would allow the mech to equip a MASC unit appropriate to it's tonnage in the same manner that you are currently able to select and equip Jump-jets, with the only difference being that having multiple MASC units installed would not provide any additional benefit. (so basically like how JJs used to be only heavier )

• MASC - CLASS I: 5 slots, 5 tons (for Mechs weighing 90 tons or more)
  
• MASC - CLASS II: 4 slots, 4 tons (for Mechs in the 70 - 85 ton range)
  
• MASC - CLASS III: 3 slots, 3 tons (for Mechs in the 50 - 65 ton range)
  
• MASC - CLASS IV: 2 slots, 2 tons (for Mechs in the 30 - 45 ton range)
  
• MASC - CLASS V: 1 slot, 1 ton (for Mechs weighing less than 30 tons)

As far as implementation goes. Holding down your "MASC" key boosts your max speed by "X kph" and your acceleration by "Y%" until the bar is empty. Continuing to hold the key down after the bar is empty inflicts a small amount of damage to your legs. (comparable to fall damage from JJs)

I do like this suggestion a little better actually. My knowledge of the BT universe essentially ended shortly after the clan invasion so things like MASC I'm not really familiar with. I know for purists having everything work like it did in TT is a high priority but some things might just not translate into MWO very well. As much as I would like things to be as accurate as possible myself, I would rather have MASC mechs in the game without the MASC system than not have them in the game at all (or until MASC can be properly coded to work within MWO)...but thats just me

[Banditman]

The problem has never been that PGI doesn't know how to implement MASC, or have interesting strategies for that implementation. The problem has ever and always been that hit registration is already quite shaky when you're talking about a light target moving 150 kph. Add MASC to that, and PGI just doesn't feel like their network code can deal with it, HSR or not.

Not sure how many of you were around when Commandos went 200 kph, but to say that hitting them was a challenge didn't even come within Wrigley field of the truth.

[Myke Pantera]

A sebaceous cyst, on 20 January 2015 - 12:45 PM, said:

I do like this suggestion a little better actually. My knowledge of the BT universe essentially ended shortly after the clan invasion so things like MASC I'm not really familiar with. I know for purists having everything work like it did in TT is a high priority but some things might just not translate into MWO very well. As much as I would like things to be as accurate as possible myself, I would rather have MASC mechs in the game without the MASC system than not have them in the game at all (or until MASC can be properly coded to work within MWO)...but thats just me

Well, I updated my OP to use HlynkaCG's system of which mechs can actually equip MASC.
His Class table won't work, because tons and critspaces are always like in lore, otherwise the stock builds would be broken.

About his idea to "inflict self-damage if you don't release in time", this can be prevented with macros making it a rather easy to exploit feature. I personally would prefer something that hinders my ability to use MASC while shooting compared to self-damage, but that's just my view.

Banditman, on 21 January 2015 - 08:40 AM, said:

The problem has never been that PGI doesn't know how to implement MASC, or have interesting strategies for that implementation. The problem has ever and always been that hit registration is already quite shaky when you're talking about a light target moving 150 kph. Add MASC to that, and PGI just doesn't feel like their network code can deal with it, HSR or not.

Not sure how many of you were around when Commandos went 200 kph, but to say that hitting them was a challenge didn't even come within Wrigley field of the truth.

Thats precisely why i suggested a constant speed gain of 20kph, because this enables MASC to be used on lights, without having to tune down their max. engine cap too far without breaking the 171ish kph speed limit we currently have in game. See case study Flea.

[Banditman]

No it doesn't.

Lights are already right up against the speed cap. Over 150 lights start rubber banding like crazy. That speed cap isn't some arbitrary number. It's what works. Frankly, the Locust is already broken. It's nearly impossible to hit due to the rubber banding and HSR limitations. That's at 169. Imagine 189. Imagine a SDR at 189. No wait. Scratch that. Now I'm having nightmares.

Yes, 20 kph would work on mediums and above. It would work well in fact. But it would still break lights.

[Mr Hunter]

I like the ideas but I think more along the lines of it doubles the mechs speed but after 10-15 seconds you can break the legs. and you need to wait 10-15 seconds for you to beable to use it for 10-15 seconds w/o risking loss of legs. E.g. if you only wait 5 seconds you can only use for 5 seconds

[xVLFBERHxT]

Yes, for the Executioner!

[Myke Pantera]

Banditman, on 23 January 2015 - 08:08 AM, said:

No it doesn't.

Lights are already right up against the speed cap. Over 150 lights start rubber banding like crazy. That speed cap isn't some arbitrary number. It's what works. Frankly, the Locust is already broken. It's nearly impossible to hit due to the rubber banding and HSR limitations. That's at 169. Imagine 189. Imagine a SDR at 189. No wait. Scratch that. Now I'm having nightmares.

Yes, 20 kph would work on mediums and above. It would work well in fact. But it would still break lights.

Well, it only breaks light if you assume that lights are already broken, which they might or might not be. I'll not argue about this. But as long as other 20-30t mechs are capable of running 171kph, there is no reason why another 20t mech shouldn't be able to do so.

