1126 replies to this topic

[Tahribator]

Reviving an 18 page long thread. What could go wrong.

[KuroNyra]

Tahribator, on 08 April 2015 - 01:37 AM, said:

Reviving an 18 page long thread. What could go wrong.

Better revive one who already had some interesting thing said than:
-Create a new one meaning all what was said before it lost.
- Shut is mouth about a major problem of the game since day 1.

[Quxudica]

KuroNyra, on 08 April 2015 - 01:20 AM, said:

I think it's more "Bad players want it to stay".

Quite possibly. It's also that the game has simply turned into something it wasn't originally supposed to be. MWO was supposed to be more towards the Simulation side of the scale, not an extreme Sim but definitely on that end. If the Scale consisted of:
ARMA >> War Thunder/Counter Strike >> World of Tanks/Planet Side 2 >> Battlefield >> Call of Duty
with Arma being a hardcore Sim and CoD being an arcade shooter, MWO was originally sold as falling on the Counter Strike side of things. This was to entail things like chassis based Role Warfare, considerate thought in weapon exchanges that took into account enemy weak spots, heat threshold, min/max range, and the importance of killing subsystems.


However the games damage model and heat system, combined with the almost completely open customization systems, pushed pretty much all of those initial design goals way down the rung of importance. Instead of getting crucial Sim features like an authentic and challenging recoil model like CS has, we wound up with CoD's hitscan bullet hoses (to use a comparison). The game devolved into "who can deal more damage first" instead of "Who can make smarter decisions from piloting to targeting to heat management". Things like Sub-component targeting are far less important that they were supposed to be. Nine times out of ten there is no point in trying to strip a mech of a dangerous weapon first (most of the time, barring special circumstances like dragons and wolverines) trying to do so will just cause you to take more damage than you should. It's much much simpler to just alpha strike ST's, CT's or Legs and outright kill the enemy mech and not worth trying to kill important equipment. (this is, incidentally, why crit seeking builds were trash for so long. TTK is so low there's no real need for them).

The final nail on the head is really the core game modes. Assault and Conquest have no depth or nuance to them. Objectives are arbitrarily placed on maps not really designed properly, which is why both modes almost always devolve into just another Skirmish.


So yes, part of it is "bad players" wanting to keep it, because it's just straight up easier to drop a 50 point alpha onto a mech than it is to worry about heat penalties, weapon selections and actually paying attention to subsystem targeting beyond just shooting the spot without armor. But part of it is also simply that MWO has been this way for so long it's developed a player base that never realized the game was supposed to be a sim in the first place and just wanted a slightly more involved Hawken.. which is really all MWO is these days.

Edited by Quxudica, 08 April 2015 - 02:13 AM.

[KuroNyra]

Quxudica, on 08 April 2015 - 02:09 AM, said:

wall of text

And it s*ck.

[Mycrus]

Just make arm lock selectable only outside of a match (just like dx9/dx11) implementation and then your good...

[KuroNyra]

Mycrus, on 08 April 2015 - 02:56 AM, said:

Just make arm lock selectable only outside of a match (just like dx9/dx11) implementation and then your good...

Doesn't change anything.

Arm lock allow for pin-point convergence directly.
Arm unlock keep the pin-point convergence possible.

What need to be done is to make that "pin-point" on the exact same dot much more difficule to achieve, currently. It's closer from a Point'n'Click than a Battlemech game.

[Ilyena Natarescu]

operatorZ, on 07 April 2015 - 02:31 PM, said:

Yes! Nice work on the 3 month old zombie thread...

I think I missed the last timestamp when I commented. Oops :x But I do think it's a problem, and there was a good amount of decent discussion in here, so it seemed like commenting would make more sense than starting up a new thread.

I was piloting my Locust (shut up, don't laugh at me) and rounded a corner, bumping into a Dire Wolf. Despite the fact that no weapon on it could feasibly hit me, its guns were somehow able to alpha me to death in one volley. And no, it didn't twist so that one barrel could poke me in the nose. We stared at one another with a second awkward silence before I got blown away.

