1126 replies to this topic

[Xetelian]

Frostiken, on 15 April 2015 - 07:57 PM, said:

I don't think you thought that through very well. An M1 Abrams doesn't have 1.5 meters of armor SPREAD OUT across its front, it has 1.5 meters of armor across the entire thing. Pick a spot on the front of the turret, it will have the same thickness armor as the spot three inches to the left and right.

If my mech has 40 points of armor in the left torso, it should be broken down into small segments, each with 40 armor. If you hit one area with your AC20, it now has 20 armor. You fire again, and you hit just to the left. Now I have two weak points on my torso with 20 armor, and the rest of it has 40 still. Because you didn't hit them.

I honestly cannot figure out why you thought for even a second that 'spreading the armor' was at all what I was talking about, or how that would be a good idea whatsoever.

Sure, you would probably have to dial down how much protection armor itself gives you, but there's no rational explanation for why we're combining a ****** system designed for dice-rolling tabletop gameplay with a ****** system designed for tryhards and dropouts who were too terrible to play Counter Strike or Unreal Tournament, so they went to a game where the targets are the size of apartment buildings.

As a try hard drop out who can't handle Counter Strike or Unreal Tournament I take offense to this.

[NocturnalBeast]

Yeonne Greene, on 15 April 2015 - 08:59 PM, said:

Gauss rifles definitely have recoil. You are trying to accelerate a mass and, by Newton's Laws, there is a reaction equal in magnitude but opposite in direction to the force moving the projectile. The only reason the projectile moves is because you are more massive.

It's just like a conventional gun, but using electromagnetic forces instead of gas expansion to shoot the round.

Magnetism does not have mass, and the projectile is basically levitating and being "guided" through the barrel with next to no friction by the electromagnets, which have to exert very little force to move the projectile through. So yes, you are right there would be some negligible recoil, similar to what happens when you hold two magnets with the same polarity next to each other and let go of one (the other gets pushed with much greater force than is pushing back on the magnet that you are holding), but this "recoil" could be easily compensated for by the myomer bundles in the mech's arms / legs / torso.

[Kuritaclan]

Humm. Gauss is a kind of EM accelerator - but nobody should start to argue if there is recoil or there is non. If you bring in physic as we know with "conservation of momentum" we have massive energy's to handle. Thankfully this is a fictional future, where such problems are solved by advanced technology. If we start to mess up advanced tech with our understanding of materials it becomes ridiculous. For everyone who has a bit knowledge about physic (i hope i do, but if i run some numbers i come up with something like this below) and understand that this system has to work in a way, that no recoil is produced, otherwise it just evaporate the mech.

For example railgun: http://www.wissensch...?artikelID=0690 -
10m barrel - in mwo we have maybee 1m
100g projectile - in mwo it is much more
10km/s - at least the speed in mwo is slower
to speed up this prjectile it needs with our techstandards 8GigaWatt power - this is the avg power production of a US-Nuclear power plant (thx to the BattleTechUnivers Autors we have Fusion Engines)

The kinetic energy of a 2000m/s 100kg gauss round (using mwo stats and dont include some kind of storage for the round within the 1t ammo) is 1/2mv² = 0.5x100kg*(2000m/s)²= 200MJ - IF we use conservation of momentum and think of a Hollander with 35t (lightest mech available by chassi construction to handle a gauss) who get opposite acceleration by the Impulse it would be m(gauss)*v(gauss)=m(Hollander)*v(Hollander) the velocity of the hollander after fire the round is 5,7m/s what is somewhere over 500.000J recoil Energy to stop which is better understandable when you see it as a exlosion of 100 to 150g TNT which needs to be fully neutralized so that no damage would be done. Such forces arn't be controlled by our knowledge of physic. - And here we just see that recoil is no option for this weapon or the mech would be doomed/if there is recoil then there is a anti recoil mechanism. And furthermore everybody arguing with WW II like tech get stuck in nonsense/inconsistency to maintain such tech.

Edited by Kuritaclan, 16 April 2015 - 04:52 AM.

