114 replies to this topic

[Escef]

kapusta11, on 18 January 2015 - 02:51 AM, said:

Ok so how come 2-4 superstar players that carry the entire team have the same ELO as some cross-eyed sub 100 damage noobs? How come win/loss streaks are even possible?

Because ELO is based on WINS AND LOSSES, NOT KILLS AND DAMAGE TOTALS.

How is that difficult?

[kapusta11]

Escef, on 18 January 2015 - 02:55 AM, said:

Because ELO is based on WINS AND LOSSES, NOT KILLS AND DAMAGE TOTALS.

How is that difficult?

It treats people that does not contribute to the victory the same as those who brings it, how it this not ****ed up. How will it estimate the odds of winning then? It can put 12 superstars (skill wise) and 12 novice players on 2 separate sides but their ELO might be equal, the odds of winning are 50/50. You think it's fine?

Edited by kapusta11, 18 January 2015 - 03:03 AM.

[Escef]

kapusta11, on 18 January 2015 - 03:02 AM, said:

It treats people that does not contribute to the victory the same as those who brings it, how it this not ****ed up. How will it estimate the odds of winning then? It can put 12 superstars (skill wise) and 12 novice players on 2 separate sides but their ELO might be equal. You think it's fine?

You'd have to game the system pretty hard to keep a those ELOs roughly equal.

[cSand]

Praetor Knight, on 17 January 2015 - 05:13 PM, said:

Whenever I see ELO, I end up thinking about that band.

And Arpad Elo is who the rating system is named after.

edit: just FTR I find the MM treats me fairly well

Edited by cSand, 18 January 2015 - 03:14 AM.

[Spr1ggan]

Adiuvo, on 17 January 2015 - 07:05 PM, said:

No, that's not what it means. What it shows is a lack of, or inconsistent, ability to 'carry.' While you likely don't have an overall negative impact on your team with a 1.0W/L, that person also wouldn't have a consistent overall positive impact.

It's kinda tough to consistently carry in solo though. When in most of my drops my team will have a lot of olive greens that can barely find their way out of spawn. Oh and don't get me started on the amount of standard engine lights I see on my team.

The fact that someone is intended to carry their team pretty much means that the MM is seriously flawed.

Edited by Spr1ggan, 18 January 2015 - 04:25 AM.

[L3mming2]

my global W/L is 1.17 my higest W/L for a single mech (500+ matches) is 1.5
as a result its hell to lvl a new mech, you tend to get stompt 4 out of 5 times ...

ps i only pug and do only very few CW matches

Edited by L3mming2, 18 January 2015 - 07:41 AM.

[EekaBlitzer]

The solo queue seems to be working fine for me, with W/L at about 50% each.
The group queue, when I team up with a friend who has very similar MWO Kill ratio and W/L stats, is, however, completely terrible.
We are losing in about 80-85% of matches, but we are not encountering 12 man teams, its just that we seem to get thrown into a high number of 'fail' groups. We have tried using different weight category mechs, same category mechs and it does not seem to help. Its spoiling the game atm, and I cannot understand why the matchmaker should keep putting us in such matches.

[The Amazing Atomic Spaniel]

Spr1ggan, on 18 January 2015 - 03:26 AM, said:

The fact that someone is intended to carry their team pretty much means that the MM is seriously flawed.

I think it probably means that there were too few players available for the MM to come up with anything else. In that sense, the MM is working. The alternative is too have longer and longer waits while it hangs on hoping that more players become available within a narrower range of Elo scores.

Incidentally, one of the devs (Kar Berg?) said in a recent post that they actually see more 12-0 stomps when the team Elos are more closely matched than when they are not. I suspect that the mechanics of combat in MWO mean that if both teams are competent then it's very hard to come back from being even two mechs down - which is certainly my experience in pug land.

[Willard Phule]

mogs01gt, on 17 January 2015 - 04:53 PM, said:

It means the game is forcing you do take a loss. That isnt how ELO works. ELO is suppose to team you with equal level teammates and opponents. This will cause you to gradually gain more ELO to a point where you simply start to be 1.0 w/l.

MM in MWO tries to equalize the matches by adding in playes way below your ELO

You really think that, don't you?

You're wrong, by the way, but go ahead and keep thinking the MM puts you in with people close to your skill range.

Eventually, when you're not the guy being carried anymore...you'll realize you're the one doing the carrying.

