1126 replies to this topic

[Shae Starfyre]

Almond Brown, on 17 April 2015 - 10:25 AM, said:

Here is a cool small scale version. Not sure what a 2P coin weighs but puncturing a food can is impressive indeed. Now upscale so it fits a 80-100t Battlemech. LOL

https://www.youtube....k&v=BCEqppBWRLs



Damn. We will never know if UFO's are really real if you keep that up you know.

That Urbie was toast!

[Mystere]

Almond Brown, on 17 April 2015 - 10:25 AM, said:

Here is a cool small scale version. Not sure what a 2P coin weighs but puncturing a food can is impressive indeed. Now upscale so it fits a 80-100t Battlemech. LOL

https://www.youtube....k&v=BCEqppBWRLs

Meh! I much prefer this:

[Frostiken]

E Rommel, on 17 April 2015 - 10:25 AM, said:

BUH BUH BUH MUH ERRMER POINTZ

...ITS A GAME. YOU SEEM TO HAVE MISSED THE POINT I MADE CLEAR AT LEAST THREE TIMES NOW THAT MAKING THE GAME THEMATICALLY CORRECT IS BETTER THAN TRYING TO ADHERE TO CBT RULES EXACTLY, BECAUSE CBT RULES ARE CRAP.

Quote

If you add Ghost Armor to counteract the simple mathematical consequences of adding more sections, then it wasn't really the sections you wanted, it was the armor. And whether it's size or sections, Ghost Armor would be applying a different multiplier to each mech, with a bias towards larger ones with more sections.

I'm absolutely floored that you can't understand this. Yes, ghost armor is adding more armor. And yes, it *WAS* more sections I want, because it adds more OVERALL protection, while still allowing highly-skilled players with good aim to hit specific weak points on the mech. It's the overall protection of more durability due to most damage being splashed over smaller sections each with high durability COMBINED with both rewarding skill for being able to concentrate highly accurate shots. It also has the added benefit of making where you specifically put equipment matter, instead of just rolling dice when armor gets breached to decide whether or not your primary weapon becomes useless or not.

https://gfycat.com/MajorOnlyDog

Every section has 51 armor, down from 64 overall. Yeah, you're telling me that you're going to have no trouble burning through that little area next to the center torso where the XL engine lives, despite the new target being literally only 20% the size of the original side torso? Uh huh, right.

Lousy players with bad aim will splash their damage all over multiple subcomponents. Repeatedly alpha-striking the same little area on bigger mechs becomes far more difficult. Good players with precision weapons and superior aim MIGHT be able to smoke a mech slightly faster due to the somewhat lower per-section armor values, but those players will be few and far between.

Jesus christ what is wrong with you that makes this so ******* hard to understand? Adding ghost armor to larger mechs that have more subdivisions makes far more sense than having damage 'flow' through a section based on completely arbitrarily drawn damage zones.

Edited by Frostiken, 17 April 2015 - 11:13 AM.

[ROSS-128]

Frostiken, on 17 April 2015 - 10:49 AM, said:

http://ldaamerica.org/adults/

Bless your heart, you try so hard. I mean, I literally drew you pictures and you couldn't understand. At this point, it's just sad watching your eyes glaze over and lose focus, a bit of drool spills out of the corner of your mouth, and you repeat the same irrelevant garbage over and over again.


...ITS A GAME. YOU SEEM TO HAVE MISSED THE POINT I MADE CLEAR AT LEAST THREE TIMES NOW THAT MAKING THE GAME THEMATICALLY CORRECT IS BETTER THAN TRYING TO ADHERE TO CBT RULES EXACTLY, BECAUSE CBT RULES ARE CRAP.

It's okay, there's people who can get you the help you need.

If you want to see a failure of reading comprehension, you should look in a mirror: I have already addressed the possibility of attempting to "fix" your proposal via armor inflation. But of course, you continue to rely on personal attacks and impotent rage instead of actually bothering to apply critical thinking.

In that scenario it is not the proliferation of components that improved your surivability, as I have already proved that does not work. It is the armor inflation. And the level of armor inflation you propose is absolutely ludicrous, as well as not being applied equally across weight classes so that lights get the shaft while Assaults and Heavies, already the most popular classes in the game, get ridiculously overbuffed.

Plus, if you increased armor five-fold then every mech would be walking around with thousands of points of armor on it. What would that ridiculously huge level of armor inflation do to Ballistics, who aready have their effective damage per ton nerfed as a result of armor values already being doubled? Doesn't 3070 total armor points sound just a tad ridiculous?