[ROSS-128]

Frostiken, on 15 April 2015 - 07:57 PM, said:

I don't think you thought that through very well. An M1 Abrams doesn't have 1.5 meters of armor SPREAD OUT across its front, it has 1.5 meters of armor across the entire thing. Pick a spot on the front of the turret, it will have the same thickness armor as the spot three inches to the left and right.

If my mech has 40 points of armor in the left torso, it should be broken down into small segments, each with 40 armor. If you hit one area with your AC20, it now has 20 armor. You fire again, and you hit just to the left. Now I have two weak points on my torso with 20 armor, and the rest of it has 40 still. Because you didn't hit them.

I honestly cannot figure out why you thought for even a second that 'spreading the armor' was at all what I was talking about, or how that would be a good idea whatsoever.

Sure, you would probably have to dial down how much protection armor itself gives you, but there's no rational explanation for why we're combining a ****** system designed for dice-rolling tabletop gameplay with a ****** system designed for tryhards and dropouts who were too terrible to play Counter Strike or Unreal Tournament, so they went to a game where the targets are the size of apartment buildings.

Your impotent rage and reliance on personal attacks aside, you're forgetting that BT/MW armor is not measured in thickness, it is measured in weight. Specifically, tons. A point is 1/32nd of a ton in MWO, and 1/16th of a ton in BT IIRC.

In BT, thickness is a side effect of concentrating a lot of weight in one place.

So taking those 60 points and multiplying it by the 10m surface area would give you 600 points of armor on the ST, which would weigh almost 20 tons. You've got two STs, so that's 40 tons of armor and you haven't even got to your CT, arms, or legs yet.

If you decided to fix this by multiplying protection per ton by the mech's surface area, it would ridiculously overbuff large mechs like the Dire Whale, King Crab, and Awesome. It would also shaft small mechs, like the Locust.

It also wouldn't make sense: why would light mech armor be as heavy as depleted uranium, while assault mech armor is light as a feather?

[Almond Brown]

Mystere, on 15 April 2015 - 09:38 AM, said:

stuff

With separate left and right arm reticules, and independent arms, I will almost have no need for convergence. <maniacal >

And I can hear it already. "My "independent" arms don't/won't "converge" tight enough!" WHINE QQ LOL!

[CK16]

Here is my solution....for exact pinpoint you must gain a solid lock (like if u would LRM's and Streaks"). That way the targeting systems fully can converge (though add a min range). IF you snap shot there is a chance your weapons wont be converged and the shots hitting separate locations and the spread depends on the distance that would be set say starting at 150m adding 50m up to 1200m like zeroing a scope so at ranges past that your weapons may actually cross and not hit anything this would require more awareness and gunnery skills for snipers and brawlers would need to think more about such effects as well. Instant convergence is pretty lame I will admit at least in other games like this snapshots that score a direct hit are RNG due to bloom of recital.

[Almond Brown]

LordMelvin, on 15 April 2015 - 12:28 PM, said:

They best suggestion I saw was to give weapons the same bounce you see when running around in third person. It wouldn't do much, but you'd need to come to a complete stop to get 100% perfect accuracy or be able to compensate for the sway of your mech at high speeds.

Counter point. Permanent sway can cause nausea in even the hardiest of players. It works in 3rd because 3rd is not meant to be the permanent battle field view. MWO is a 1st person game. Even the initial Jump sway was reduced due to such "sickening" effects. Thus, some would argue, a secondary cause of the current "Hover style Jets". "Prolific PopTarting Abuse" notwithstanding.

FYI. 99.9% of Players don't give a shite about the physical disposition of other players, but PGI has to and they seem to do just that. Why would I/anyone ever play any "Game" that makes me puke, even rarely? Puking is not FUN!

Quote

The other thing I'd like to see if weapons draw their firing arcs in a straight line from the weapon mount to infinity rather than trying to aim the beam/round toward the cross hair. I've seen some wonky stuff like lasers at a 45 degree angle to the emitter.

That is usually seen when a Pilot uses his max arm angle and your added viewing angle makes it look really bad. One can just say the lens at the end of the weapon pod can swivel so many degrees itself to achieve a apparent odd angle of fire.