[Feetwet]

Bishop Steiner, on 17 January 2015 - 05:01 PM, said:

while the overall effect may be the same, the method, is not.

At least for me, what I notice is massive swings. I'll go on a rampage with 20 or so games that are mostly wins, and by wins I mean stomping the competition , followed by the MM swinging to 20 or so matches where I get to be the one rolled into snail snot.

And mixed into those 40 games, will be, if I am fortunate, about 1/2 dozen really hard fought, close tight games.

The ones the MM should be trying to place you in in the first place, instead of going the "lazy" Elo YoYo way, and stacking the deck for and against you.

Some of that may be beyond PGI's help, depending on number of actively players in queue at the time of launch, the fact that some players may have their Elos artificially high or low for a number of reasons (I have seen more than a few prominent comp team members who played absolutely idiotically in Solo queue, often first dead, or with next to nothing to show, or very obviously waiting to vulture some kills,which says either they are somewhat carried on their teammates coattails, or some intentionally use solo drops to lower their Elos, which would then also lower the competition their teams face)

Regardless, winning in a stomp ain't all that fun, but losing to one definitely sucks.

+1 to this right here. This is my experience with the mm.

The only thing I would add is that a sub 100 game does not necessarily mean windowlicker. Sometimes you just take the wrong mech around the wrong turn. Just sayin.

S

[Navid A1]

I think BV and match score standard deviation from mean value should be part of the MM algorithm as a bias.

You call this a good match or a bad one? (it's from just 5 min ago)

Spoiler

[SaltBeef]

I saved my self the increase in blood pressure and just went for the premium time. I am not a Fan of the Phract anyway Cursed mech for me. Got the guerilla arms.

[Spr1ggan]

RocketDog, on 18 January 2015 - 04:49 AM, said:

I think it probably means that there were too few players available for the MM to come up with anything else. In that sense, the MM is working. The alternative is too have longer and longer waits while it hangs on hoping that more players become available within a narrower range of Elo scores.

Incidentally, one of the devs (Kar Berg?) said in a recent post that they actually see more 12-0 stomps when the team Elos are more closely matched than when they are not. I suspect that the mechanics of combat in MWO mean that if both teams are competent then it's very hard to come back from being even two mechs down - which is certainly my experience in pug land.

But still it's really ****** for the good players. For example in solo queue i get outskilled and completely decimated most of the time. I struggle to break 200 damage most days. I should be playing with the rest of the ******** while in solo queue. I should not be put in games with good players that will end up having to carry me and the other bads.

Edited by Spr1ggan, 18 January 2015 - 06:41 AM.

[Bishop Steiner]

Feetwet, on 18 January 2015 - 05:18 AM, said:

+1 to this right here. This is my experience with the mm.

The only thing I would add is that a sub 100 game does not necessarily mean windowlicker. Sometimes you just take the wrong mech around the wrong turn. Just sayin.

S

ah but according to 1337 logic, only bads make those mistakes in the first place.

[mogs01gt]

Willard Phule, on 18 January 2015 - 05:13 AM, said:

You really think that, don't you?
You're wrong, by the way, but go ahead and keep thinking the MM puts you in with people close to your skill range.
Eventually, when you're not the guy being carried anymore...you'll realize you're the one doing the carrying.

WTF are you babbling on about? Do you always troll threads and post random thoughts that pop into your head?

Edited by mogs01gt, 18 January 2015 - 10:36 AM.

[Onyx]

Feetwet, on 18 January 2015 - 05:18 AM, said:

+1 to this right here. This is my experience with the mm.

The only thing I would add is that a sub 100 game does not necessarily mean windowlicker. Sometimes you just take the wrong mech around the wrong turn. Just sayin.

S

Just to throw this out there: I can have bad games. Most often it's in an assault. My favorite is a river city skirmish where I'm spawned on the upper elevation on the "left" side of the map where the entire team pretends the 50kph assaults can keep up with their rush. Or it's a conquest on Caustic that pretends assaults can keep up with constant movement around the outside rim.

I actually got into an argument with an idiot who was mad that my 48kph non-elite dire wolf eventually got hit by the enemy team and died uselessly (148 damage game).

I did another game on Canyon where we had to do a retreat because the enemy did the most effective gamewinning tactic I've found in PUG games, which is to hit the enemy base, force a retreat out of the enemy team, and then pick off slow mechs on the way back to base. Think I only managed 12 damage there.