And if instead you multiply the armor by the same value across the board and divide it into the same number of sections regardless of size, what would that do to Light Mech hitboxes when their sections are so tiny?

[Kuritaclan]

Frostiken, on 17 April 2015 - 10:49 AM, said:

I'm absolutely floored that you can't understand this. Yes, ghost armor is adding more armor. And yes, it *WAS* more sections I want, because it adds more OVERALL protection, while still allowing highly-skilled players with good aim to hit specific weak points on the mech. It's the overall protection of more durability due to most damage being splashed over smaller sections each with high durability COMBINED with both rewarding skill for being able to concentrate highly accurate shots. It also has the added benefit of making where you specifically put equipment matter, instead of just rolling dice when armor gets breached to decide whether or not your primary weapon becomes useless or not.

https://gfycat.com/MajorOnlyDog

Every section has 51 armor, down from 64 overall. Yeah, you're telling me that you're going to have no trouble burning through that little area next to the center torso where the XL engine lives, despite the new target being literally only 20% the size of the original side torso? Uh huh, right.

This ghost armor add up i and e- rommel do not favor, we would have out of the seen 51armor on the 5 parts more like 10 on 4 of them and one 11. If you then fire a alpha 30 alpha you definitly destroy this armor part and maybe all components housed within as critslots. - This is the surgical way to take out weapons of the oponent or go for the engine, if all critslots are in this one spot located - that is what e-rommel explaind in a downfall of time to death. - And therfore we need a adaption in the crit occupation of xl engines for example and the way the critslot system would work in first place. To prevent such an outcome.

E Rommel, on 17 April 2015 - 10:25 AM, said:

Still relying completely on personal attacks instead of even taking a second to think through the consequences of your ideas. Apparently armor is weightless now? Besides, if you read Kurita's post, you would notice that he acknowledged my point: that spreading armor across more component makes each individual component easier to destroy.

You should calm down a bit, as Frostiken too.

E Rommel, on 17 April 2015 - 10:25 AM, said:

The more sections you have, the more total points of armor you need in order to have enough points per section. It's quite simple. And while one head section embedded in an otherwise strong CT is hard to hit, if you cover the entire CT in head sections, then no matter where I hit the section that I hit is going to take damage.

If you divide the CT into a bunch of lightly-armored sections, it doesn't matter if I hit the upper-right section or the lower-left section. Whichever section I hit is going to buckle and the engine underneath is going to take damage. Same for STs, whatever subsection of the ST I hit, that subsection will buckle and whatever was inside it is toast. So mechs will lose combat capability more rapidly, fights will snowball more strongly in favor of whoever got the first alpha strike off, and TTK will go down.

Alphastrike at least high alphastrike is spread damage. If you followd the Discussion about ssrms for example a 5launcher C-SSRM6 crow do 60 damage spread on all bodyparts as now - if you go and change it into bodysections you would have have even more spread - Lasers in on alpha fired would melt through the smaller armor, and get the internals, but this does not say that actually he take out critical componenents as fast, if they are all over in the slots and not bound in taken damage togehter, if you hit one you hit all other. However if you use smaler weapons you will actually get not as much damage from a hardpoint itself. Sure it is risky with such a model, that alpha will become a issue, but this is mostlikely the problem if you link critical slots behind - if you make them independed to destruct and you need destroy all in order to disable a component the damage szenario would work, because if the part is laying under diffrent armor parts you need todestroy also those to reach the the other crits or you have to have the right angle to shot through the hole in first place and get the other crit slots of this part that way.

E Rommel, on 17 April 2015 - 10:25 AM, said:

It also introduces issues for arms and legs. If I destroy your upper arm, does it take the lower arm with it the same as a destroyed ST? If I fry your hip actuator, does it take the lower leg with it?

This would be up to discussion i guess. Cutting an arm is however not that easy. What at least get easier is the destruction of weapons in arms - but we have a issue there anyhow - looking at arms you can fit into ac20 - and the slots are occupied - comaring the size of arm vs the size of a st and fitting into a ac20 you have the same critslot occupation, but what is the right size as 3D model of the ac20? - destroying components if well sized in a 3d model is harder, as shooting a surface and claiming all what is hit then is a magical critslot, that you truely hit everytime your shot hits on/in this part.