Most Ballistics don't have a tail or leave a trail so they are not as noticeable.

P.S. All % values were achieved using the very well known "rectally computed" method.

Edited by Almond Brown, 16 April 2015 - 09:35 AM.

[Almond Brown]

Burktross, on 15 April 2015 - 05:26 PM, said:

CS:GO is practically about getting headshots, yet you not only have CoF but wild spray patterns. And I mean wild! Like, some guns will spray "7"s or "Z"s
But its not bad there.

And we can be quite certain, that on more than many an occasion, a Laser based Alpha drew many a "7's" "5's" or "Z's" (etc. etc.) on many a bobbing and weaving enemy Mech. So i guess one could say we already have that function in-game right?

And those who complain they get a lot of "Alpha Pinholes" drilled in them, perhaps they could try the "bobbing and weaving" method once and see how that works for them. lol

Edited by Almond Brown, 16 April 2015 - 09:51 AM.

[Mystere]

E Rommel, on 15 April 2015 - 05:46 PM, said:

The only thing "good" I could see coming of this is that suddenly LB-X ACs would be considered awesome, because their spread pattern is smaller than some of the cones people in this thread are suggesting.

See, you're now seeing the light.

There is logic in some of the suggestions here. People are just being blinded by their religious zeal against the RNG Devil.

[Mystere]

Almond Brown, on 16 April 2015 - 09:15 AM, said:

And I can hear it already. "My "independent" arms don't/won't "converge" tight enough!" WHINE QQ LOL!

30-inch+ Display + Google Glass Camera + Custom Software + Mouse Emulation = Near Pixel-perfect Convergence.

I wonder if that's going to be "legal".

[Gorgo7]

Frostiken, on 15 April 2015 - 07:03 PM, said:

Words.

HAHAHAHA! Take a break. Play Unreal tournament. You'll feel better.

[Ragtag soldier]

Kuritaclan, on 16 April 2015 - 02:42 AM, said:

Humm. Gauss is a kind of EM accelerator - but nobody should start to argue if there is recoil or there is non. If you bring in physic as we know with "conservation of momentum" we have massive energy's to handle. Thankfully this is a fictional future, where such problems are solved by advanced technology. If we start to mess up advanced tech with our understanding of materials it becomes ridiculous. For everyone who has a bit knowledge about physic (i hope i do, but if i run some numbers i come up with something like this below) and understand that this system has to work in a way, that no recoil is produced, otherwise it just evaporate the mech.

For example railgun: http://www.wissensch...?artikelID=0690 -

actually, the gauss rifle isn't a railgun at all, but a coilgun! see, it works like this: when a gauss slug is loaded, the GR holds it in a magnetic field at the back of the rifle, while the coil, a tightly wound series of powerful electromagnets attached to capacitors charges to fire. (this is why videogames seem to love making you hold down the button the charge a shot, but they shouldn't- if you actually did that and the safety cutoff failed the gun would blow itself up once the charge overloaded the capacitors!) once you fire on a target, the gun released the holding field and discharges the capacitors on the magnets in an effectively instantaneous series of powerful magnetic "pulls". the slug then goes streaking off faster than the speed of sound in responce to this sudden change in it's free-floating magnetic pull!

what this means is that a gauss rifle doesn't have much recoil- the projectile is where all the recoil WENT! like a slingshot, but with magnetic fields for the rubber band, see? coilguns are pretty cool.

[Dawnstealer]

It seems like the solution is that perfect convergence takes a little time. So the longer you hold the reticle on the target, the more pinpoint the convergence will be. If you have Pinpoint unlocked, this happens faster. If you snap-shot at something, the beams or ballistics just go out in a straight line from their firing point.

And that "pinpoint" time doesn't have to be something ridiculous: a second or two, max. Even that would be enough to stop the "MASSIVE GOD ALPHA " for most players.