Damage is not, ever, a valuable or useful metric for rating a player. I can get really high damage levels by running a streak boat (though a streak boat can still contribute for a number of reasons). What's more relevant is if you strip off armor, destroy components, get kills, or things that can't be measured as readily like playing spotter or distracting the enemy and splitting them up.

People have good games just as much as bad, and even just trying to find the right spec can be a hard lesson in bad gameplay.

The only time you can reliably tell someone is a drool dispenser is if they start talking and spew forth absolutely horrible strategies and then blame the team or other players when their perfect plan of avoiding the enemy on conquest somehow doesn't pan out. Even then, you have to analyze what they said and why what they said is wrong, because not everyone who speaks up is actually bad, either, and even good players can get caught out and die uselessly. The game isn't so simple as to be so easy to assess a player's skill just by 1 metric.

Edited by Onyx, 18 January 2015 - 10:45 AM.

[Adiuvo]

Spr1ggan, on 18 January 2015 - 03:26 AM, said:

It's kinda tough to consistently carry in solo though. When in most of my drops my team will have a lot of olive greens that can barely find their way out of spawn. Oh and don't get me started on the amount of standard engine lights I see on my team.

The fact that someone is intended to carry their team pretty much means that the MM is seriously flawed.

Well yeah, it can be tough, which is why the average W/L isn't likely to be that high.

Most people aren't good enough to win ~80% of their games or whatever.

[Deathlike]

Tarl Cabot, on 17 January 2015 - 09:31 PM, said:

I wonder how some people would play if they knew the average team Elo for each drop?

I'd actually like to know my teammates Elo, so I know what I'm dealing with. Those that are newly playing this game are handled much differently from the people that are more or less where you thought they should be.

Of course, it won't work because that would also unwanted shifts in gameplay and causes other problems as well, but that's just what it is...

kapusta11, on 18 January 2015 - 03:02 AM, said:

It treats people that does not contribute to the victory the same as those who brings it, how it this not ****ed up. How will it estimate the odds of winning then? It can put 12 superstars (skill wise) and 12 novice players on 2 separate sides but their ELO might be equal, the odds of winning are 50/50. You think it's fine?

I would put it this way.

The guy that doesn't do the objective (we're talking not-Skirmish modes) will tend to lose more his share of games for not doing what needs to be done. The guy that is doing it as much as he could (like preventing a cap on Assault) will still get his fair share of losses, but that will be overcome with winning more often than not by preventing more of them over time.

For the sake of Elo.. if you do everything is required to win, you'll more likely to win more than not. Kills help, but actually getting the W consistently is a far greater factor. One would hope that kills would gradually improve over time... and that's not going to happen in a day.

Back when we had "CapWarrior", there's a certain point where straight out capping isn't going to work vs better teams... you'll have to eventually fight it out. So, there is a meaningful relationship to doing everything you can to do... however that may be.

Also, the 12 novices vs 12 elites usually favors the Elites in the Elo calculations, and generally is a very extreme and rare circumstance.

Edited by Deathlike, 18 January 2015 - 01:31 PM.

[Theodore42]

RocketDog, on 18 January 2015 - 04:49 AM, said:

Incidentally, one of the devs (Kar Berg?) said in a recent post that they actually see more 12-0 stomps when the team Elos are more closely matched than when they are not. I suspect that the mechanics of combat in MWO mean that if both teams are competent then it's very hard to come back from being even two mechs down - which is certainly my experience in pug land.

Awesome, I didn't know that. Makes perfect sense. If you've ever watched a chess match, and 1 player loses a pawn and can't take a pawn back, the commentators go crazy like 1 pawn is the end of the match. When I play chess it doesn't really matter if I am up or down a pawn, but a GM can exploit the weakness of losing just one pawn and turn it into a win.

Likewise, in a MWO match of high Elo players, if 1 player does something stupid and dies before he is able to affect the match how his Elo says he should, that turns into a huge advantage for the other team.

Also, my lowest win ratio on a mech is 1.08, so MM definitely doesn't make losing matches to force even ratios.

[Spr1ggan]

Adiuvo, on 18 January 2015 - 10:47 AM, said:

Well yeah, it can be tough, which is why the average W/L isn't likely to be that high.

Most people aren't good enough to win ~80% of their games or whatever.

True. That's why I left Lords. Not good enough for the solo queue let alone playing for one of the best teams in the game. I still score sub 100 damage games in solo on a regular basis.