E Rommel, on 17 April 2015 - 10:25 AM, said:

Dividing our mechs into more, smaller hitboxes simply doesn't have the effect that you think it will. Just like the Atlas being divided into components means I can kill it without having to chew through all 927 HP on the Atlas, dividing each component into sub-components will allow me to destroy the component without chewing through all 100-200 ish HP on that component.

Actually deviding it is a relifie for such weapons like the lbx- since if you peal the outer armor of a st with lasers and their beam duration, you now will notice how effective the spread of an lbx will grill your internal components faster, than pinpoint accuracy weapons can. Shoting a ppc 30 alpha with 3 ppc on a special location does damage the armor in this section and maybe 1 up 3 critslots and eventually the rear armor, but nothing more happens. And again taken size into account on a light after intruding through the armor section you may get the 3 critslots - on a asault it may only be one critslot behind a armorsection.

E Rommel, on 17 April 2015 - 10:25 AM, said:

And I certainly wouldn't mind having more components to destroy and more options about how I destroy those components. I just want to make sure people are aware that it would not improve their survivability. It would just result in mechs going down with more unblemished armor still left sitting on the mech.

Survivability is the main question. If you consider the engine as a big block behind a ct armor the model what is now is weak to high pinpoint alpha, but you have at least much armor to block the alpha - ify go down the rabit hole of armor section you have to have to spread the armor into smaller increments on said sections. Now if you say the eninge is on big blob and you can damage it fully via one of the sections than yes ttk is not very long expacialy with pin point accuracy - on the other hand - if you split the engine in critslots that you have to destroy separatly in order to kill the engine ttk could go up. And if you combine last mentioned variant with 3D-Models where a Std 60 Engine of a Urban mech is a coin on 1000m vs a XL375 of a TImber what has the size of a ordinary 500ml can at same range it will bring even more deep.

Edited by Kuritaclan, 17 April 2015 - 11:36 AM.

[ROSS-128]

Kuritaclan, on 17 April 2015 - 11:27 AM, said:

This ghost armor add up i and e- rommel do not favor, we would have out of the seen 51armor on the 5 parts more like 10 on 4 of them and one 11. If you then fire a alpha 30 alpha you definitly destroy this armor part and maybe all components housed within as critslots. - This is the surgical way to take out weapons of the oponent or go for the engine, if all critslots are in this one spot located - that is what e-rommel explaind in a downfall of time to death. - And therfore we need a adaption in the crit occupation of xl engines for example and the way the critslot system would work in first place. To prevent such an outcome.


You should calm down a bit, as Frostiken too.


Alphastrike at least high alphastrike is spread damage. If you followd the Discussion about ssrms for example a 5launcher C-SSRM6 crow do 60 damage spread on all bodyparts as now - if you go and change it into bodysections you would have have even more spread - Lasers in on alpha fired would melt through the smaller armor, and get the internals, but this does not say that actually he take out critical componenents as fast, if they are all over in the slots and not bound in taken damage togehter, if you hit one you hit all other. However if you use smaler weapons you will actually get not as much damage from a hardpoint itself. Sure it is risky with such a model, that alpha will become a issue, but this is mostlikely the problem if you link critical slots behind - if you make them independed to destruct and you need destroy all in order to disable a component the damage szenario would work, because if the part is laying under diffrent armor parts you need todestroy also those to reach the the other crits or you have to have the right angle to shot through the hole in first place and get the other crit slots of this part that way.


This would be up to discussion i guess. Cutting an arm is however not that easy. What at least get easier is the destruction of weapons in arms - but we have a issue there anyhow - looking at arms you can fit into ac20 - and the slots are occupied - comaring the size of arm vs the size of a st and fitting into a ac20 you have the same critslot occupation, but what is the right size as 3D model of the ac20? - destroying components if well sized in a 3d model is harder, as shooting a surface and claiming all what is hit then is a magical critslot, that you truely hit everytime your shot hits on/in this part.


Actually deviding it is a relifie for such weapons like the lbx- since if you peal the outer armor of a st with lasers and their beam duration, you now will notice how effective the spread of an lbx will grill your internal components faster, than pinpoint accuracy weapons can. Shoting a ppc 30 alpha with 3 ppc on a special location does damage the armor in this section and maybe 1 up 3 critslots and eventually the rear armor, but nothing more happens. And again taken size into account on a light after intruding through the armor section you may get the 3 critslots - on a asault it may only be one critslot behind a armorsection.


