465 replies to this topic

[Joseph Mallan]

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The proper course of action for this is not to nerf the Firestarters, but to buff all of the OTHER lights into comparative usable states.

This still would not help the players who just cannot hit small fast targets. And that is what this is about. Make it easier to kill the Firestarter.

I never EVER support this type of thinking. I am a let me find a way to get the job done person.

[Kjudoon]

It's simple. If I shoot a firestarter with enough damage to turn the CT of a Griffin into a canoe, I want that same shot to turn the firestarter inside out. But it doesn't. All I get from the FS is a "U Mad Bro?" and it legs me and runs away.

That's all I want. Proper hit registration when the computer says I hit. That's as much of a nerf as I want. Their piddly armor to register accordingly, not be some sort of stealth unpenetratium laminate with bollocksonium reinforcement.

[Joseph Mallan]

Kjudoon, on 24 January 2015 - 06:23 AM, said:

It's simple. If I shoot a firestarter with enough damage to turn the CT of a Griffin into a canoe, I want that same shot to turn the firestarter inside out. But it doesn't. All I get from the FS is a "U Mad Bro?" and it legs me and runs away.

That's all I want. Proper hit registration when the computer says I hit. That's as much of a nerf as I want. Their piddly armor to register accordingly, not be some sort of stealth unpenetratium laminate with bollocksonium reinforcement.

Smaller target. harder to actually hit when added to how fast it can move. When I actually hit a Firestarter with my 93 point Alpha... it just crashes. So yeah fix the HitReg then see if it is still a monster. But we both know once the HitReg is fixed some Firestarter Pilots will whine cause they are dying now.

[Ratpoison]

Joseph Mallan, on 24 January 2015 - 06:19 AM, said:

This still would not help the players who just cannot hit small fast targets. And that is what this is about. Make it easier to kill the Firestarter.

I never EVER support this type of thinking. I am a let me find a way to get the job done person.

Uh no, this is about balance, not making noobs feel better by handing them free Firestarter kills through nerfs.

I don't see what your point was supposed to be.

[Kjudoon]

Joseph Mallan, on 24 January 2015 - 06:28 AM, said:

Smaller target. harder to actually hit when added to how fast it can move. When I actually hit a Firestarter with my 93 point Alpha... it just crashes. So yeah fix the HitReg then see if it is still a monster. But we both know once the HitReg is fixed some Firestarter Pilots will whine cause they are dying now.

And that's my point something IS wrong with their hit boxes. When you're point blank (essentially) and they just overheated from their latest pulse laser alpha, they're not particularly hard to hit back with Pinpoint weaponry or pulses too.

And yes, they'll whine like a clanner meeting his first overquirked Thunderbolt and realizes his skills were purchased with Cbills or clan packs and he ain't all that.

[Joseph Mallan]

To me that is a different issue than the Mech needs Nerfed.

[Insects]

tortuousGoddess, on 24 January 2015 - 06:15 AM, said:

Every light has a blatant weakness EXCEPT for the Firestarters, which is what really makes them OP.

It does have a weakness, the torso deflection is terrible. It is very restricted on hills and poor at shooting over ledges.
Not good in a death from above roll.

Though its arms do mount more firepower than an entire spider, so not all bad news on uneven terrain.

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and the Clan lights are all much slower and more vulnerable.

Resistance pack has a gimped light too.
Seems to be a thing, I assume they dont want to make anymore fast lights because people cant aim at them so from now on all lights will be crippled to slow speeds with max engine restrictions, slower than some heavies
"Whaaa P2W new light killed me" etc.

[Kjudoon]

I am reminded when Palladium released the Rifts "South America 2" sourcebook and realized that everything there was massively overpowered. They had to go back and fix all the bad numbers for weapons and armor to rebalance with the game. Something may have to be done to specific mechs, not just the firestarter.

[Joseph Mallan]

joelmuzz, on 24 January 2015 - 06:46 AM, said:

It does have a weakness, the torso deflection is terrible. It is very restricted on hills and poor at shooting over ledges.
Not good in a death from above roll.

Though its arms do mount more firepower than an entire spider, so not all bad news on uneven terrain.



Resistance pack has a gimped light too.
Seems to be a thing, I assume they dont want to make anymore fast lights because people cant aim at them so from now on all lights will be crippled to slow speeds with max engine restrictions, slower than some heavies
"Whaaa P2W new light killed me" etc.

"The Spider was the first BattleMech produced by Newhart Industries and designed as a light reconnaissance and attack 'Mech"

A Spider was not designed to be a front line fighting Mech. Which is why it has limited space for weapons. It was a scout and harasser unit.