[ROSS-128]

Ragtag soldier, on 16 April 2015 - 10:52 AM, said:

actually, the gauss rifle isn't a railgun at all, but a coilgun! see, it works like this: when a gauss slug is loaded, the GR holds it in a magnetic field at the back of the rifle, while the coil, a tightly wound series of powerful electromagnets attached to capacitors charges to fire. (this is why videogames seem to love making you hold down the button the charge a shot, but they shouldn't- if you actually did that and the safety cutoff failed the gun would blow itself up once the charge overloaded the capacitors!) once you fire on a target, the gun released the holding field and discharges the capacitors on the magnets in an effectively instantaneous series of powerful magnetic "pulls". the slug then goes streaking off faster than the speed of sound in responce to this sudden change in it's free-floating magnetic pull!

what this means is that a gauss rifle doesn't have much recoil- the projectile is where all the recoil WENT! like a slingshot, but with magnetic fields for the rubber band, see? coilguns are pretty cool.

The magnetic field would still push the coils back with the same force that it pulled the slug forward, and the coils would in turn push on the rest of the coilgun's housing.

So a gauss rifle has recoil, but that recoil isn't very relevant (unless it's mounted on something small enough that the recoil can knock it over, which a mech isn't) because its 4 second cycle time is more than long enough for the gun to re-acqure its alignment. If it was spitting out a dozen slugs a second, *then* the recoil would matter.

[Dino Might]

E Rommel, on 16 April 2015 - 10:58 AM, said:

The magnetic field would still push the coils back with the same force that it pulled the slug forward, and the coils would in turn push on the rest of the coilgun's housing.

So a gauss rifle has recoil, but that recoil isn't very relevant (unless it's mounted on something small enough that the recoil can knock it over, which a mech isn't) because its 4 second cycle time is more than long enough for the gun to re-acqure its alignment. If it was spitting out a dozen slugs a second, *then* the recoil would matter.

*Thumbs up* He's got it. Newtons laws. There will be the same total force back along the line of fire as there would be on a mech getting hit with the projectile right at the end of the muzzle (if completely inelastic collision). For the same reason a gauss hit doesn't knock a mech over or spin it around, it also doesn't knock over or spin around the mech shooting the round.

The total force is relatively small compared to the mass of a mech, so the resulting acceleration is relatively small, and would not be an issue for aiming given the cyclic rate of the gun (1 shot every 4 seconds).

Edited by Dino Might, 16 April 2015 - 11:03 AM.

[Almond Brown]

Mystere, on 16 April 2015 - 10:11 AM, said:

30-inch+ Display + Google Glass Camera + Custom Software + Mouse Emulation = Near Pixel-perfect Convergence.

I wonder if that's going to be "legal".

Can we get "weed" legal first, then who would give a shite if that rig was legal or not.

[LordMelvin]

Almond Brown, on 16 April 2015 - 09:28 AM, said:

Counter point. Permanent sway can cause nausea in even the hardiest of players. It works in 3rd because 3rd is not meant to be the permanent battle field view. MWO is a 1st person game. Even the initial Jump sway was reduced due to such "sickening" effects. Thus, some would argue, a secondary cause of the current "Hover style Jets". "Prolific PopTarting Abuse" notwithstanding.

FYI. 99.9% of Players don't give a shite about the physical disposition of other players, but PGI has to and they seem to do just that. Why would I/anyone ever play any "Game" that makes me puke, even rarely? Puking is not FUN!

For the weapon sway I didn't mean the camera. Just the crosshair. The camera already jiggles a little in first person anyway.

Give it a shot. Drop on a training match and roll around in 3rd person for a bit. Fire off some lasers. You'll notice that the beam traces a line that moves up and down with the motion of the mech. Then go back into 1st person and do the same. The lasers inscribe a perfectly level horizontal line even if you lock the arms. That doesn't make much sense.

Of course I totally understand motion sickness. The worst I ever get is a bad headache I thank the stars for that.

[Mystere]

Almond Brown, on 16 April 2015 - 11:20 AM, said:

Can we get "weed" legal first, then who would give a shite if that rig was legal or not.

It's not legal where you live?! Oh you poor little thing.