Survivability is the main question. If you consider the engine as a big block behind a ct armor the model what is now is weak to high pinpoint alpha, but you have at least much armor to block the alpha - ify go down the rabit hole of armor section you have to have to spread the armor into smaller increments on said sections. Now if you say the eninge is on big blob and you can damage it fully via one of the sections than yes ttk is not very long expacialy with pin point accuracy - on the other hand - if you split the engine in critslots that you have to destroy separatly in order to kill the engine ttk could go up. And if you combine last mentioned variant with 3D-Models where a Std 60 Engine of a Urban mech is a coin on 1000m vs a XL375 of a TImber what has the size of a ordinary 500ml can at same range it will bring even more deep.

Eh, you'd still be losing combat capability faster which means fights would snowball toward a conclusion more quickly. Most builds don't have a lot of empty crit space, so every time you get hit you'd be losing a weapon, a heat sink, some ammo (ouch!), something.

And I can avoid having to take follow-on shots by just grouping a whole lot of damage together. The visuals would certainly be amusing though, seeing sparks fly and components getting blasted off the enemy mechs every time I fire. I suppose if you get rid of damage transfer though, that would at least raise the possibility of a large alpha "wasting damage" by overkilling a single component, with the rest of the damage just going clean through the mech.

Meaning that suddenly raking lasers a little bit (but not too much) would be a good thing, so that you can take out more components and not just dump half your alpha into the ground after drilling clean through the enemy mech.

As far as calming down, as far as I can see you and I are having a fairly civil discussion on just what the implications would be, while Frosty over there is just pounding on his keyboard and flagrantly disregarding the code of conduct. *shrug*

[Kuritaclan]

E Rommel, on 17 April 2015 - 11:45 AM, said:

Eh, you'd still be losing combat capability faster which means fights would snowball toward a conclusion more quickly. Most builds don't have a lot of empty crit space, so every time you get hit you'd be losing a weapon, a heat sink, some ammo (ouch!), something.

sure but you rather like to lose components than the full mech within one alpha. I'm a bit worried about the bigger ac's and gauss or lrm20s, you can take out easier that way or maybee not if you follow the route you have to destroy all crit slots of the wapon in order to get rid of the firepower at all for example. But this needs simulation first in order to decide which way to take.

E Rommel, on 17 April 2015 - 11:45 AM, said:

And I can avoid having to take follow-on shots by just grouping a whole lot of damage together. The visuals would certainly be amusing though, seeing sparks fly and components getting blasted off the enemy mechs every time I fire. I suppose if you get rid of damage transfer though, that would at least raise the possibility of a large alpha "wasting damage" by overkilling a single component, with the rest of the damage just going clean through the mech.

That is the idea behind - beside of case and ammo - damage transfer is no option in this szenario you have to kill that what you can reach - fire 3 small laser to take out the component behind a open armor is the way to go and use the other to open up another armorzone to get rid of the components within those located crtical slots in the next salvo.

It also would need a new effort of maybee a glow around subcomponents so you can see what is within if shot the armor - just a example blue is the glow of dhs red those of weapons and ammo - yellow those of engine - green those of internals/equipment like bap etc. So if you see glowing it yellow on the open internal you notice you will hit the engine if you aim correctly.

E Rommel, on 17 April 2015 - 11:45 AM, said:

Meaning that suddenly raking lasers a little bit (but not too much) would be a good thing, so that you can take out more components and not just dump half your alpha into the ground after drilling clean through the enemy mech.

Well alpha is not the best idea, maybee on Erll where you spread your 1,5sec beam over the enemy to eat armor, and your firend with the lbx built nail down his internal and make him feeling bad running up against two mechs. But alpha warrior as we know it now and even sniping would be over or at least harder - spread damage weapon would actually have more impact on mechs with opend armor in many places but no damaged components for now. Also if you have a change in the heatscale from 100 down to maybee 30 - and more heat dissipation within a second, you would start to feel the need to effectivly aim. or you overheat firing to much damage into zones what are allready gone, but do the dmage over time to diffrent zones.

E Rommel, on 17 April 2015 - 11:45 AM, said:

As far as calming down, as far as I can see you and I are having a fairly civil discussion on just what the implications would be, while Frosty over there is just pounding on his keyboard and flagrantly disregarding the code of conduct. *shrug*

i can rage too if i'm not up the idea of sombody else supposing. Anyway if calmed down you both can argue no matter what. The best way is let the past post be past.

Edited by Kuritaclan, 17 April 2015 - 12:05 PM.