[Joseph Mallan]

Kjudoon, on 24 January 2015 - 06:48 AM, said:

I am reminded when Palladium released the Rifts "South America 2" sourcebook and realized that everything there was massively overpowered. They had to go back and fix all the bad numbers for weapons and armor to rebalance with the game. Something may have to be done to specific mechs, not just the firestarter.

Its just strange to me that we take a Mech with a "Specific" role and turn into something completely different.

Quote

Though most regiments contained a number of Firestarter 'Mechs, they were traditionally assigned at the company or regimental level rather than be attached to a lance, with the commander then deploying them to support an attack group or scout wooded areas.

[Ratpoison]

joelmuzz, on 24 January 2015 - 06:46 AM, said:

It does have a weakness, the torso deflection is terrible. It is very restricted on hills and poor at shooting over ledges.
Not good in a death from above roll.

Though its arms do mount more firepower than an entire spider, so not all bad news on uneven terrain.



Resistance pack has a gimped light too.
Seems to be a thing, I assume they dont want to make anymore fast lights because people cant aim at them so from now on all lights will be crippled to slow speeds with max engine restrictions, slower than some heavies
"Whaaa P2W new light killed me" etc.

I can't agree with that. Let me teach you a little trick I've been using for a long time in lights. Run full speed at a hill with an enemy behind it. Hit jumpjets and hold them. Invert throttle, continue holding jumpjets. When your firepoints peek over the hill, alpha strike and release jumpjets. Your mech will full stop and full reverse instantly, pulling you back behind cover. Congratulations, you did a full alpha on that mech over a hill and you were visible for less than a second, giving no chance to retaliate unless he predicts your move. This plus 4 firepoints on the arms makes me say the Firestarter is plenty strong on uneven terrain; once again being just as good or better than any other light.

[Kjudoon]

Joseph Mallan, on 24 January 2015 - 06:54 AM, said:

Its just strange to me that we take a Mech with a "Specific" role and turn into something completely different.

Yep. I wish all lights could not be tough enough to survive combat consistently with Heavy and Assault weight classes. But maps are too small, rewards are too low, and there's nothing really for them to do but play 'PT Boat on steroids'.

You need maps so big you cannot possibly find the enemy without scouting (about 10 times the size of Alpine Peaks or Sulpherous).

Edited by Kjudoon, 24 January 2015 - 07:02 AM.

[Sarlic]

I don't want bigger maps if like all maps up to now are poorly designed.
If we get bigger maps, yet poor design, nothing will help.
PGI should let the community gets involved with mapping, but they havent done it yet so far.

Edited by Sarlic, 24 January 2015 - 07:13 AM.

[Impossible Wasabi]

The Space Pope also thinks you would need to go beyond the 12 vs. 12 game size (both in player number and actual map size) for scouting to actually be a role.

For instance, if we had huge maps like Planetside 2 or the venerable Battleground Europe/WW2 Online, then a light lance for recon and hit/run would actually make sense. However, with maps the way they currently are and gameplay as it currently is, the value of stacking lights on your team decreases very quickly once you go over two (two light mechs can allow for some nice "wingman" tactics).

It is important to understand that in the current iteration of MWO, the value of a mech lies almost completely in its ability to kill or damage other mechs (some mechs gain a slight utility through ECM, but it's debatable if it is worth a loss in firepower, i.e. Raven 3L vs. Firestarter).

Edited by The True Space Pope, 24 January 2015 - 07:17 AM.

[Joseph Mallan]

The True Space Pope, on 24 January 2015 - 07:13 AM, said:

The Space Pope also thinks you would need to go beyond the 12 vs. 12 game size for scouting to actually be a role.

For instance, if we had huge maps like Planetside 2, a light lance for recon and hit/run would actually make sense. However, with maps the way they currently are and gameplay as it currently is, the value of stacking lights on your team decreases very quickly once you go over two (two light mechs can allow for some nice "wingman" tactics).

I hate to disagree with god's mouth piece, but back in the day on the 1st 3 maps, the Law had Scouts. They ran around the map while the rest moved to "position". Then the scout found the enemy, and boom detailed info of comp and direction was relayed. Its not teh games fault that many light pilots are skirmishers and not scouts.

[STEF_]

Do you wanna see my last 2 points compleating the challenge?




believe it or not 6 kills of 11 were done from behind, without those enemy pilots even realized I was f@#@#@# them from behind.
Never watching the hud? Or were they bots?

PGI please, Fs9 is fine. BUFF NOOBS a bit.