Edited by Mystere, 16 April 2015 - 12:47 PM.

[Frostiken]

Ed Steele, on 15 April 2015 - 11:16 PM, said:

Magnetism does not have mass, and the projectile is basically levitating and being "guided" through the barrel with next to no friction by the electromagnets, which have to exert very little force to move the projectile through. So yes, you are right there would be some negligible recoil, similar to what happens when you hold two magnets with the same polarity next to each other and let go of one (the other gets pushed with much greater force than is pushing back on the magnet that you are holding), but this "recoil" could be easily compensated for by the myomer bundles in the mech's arms / legs / torso.

PHYSICS DOES NOT WORK THAT WAY

E Rommel, on 16 April 2015 - 04:31 AM, said:

Your impotent rage and reliance on personal attacks aside, you're forgetting that BT/MW armor is not measured in thickness, it is measured in weight. Specifically, tons. A point is 1/32nd of a ton in MWO, and 1/16th of a ton in BT IIRC.

In BT, thickness is a side effect of concentrating a lot of weight in one place.

So taking those 60 points and multiplying it by the 10m surface area would give you 600 points of armor on the ST, which would weigh almost 20 tons. You've got two STs, so that's 40 tons of armor and you haven't even got to your CT, arms, or legs yet.

If you decided to fix this by multiplying protection per ton by the mech's surface area, it would ridiculously overbuff large mechs like the Dire Whale, King Crab, and Awesome. It would also shaft small mechs, like the Locust.

It also wouldn't make sense: why would light mech armor be as heavy as depleted uranium, while assault mech armor is light as a feather?

Once again, you're trying to apply asinine nonsense tabletop rules to a game format that has consistently, for the last fifteen years, proven that it doesn't work. You're concerned with this absurd 'reality' about playing with completely meaningless numbers than you are with the fact that I can shoot an Atlas in the crotch, and then shoot it again at the crown of its head, and yet both shots do subsequent damage as if I landed both shots in the exact same place.

Probably your most absurd argument is that you are constantly talking about the dimensions of mechs. NOTHING in the BT rules accounts for the stylistic sizes and designs of mechs. the Marauder's dorsal gun? It isn't a third arm, it's a 'side torso', and there is no provision for it being an easier target. As far as BT is concerned every single mech is literally the exact same dimensions shape and size.

If anything you are defeating your own point, because some mechs have "side torsos" that are outlandishly small, yet can pack a ton of armor on them. What, are they using magic armor that occupies less volume per ton just because your crappy rules say it can fit that armor on?

You can destroy a Timberwolf engine by shooting its ears, and you're here trying to apply ******** CBT nonsense? Where in the rules does it say Timberwolf side torsos are bigger, easier targets?

Edited by Frostiken, 16 April 2015 - 04:31 PM.

[Water Bear]

Ed Steele, on 15 April 2015 - 11:16 PM, said:

Magnetism does not have mass, and the projectile is basically levitating and being "guided" through the barrel with next to no friction by the electromagnets, which have to exert very little force to move the projectile through. So yes, you are right there would be some negligible recoil, similar to what happens when you hold two magnets with the same polarity next to each other and let go of one (the other gets pushed with much greater force than is pushing back on the magnet that you are holding), but this "recoil" could be easily compensated for by the myomer bundles in the mech's arms / legs / torso.

PhD student in math here. The guy you quoted was right, newton's laws dictate that to every action there is an equal but opposite reaction. A gauss or rail gun would have enormous kick. Just like you said, it's like holding a magnet next to an electro magnet (which has no magnetization initially) then putting a huge current through the elctro magnet to turn it into a very powerful magnet itself. Both magnets would feel a huge force.

*flies away*

Edit: *flies back in* The reason you think the force on the magnet you're holding (in your original example) is less is because the acceleration on your hand is proportional to the force divided by the mass of your hand / body. Since you weigh a lot more than the magnet you're accelerating, you don't feel much acceleration yourself.

*tries to spark jet pack. Fails. Hails taxi*

Edited by Water Bear, 16 April 2015 - 03:37 PM.