Convergence isn't a problem. Perfect, instantaneous, pinpoint convergence is the problem.

Edited by Ilyena Natarescu, 08 April 2015 - 04:01 AM.

[Bacl]

Even if yo try to compare MWO to World of tanks (WoT) for instance, Wot will be just more forgiving than MWO for few reasons:

- Cone of fire, either to try to got for a quick hit and have more chances to miss your target completly or you expose yourself ( camouflage not being considered here cause not all tank really benefits from it) and take the time to aim your shot.

-Armor, depending on the penetration of your, the armor of your target and the and angle of the enemy tank your shell have a chance to actually bounce off your target doing absolutly no damage at all and it is frustrating on top of that!


MWO allows us to go for full alpha i nuke your face build, with perfect convergence and no ''bounce'' effect to save your pelt if anything. When yuo get spotted and a mech is watching you in the eyes well take it like a man!

This been the main problem for MWO since the beginning, not boating, not the PPC, gauss , lasers or the LRM (forget i mention these)... Even the builds are not in cause since if you specialise in sniping well in close range with a light mech harrassing you will give you a lot of trouble or simply put you out of your misery, meanwhile someone with multiple weapons covering different ranges will be like a Jack of all trades but master of none.


Convergence need to be a mechanic, let it focus, if you move fast or jump well your reticule is wide so good chances to miss, you expose yourself and take your time to aim to hit the other guy where it hurts then you deserve pin point accuracy. Hell with that system you could take away the damn ghost heat and even bring the poptrats back! Jumping was always in the lore and it should be here, the poor implementation however almost killed the game

[Kh0rn]

Quxudica, on 08 April 2015 - 02:09 AM, said:

Quite possibly. It's also that the game has simply turned into something it wasn't originally supposed to be. MWO was supposed to be more towards the Simulation side of the scale, not an extreme Sim but definitely on that end. If the Scale consisted of:
ARMA >> War Thunder/Counter Strike >> World of Tanks/Planet Side 2 >> Battlefield >> Call of Duty
with Arma being a hardcore Sim and CoD being an arcade shooter, MWO was originally sold as falling on the Counter Strike side of things. This was to entail things like chassis based Role Warfare, considerate thought in weapon exchanges that took into account enemy weak spots, heat threshold, min/max range, and the importance of killing subsystems.


However the games damage model and heat system, combined with the almost completely open customization systems, pushed pretty much all of those initial design goals way down the rung of importance. Instead of getting crucial Sim features like an authentic and challenging recoil model like CS has, we wound up with CoD's hitscan bullet hoses (to use a comparison). The game devolved into "who can deal more damage first" instead of "Who can make smarter decisions from piloting to targeting to heat management". Things like Sub-component targeting are far less important that they were supposed to be. Nine times out of ten there is no point in trying to strip a mech of a dangerous weapon first (most of the time, barring special circumstances like dragons and wolverines) trying to do so will just cause you to take more damage than you should. It's much much simpler to just alpha strike ST's, CT's or Legs and outright kill the enemy mech and not worth trying to kill important equipment. (this is, incidentally, why crit seeking builds were trash for so long. TTK is so low there's no real need for them).

The final nail on the head is really the core game modes. Assault and Conquest have no depth or nuance to them. Objectives are arbitrarily placed on maps not really designed properly, which is why both modes almost always devolve into just another Skirmish.


So yes, part of it is "bad players" wanting to keep it, because it's just straight up easier to drop a 50 point alpha onto a mech than it is to worry about heat penalties, weapon selections and actually paying attention to subsystem targeting beyond just shooting the spot without armor. But part of it is also simply that MWO has been this way for so long it's developed a player base that never realized the game was supposed to be a sim in the first place and just wanted a slightly more involved Hawken.. which is really all MWO is these days.