Edited by Stefka Kerensky, 24 January 2015 - 07:19 AM.

[Impossible Wasabi]

Joseph Mallan, on 24 January 2015 - 07:17 AM, said:

I hate to disagree with god's mouth piece, but back in the day on the 1st 3 maps, the Law had Scouts. They ran around the map while the rest moved to "position". Then the scout found the enemy, and boom detailed info of comp and direction was relayed. Its not teh games fault that many light pilots are skirmishers and not scouts.

No, it is actually the fault of the game that most light pilots are skirmishers and not scouts.

The problem with your example is that on most maps, you don't need to go on a dedicated recon run to find the enemy nor do you really need a light mech to check one of the two directions the enemy may come from.

Of course, scouts can be used as you say and that is something the Space Pope does, but in the end, most of his work is killing other mechs. That's to say that if the Space Pope spent most of his runs acting as a dedicated scout, he would lose more than he would win.

Edited by The True Space Pope, 24 January 2015 - 07:24 AM.

[Spr1ggan]

Kjudoon, on 24 January 2015 - 07:01 AM, said:

Yep. I wish all lights could not be tough enough to survive combat consistently with Heavy and Assault weight classes. But maps are too small, rewards are too low, and there's nothing really for them to do but play 'PT Boat on steroids'.

You need maps so big you cannot possibly find the enemy without scouting (about 10 times the size of Alpine Peaks or Sulpherous).

Basically Living Legends maps.

[Joseph Mallan]

The True Space Pope, on 24 January 2015 - 07:20 AM, said:

No, it is actually the fault of the game that most light pilots are skirmishers and not scouts.

Of course, scouts can be used as you say and that is something the Space Pope does, but in the end, most of his work is killing other mechs.

Then you don't have a good team then. Sorry Pope. We only needed 2 Scouts and 6 combat troops on those small maps. on a bigger map like alpine 2-3 good scouts would turn a match into a ROFLstomp.

[Impossible Wasabi]

Joseph Mallan, on 24 January 2015 - 07:23 AM, said:

Then you don't have a good team then. Sorry Pope. We only needed 2 Scouts and 6 combat troops on those small maps. on a bigger map like alpine 2-3 good scouts would turn a match into a ROFLstomp.

Pug stomping doesn't require anything but numbers. Against random pug players or groups, simply being on comms with one or two people means you win something like 75% of the time. So of course, if you roll with eight players, you should expect to stomp some scrubs. If you then use your numbers and the fact you can communicate to use some tricky tactics, you pretty much win 90% of the time without much effort.

The Space Pope would suggest you go watch some of the competitive teams play and see how long a light that decides to go on recon by itself survives or really how often they send out light mechs on scouting runs or how often light mechs are not used as skirmishers.

To clarify, the Space Pope is trying to argue that you don't really need to scout, all of the maps, even Alpine are small enough that with a team on comms, you can easily setup in one position and simply watch the possible directions of approach the enemy may take.

And again, can you be a dedicated scout as a light pilot? Sure, but you are removing firepower from your team by fulfilling said role, which again is why it is not an ideal use of a light mech. Again, this isn't to say it's not a possible to scout or that on rare occasions it cannot be useful, but in most games, you don't need to go on scouting runs in the sense that you should avoid combat in a light mech.

To summarize:

Solo drop in a Light Mech: You need to kill stuff because you can't rely on your team to use their mechs correctly

Group Drop:
A:In a small group, less than 4 players, you need to kill stuff because you can't rely on your team to do much
B:In a large group (more than 4), you win pretty much by default, but it is good if you kill/damage through skirmish style attacks to make it easier for your team
C:On a rare blue moon, you or a fast medium might need to go save the base or check a far away line of approach

Comp Drop/CW (involving organized teams): You need to be able to kill/damage stuff to ensure your team can trade well in the kills. Reconnaissance is not a huge area of focus, beyond establishing where the enemy is going (which does not require proper scouting most of the time, you simply check the two or rarely three directions they may attack from or choose to defend, often you can check these areas from vast distances, ergo, you don't need a light to get behind enemy lines to confirm).

So what we end up with is that as a light mech in almost every type of drop, you need to be able to skirmish and to do so well. Recon is a possible task, but given the small maps you rarely need to have dedicated scouts (by this I mean scouts who do not engage the enemy and focus on relaying coordinates) and often scouting mostly involves checking one potential area of approach (and thus can be done by almost any mech that goes at a decent speed).

Edited by The True Space Pope, 24 January 2015 - 07:46 AM.