I know that many people complain about how broken the > 155kph mechs are, but ALL of them are stuck in tier 5 or 4 nontheless, so the HSR issues don't help them enough to make them even remotely OP.

B8hunter, on 01 February 2015 - 01:21 PM, said:

I like the ideas but I think more along the lines of it doubles the mechs speed but after 10-15 seconds you can break the legs. and you need to wait 10-15 seconds for you to beable to use it for 10-15 seconds w/o risking loss of legs. E.g. if you only wait 5 seconds you can only use for 5 seconds

Since we have a speed limit of about 171 (depending on who you ask), if MASC doubles the speed, you can't apply it to mechs with a basespeed of > 85 ruling out all lights, and MASC is popular with lights... Double speed on assaults might even break their walk animation...
If you mean double walking speed as in canon, the problem is less dramatic, but still rules out all lights.
So I still believe that constant speed gain with weight dependant refresh rates is the perfect solution to this problem.

Some potential breaking leg/damage to leg or whatever rules instead of the no-weapons-allowed rule is for sure a possibility but i think no weapons allowed would make for interesting choices as to how and when to use MASC.

[Karl Streiger]

Well i like the proposal. Maybe i would tweak the acceleration a little bit more.

Well considering the MASC capable Mechs - only the lights are a real problem.
Considering the weight of MASC both Flea as well as FireMoth should get a gain of speed they could not get for 1t more of engine rating.
considering the flea - it should run with a 150 engine + MASC as fast as with a 190 engine (XL).
FireMoth would be a serious problem even without masc because of a 200er engine.

With those exceptions MASC would be a great gain for other Mechs already implemented in the game (Catapract + Wolverine)

What i think is a really really good idea: the "deactivation" of weapon fire instead of the random "critical" hit of the legs.
With MASC engaged and no weapon fire - its up to the user to release masc - and fire his weapons, with a random chance you can be sure that MASC will blow up in the moment you activate it for the first time.

Edited by Karl Streiger, 03 February 2015 - 04:17 AM.

[Myke Pantera]

Karl Streiger, on 03 February 2015 - 04:14 AM, said:

Well i like the proposal. Maybe i would tweak the acceleration a little bit more.

Well considering the MASC capable Mechs - only the lights are a real problem.
Considering the weight of MASC both Flea as well as FireMoth should get a gain of speed they could not get for 1t more of engine rating.
considering the flea - it should run with a 150 engine + MASC as fast as with a 190 engine (XL).
FireMoth would be a serious problem even without masc because of a 200er engine.

About the acceleration, those values are subject to balancing and tweaking so everything feels smooth. So my values are just a suggestion for initial values.

The FireMoth is ofc too fast even without MASC, so i have no idea of how to fix this one I'm afraid.

As for the Flea I'm not entirely sure i get your point?
Let's say we give the Flea an engine cap of 185 (to distinguish it from the locust, which has a much higher engine in canon) and let's say we give the MASC version an engine cap of 170 (so it runs 151kph, which is really the bottom line, 175 would actually be better) this means:
Standard Engines: -2.5t for lower engine +1t for MASC (+1 for HS).
XL Engines: -2t for lower engine + 1t for MASC (+1 for HS).
In both cases a max speed gain of around 6kph over the regular version, but -15kph during MASC reload times. So higher max speed for equal overall weight but lower speed while MASC is reloading, which luckily is only 4s on 20t mechs. Sounds ok to me? A rating of 175 for the MASC variant would be better though, but the gameengine needs to handle 176kph, and i'm not sure if this is possible, even if it's not the constant speed. A baseengine of 180 for the other Fleas would make the MASC variant even more interesting, but 160kph might be too slow for a 20t mech.

Edit: Yay to Wolverine, Cataphract and Centurion i believe?!

Edited by Myke Pantera, 03 February 2015 - 07:54 AM.

[Burktross]

Instead of no weapon firing, how about jittery firing a la jumpjet shooting.

[Myke Pantera]

Burktross, on 14 February 2015 - 04:32 PM, said:

Instead of no weapon firing, how about jittery firing a la jumpjet shooting.

Jittery firing may be too little of a drawback, but could work as well. Needs to be seen. The constant speedgain + weight dependant charge time + only equipable on MASC enabled mechs part is the core part of this proposal as it allows MASC to be integrated now, not when high speed HSR is fixed (aka never)

[Draykin]

I don't see why people keep saying that MASC needs some sort of totally new and unique implementation. It's not a problem of PGI not knowing how to implement MASC, but a problem of hit registration. There's a limit to how fast a 'Mech can go before there are hit reg. problems, and as it stands, this "version" of MASC might not push 'Mechs over that limit... but it seems like it's designed for Heavier 'Mechs only. 20kph isn't that big of a deal for Lights in most cases, while Assaults will LOVE MASC TO DEATH. Not only that, but it doesn't really make much logical sense for a system to increase the speed of a 25 ton machine the same amount it increases the speed of a 100 ton machine.