And this is why MWLL has become my maingame It has more simulation aspects too it what MWO should of been. Untill I see a shift if ever MWLL will be my mechwarrior game.

[Shae Starfyre]

Just remove arm lock; this will cause slight recticule dysfunction (they bob a bit in and out of centering); this will cause a divergence of convergence unless you take your time to let them line up...on a non-moving target; it is also a perception issue when trying to line up on a target - seen any lights lately without Arm-Lock; almost everyone I see has arm lock; almost.

Once a target is moving and you are moving, and you do not play with arm lock, there is already a convergence issue; at least between torso and arms.

I know a lot of people play with or against that with torso only weapons, but they usually lock there arms so the aiming thingy doesn't distract them when the arm circle doohicky moves away from the torso aiming thing-a-ma-job.

I just wish they would take that away for some testing.

Next thing they need to add is the arms to bounce every so slightly when the mech moves further causing convergence. Causes the pilot to fight against the machine to aim, and creates under panic a cof effect.

I always play with my arms unlocked, and there are many builds that I have to line that shot up right or my torso mounted weapon will not hit where my arms are aimed.

Arm lock is the first offender of this issue.

So many examples; Direwolf 6 UAC5 build; you don't arm lock that, that's time to aim, let alone, all of a sudden you have to turn and raise your aim up, and suddenly you broke convergence, and your torso weapons are hitting the side of a hill and your arms are hitting the target.

It's a rediculous feature, and many convergence issues would be toned down with it's removal.

It will increase TTK.

I am shocked that this is still in the game, actually.

Aaaannnnnd, if you have to lead a target, there is already a convergence issue there more so.

Edited by Aphoticus, 08 April 2015 - 06:07 AM.

[Quxudica]

Aphoticus, on 08 April 2015 - 05:50 AM, said:

Just remove arm lock; this will cause slight recticule dysfunction (they bob a bit in and out of centering); this will cause a divergence of convergence unless you take your time to let them line up...on a non-moving target.

Once a target is moving and you are moving, and you do not play with arm lock, there is already a convergence issue; at least between torso and arms.

I know a lot of people play with or against that with torso only weapons, but they usually lock there arms so the aiming thingy doesn't distract them when the arm circle doohicky moves away from the torso aiming thing-a-ma-job.

I just wish they would take that away for some testing.

Next thing they need to add is the arms to bounce every so slightly when the mech moves further causing convergence. Causes the pilot to fight against the machine to aim, and creates under panic a cof effect.

Armlock certainly exacerbates the problem, but removing it won't even come close to fixing anything. Convergence has been an issue for longer than armlock has been an in game option.

[Dolph Hoskins]

In short I think arm mounted weapons backed by actuators should be able to have accurate convergence within said weapons effective range with decreasing levels of accuracy/convergence out to maximum range and beyond.

Also subsystem aiming references on the HUD for weapons that are mounted in similar hard points and weapons with unique firing patterns would be nice. For example any lasers mounted in one portion of a torso would have their own aiming reference aside from weapons in other non-movable locations, and weapons such as ballistics would have windage and range finding increments fitting to the weapon.

What do I think the chances of such an involved aiming and tracking system making it into the game are? About 0.00

[Weeny Machine]

Bacl, on 08 April 2015 - 05:15 AM, said:

MWO allows us to go for full alpha i nuke your face build, with perfect convergence and no ''bounce'' effect to save your pelt if anything. When yuo get spotted and a mech is watching you in the eyes well take it like a man! </p>

I totally disagree. MWO has a thing called "hitreg". Take one of my fights today for example (note all shots were point blank at 80m at CT with no twisting involved) 3 * AC/20 + 3 * 3ML = 49 damage according to MWO's hitreg and not 105 dmg. Say again that there is no bounce effect grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr

Edited by Bush Hopper, 08 April 2015 - 05:59 AM.

[Shae Starfyre]

Quxudica, on 08 April 2015 - 05:52 AM, said:

Armlock certainly exacerbates the problem, but removing it won't even come close to fixing anything. Convergence has been an issue for longer than armlock has been an in game option.

But it slowed down the aim time back then; I was there.

Unless you are just referring to torso weapons on one side converging. Sounds more a feature of that particular mech design.

If you have weapons in all four locations, no arm lock, your moving and they are moving and you have to lead....there is no perfect convergence in this game.

Perfect convergence is standing still and firing at a still target that you have targeted (pressed R) and no one moves, and you fire.

Even with arm lock, if any lead is required, there is a slight chance that your arm to torso weapons mis-align.

So; half this argument would be doused removing arm lock; the crutch has to go before EVEN looking at any other mechanic.

I spend hours just standing there (to the determinent of my team I must admit) and watch lead shots of four location weapons in and out of arm lock, and I see what happens. There is already a slight degree of non-convergence. Not so much when the arms are locked, is the point.

Lasers are a different story; but they should have a high degree of inherent accuracy in so much as they are traveling at the speed of light; and because of the near inability to maintain them on a specific location, I am not so concerned about this.

Edited by Aphoticus, 08 April 2015 - 06:20 AM.

[Tim East]

Aphoticus, on 08 April 2015 - 05:50 AM, said:

Just remove arm lock; this will cause slight recticule dysfunction (they bob a bit in and out of centering); this will cause a divergence of convergence unless you take your time to let them line up...on a non-moving target; it is also a perception issue when trying to line up on a target - seen any lights lately without Arm-Lock; almost everyone I see has arm lock; almost.

Once a target is moving and you are moving, and you do not play with arm lock, there is already a convergence issue; at least between torso and arms.

I know a lot of people play with or against that with torso only weapons, but they usually lock there arms so the aiming thingy doesn't distract them when the arm circle doohicky moves away from the torso aiming thing-a-ma-job.

I just wish they would take that away for some testing.

Next thing they need to add is the arms to bounce every so slightly when the mech moves further causing convergence. Causes the pilot to fight against the machine to aim, and creates under panic a cof effect.

I always play with my arms unlocked, and there are many builds that I have to line that shot up right or my torso mounted weapon will not hit where my arms are aimed.

Arm lock is the first offender of this issue.

So many examples; Direwolf 6 UAC5 build; you don't arm lock that, that's time to aim, let alone, all of a sudden you have to turn and raise your aim up, and suddenly you broke convergence, and your torso weapons are hitting the side of a hill and your arms are hitting the target.

It's a rediculous feature, and many convergence issues would be toned down with it's removal.

It will increase TTK.

I am shocked that this is still in the game, actually.

Aaaannnnnd, if you have to lead a target, there is already a convergence issue there more so.

A good number of mechs come with a sort of auto-armlock. The Locust, for example since you mention lights, does not have any lateral arm movement, so it is almost as if it has arm lock since at any non-ridiculously vertical engagement you'll see your torso weapons meet your arm ones. Blaming arm lock is a little silly when it is something that it actually makes sense for mechs to be able to do. The torso-mounted magically instantly-converging weapons on some kind of ultra-tech mounts connected to a very fast computer connected to a rangefinder are considerably less sensible.

The more I think about it, the more I like the idea of torso-mounted weapons just automatically being set by your tech prior to battle to converge at the end of their first range increment and arm weapons maintaining convergence like we have now but with a slight delay to simulate the arms moving. It makes sense, and things making sense is a good place to start for a sim game.

[Dimento Graven]

KuroNyra, on 08 April 2015 - 12:52 AM, said:

Talking about biased point of view.

Yeah, the concept of someone who actually knows how to aim to actually wanting what he's got targeted to NOT be hit...

That's just... Stupid.

As opposed to the group of people who fall under one of these categories:

1. Lacks the skill to aim/doesn't care about aiming.
2. SSRM/LRM user, who is used to putting little circle in big box, waiting for big circle, and pulling trigger for "magic" to happen.
3. Those who would LOVE to aim, but actually lack the computer power to effectively play this game at that level.

Quote

There's thousands of players here, some who you could kick there ass, and the next morning they kick YOUR ass.

There's already good players who have complained about the instant-pin-point convergence. And thus since the Closed Beta, but I suppose no. It's not enought for you, because after all.

First off, "instant-pin-point" convergence is a myth. ANYONE who has played this game at an appropriate level knows this. Quickly change targets from near to far, or vice versa, and fire and see what happens. About 90% of the time not all the weapons converge on the same point. Many is the time I've had weapons converge behind the target, passing the rounds on either side, not touching the 'mech.

Convergence IS fast. It's NOT instantaneous.

Please dissuade yourself of that myth.

Quote

It was what think ONE guy among a majority YOU consider to be "good" that got the right to speak... Wait, why does it sound completly stupid? Ho yeah! Because it is!

Considering your sentence structure makes it kind of difficult to figure out what you're trying to say here, I dunno... Anyway, should we allow players on the lower end of the scale to dictate how game mechanics work?

Um... No.

We have enough real life examples of the lowest common denominator setting bars and the results there of to know how much of an actual travesty that sort of silliness is.

Quote

Pin-Point convergence was always a problem in the Mechwarriors games.
Others games had way to make him less of a game breaking stuff. Collision, shock by heavy hit completly moving your aim away and you had to re-aim again. (was an epic thing on MW4)

Something NEED to be done about Pin-Point convergence, from a lore point of view, it's something that could not happen even with the Clan Technology, even they had to wait a few second to let all there weapon being on the target.
The books prooved it countless of time. The rules for the weapons were made because the pin-point convergence wasn't existent in the tabletop games.

But since the very first mechwarrior game, it has been a problem. And yet some blocked guy refuse to see it while it is crystal clear.

See, this is why have absolutely NO respect for the anti-convergence crowd, you're not even really conceptually aware of what you're REALLY angry at.

What are you REALLY angry at, you might ask?

It should be very obvious, it is to anyone who understands how the game functions and has been consciously aware of the power creep.

THIS, is what you're REALLY angry at:

The absolute lack of any real consequences for multiple alphas of just about every weapon system in this game, be it PPFLD or gobs and gobs of missiles spewed all at once.

WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAY back before the introduction of "ghost heat" we had lots of builds with 6 PPCs, 8 large pulse lasers, etc, and people were able to fire as many as 3 alphas as quick as the weapons would reset, and not have to worry about any of the heat effects we all grew up with in other variations of this game.

They added some damage occurring AFTER shutdown, later, and "ghost heat", and now power creep with "quirks" is eliminating "ghost heat" in a lot of builds.

If, instead a 'mech that shot an alpha that generated 50% of his total capacity of heat, there's a possibility of shut down, loss of movement, and maybe some 'cockpit shake' to simulate the pilot/gunnery modifiers of an actual heat scale, this wouldn't be so much of a problem.

As it is we've got a majority of builds where people just vomit lasers, ballistics, and missiles with little repercussion.

The fact that lasers and ballistics can be aimed only exacerbates the issue of zero heat penalties.

Edited by Dimento Graven, 08 April 2015 - 06:36 AM.

[Quxudica]

Aphoticus, on 08 April 2015 - 06:12 AM, said:

But it slowed down the aim time back then; I was there.

Unless you are just referring to torso weapons on one side converging. Sounds more a feature of that particular mech design.

If you have weapons in all four locations, no arm lock, your moving and they are moving and you have to lead....there is no perfect convergence in this game.

Perfect convergence is standing still and firing at a still target that you have targeted (pressed R) and no one moves, and you fire.

Even with arm lock, if any lead is required, there is a slight chance that your arm to torso weapons mis-align.

So; half this argument would be doused removing arm lock; the crutch has to go before EVEN looking at any other mechanic.

I spend hours just standing there (to the determinent of my team I must admit) and watch lead shots of four location weapons in and out of arm lock, and I see what happens. There is already a slight degree of non-convergence. Not so much when the arms are locked, is the point.

Lasers are a different story; but they should have a high degree of inherent accuracy in so much as they are traveling at the speed of light; and because of the near inability to maintain them on a specific location, I am not so concerned about this.

Removing armlock only diminishes the problem amongst the lower skilled players that can't keep their reticule steady. It would have an impact yes (and armlock was only ever supposed to be a new player aid option, not aiming crutch..) but the games core problem would still exist. Ideally convergence for most mechs should function similar to how the Crabs arm cannons work, they are slightly flared so if you want to hit the same spot at range reliably you have to aim with one arm first and then the other.

This design should be how all mechs are in my view, some mechs can have better convergence than others (some may specifically have better arms, some better torsos) but generally speaking if you fire a full alpha at the target the result should be bathing most of the targets torso in weapons fire, not getting every shot on the same target location with such relative ease - removing armlock doesn't prevent this from happening, it just increases the difficulty slightly (and that increase will varry widly based on weapon type and mech. some would see almost no change at all without armlock).

The ultimate goal should be returning the Alpha Strike to the status of fight finisher, desperate all in or hit and run attack. Accuracy should come when firing fewer weapons at a time, burst damage should come from Alphas. If Alpha's have both perfect accuracy and the best burst damage, then naturally everything in the game is going to revolve around it. Right now the only reason to not Alpha strike is if you are close to over heating, or peeking around the corner. In every other situation Alpha Strike is the superior option and that is the crux of the problem that needs to be solved.

[Weeny Machine]

Dimento Graven, on 08 April 2015 - 06:33 AM, said:

Yeah, the concept of someone who actually knows how to aim to actually wanting what he's got targeted to NOT be hit...

</p>I am sorry but what is your problem: reading comprehension, intentional disregarding of what is said?No one says you should miss. It is about NOT hitting the SAME spot under certain circumstances. Got it?And your comment about LRMs cracks me up. Doing well with LRMs isn't so easy. However, I bet you boat lasers and think that's the epitome of skill

[LordBraxton]

Dimento Graven, on 08 April 2015 - 06:33 AM, said:

/snip snip

I agree with this post, except im not as adverse to a cone of fire.

heat scale needs to come first though, because I think the cone of fire should be implemented as a punishment for running hot.

[Shae Starfyre]

Quxudica, on 08 April 2015 - 06:45 AM, said:

Removing armlock only diminishes the problem amongst the lower skilled players that can't keep their reticule steady. It would have an impact yes (and armlock was only ever supposed to be a new player aid option, not aiming crutch..) but the games core problem would still exist. Ideally convergence for most mechs should function similar to how the Crabs arm cannons work, they are slightly flared so if you want to hit the same spot at range reliably you have to aim with one arm first and then the other.

This design should be how all mechs are in my view, some mechs can have better convergence than others (some may specifically have better arms, some better torsos) but generally speaking if you fire a full alpha at the target the result should be bathing most of the targets torso in weapons fire, not getting every shot on the same target location with such relative ease - removing armlock doesn't prevent this from happening, it just increases the difficulty slightly (and that increase will varry widly based on weapon type and mech. some would see almost no change at all without armlock).

The ultimate goal should be returning the Alpha Strike to the status of fight finisher, desperate all in or hit and run attack. Accuracy should come when firing fewer weapons at a time, burst damage should come from Alphas. If Alpha's have both perfect accuracy and the best burst damage, then naturally everything in the game is going to revolve around it. Right now the only reason to not Alpha strike is if you are close to over heating, or peeking around the corner. In every other situation Alpha Strike is the superior option and that is the crux of the problem that needs to be solved.

I play mostly mechs where things like what the crab does happens; so I am always seeing oddities like that. So, my view point is biased, and not meant to call out all mechs.

I still think, arm lock is the first hurdle. Take it away, and then start looking at the other aspects; I think if it remains, any other fix or change would be mooted by the arm lock (in thoery and conjecture).