480 replies to this topic

[Appogee]

So...

Fictional factions in a fictional universe are asking to be protected from the other fictional faction members who are aren't observing fictional treaties with other fictional factions.

That's the perceived problem...?

If a fictional faction has members who for whatever reason don't want to observe fictional alliances then what is the harm, and why should PGI have to do anything about it?

If we need some sort of fictional fluff to help us accommodate the perverse or disloyal twists of human nature, then let's observe that a unit appears to have gone rogue, or gone under cover, or is running a false flag operation, or is being run by a delusional madman, whatever. These all have precedents not only in lore but also in real life.

Finding out is part of the fun, and none of us should be running to the omnipotent gamemasters to sort it out for us.

We're not actually playing out a script here. Stuff will happen and fictional factions should just deal with it.

Edited by Appogee, 21 January 2015 - 08:43 AM.

[Joseph Mallan]

Dimento Graven, on 21 January 2015 - 08:27 AM, said:

Agreed there are bigger issues, for now.

However, once planets are actual tangible commodities with benefits for an entire faction, this sort of activity with what are virtually throwaway accounts is going to be extremely disruptive.

Due to the complexity of the issue PGI should start planning and designing mechanisms to address it NOW, rather than waiting until later.

Your MechWarrior Forum account does not activate til you first log in. My Member since date is one week after I created the account for Anton cause I didn't sign in here til I had a week of grind in.

[operatorZ]

maybe this is why some other MMO's have strict rules against alt accounts......

[Dimento Graven]

Appogee, on 21 January 2015 - 08:36 AM, said:

Really...?

Fictional factions in a fictional universe are asking to be protected from the other fictional faction members who are aren't observing fictional treaties with other fictional factions...?

Really...?

If a fictional faction has members who for whatever reason don't want to observe fictional alliances then what is the harm, and why should PGI have to do anything about it?

/scratching head

It's like this:

If I were to do the same on this account, I could be kicked from the RRB, banned from their TS servers, the people in charge of the RRB could work with other Davion units to ensure I'm not picked up in another unit (after all who would want me if I'm doing nothing but attacking allies?) and ban me from other TS servers.

Soon, I'm solo lone wolf. Maybe I could join another faction's units, but again, who would want me as there'd be a known risk of me going rogue and attacking THAT faction's allies.

However, when an entire team of people with THROW AWAY accounts do the same, no big deal, no need to worry about reputation or any consequences. It screws over Steiner? F'EM WHO CARES I DO WHAT I WANT AND NO ONE CAN TOUCH ME!

Seems a bit... I dunno... Non-realistic to me. You 'this is war and spy stuff happens in war' advocates forget that in 'real war' there are consequences to being a spy. They can be caught, shot, and killed, problem solved.

This game doesn't allow us the same level of consequences.

If these morons were actually risking anything I'd not be so concerned, but there is little to no risk for them and once planets have values this becomes a BIG deal.

Edited by Dimento Graven, 21 January 2015 - 08:45 AM.

[Dimento Graven]

Joseph Mallan, on 21 January 2015 - 08:38 AM, said:

Your MechWarrior Forum account does not activate til you first log in. My Member since date is one week after I created the account for Anton cause I didn't sign in here til I had a week of grind in.

The account wasn't searchable until after I played a match with it AND had visited the forums.

Perhaps it's a timing issue, or actually a combination of doing both, but that is what I observed with my testing.

[Harathan]

From the latest Town Hall:

Quote

"In regards to lore based alliances, such as the FedCom, there are no plans to enforce them. Russ prefers to leave it a player driven political system."

Sounds to me like PGI are entirely in favour of players *being* the Factions, since they don't want to GM it themselves. That being the case, they need to give us the tools to so.

Edited by Harathan, 21 January 2015 - 09:18 AM.

[Alexander Steel]

They wouldn't need to GM something like the FedCom, they'd just have to make it so they couldn't attack each other. That said, while they are in favor of player meta alliances and the like, they have also been very resistant to the idea of giving player the power to force other players to behave.

In other words it's up to the groups of players to figure out how to convince people who don't want to listen to them to fall in line.

Edited by Alexander Steel, 21 January 2015 - 09:21 AM.

[Sprouticus]

Dimento Graven, on 21 January 2015 - 08:27 AM, said:

Agreed there are bigger issues, for now.

However, once planets are actual tangible commodities with benefits for an entire faction, this sort of activity with what are virtually throwaway accounts is going to be extremely disruptive.

Due to the complexity of the issue PGI should start planning and designing mechanisms to address it NOW, rather than waiting until later.

If people are investing enough time in alts to get mechs, get mech bays, etc......then it is NOT a throwaway account. That's an alt. If they are just playing for one night or a week...that is different. But I dont care who you are, if you are gacing people in trial mechs and losing...you deserve the losee.

[Saint Scarlett Johan]

So players are not following the machinations of the leaders they never chose?

It was kinda sorta like the incident when QQ attacked a Kurita world after the Kurita/FRR leaders had a meeting about arranging a cease fire between the two. The Kurita "leaders" came to the FRR forum crying and then one of the FRR leaders came to the QQ teamspeak pitching a fit.

We never knew they made a ceasefire. We never even knew of the leaders. So we sure as hell didn't pick them to represent us. Since we didn't get any say in any of the maneuvering, why should we honor the agreements made? Was the agreement beneficial to FRR as a whole? Yeah, because instead of defending four planets, it changed to three planets to defend letting us focus elsewhere. But they clearly went out of the way to keep us out of the loop.

But then we have CSJ, where there is one planet to defend and one to attack. Kurita doesn't attack, in fact they don't even defend. Imagine the boredom of CSJ players. I can't wait to go back to FRR.

I literally only play CW to shoot robutt after work. I don't give a wooden nickel for the political ****** yanking fantasies of these grown men/women.

[Davers]

Personally, I blame the people on this forum who throw around the phrase "Well how many planets has YOUR unit taken?" as a measure of epeen.

[Dimento Graven]

Lord Scarlett Johan, on 21 January 2015 - 09:50 AM, said:

So players are not following the machinations of the leaders they never chose?

It's not that, it's players from ONE faction very obviously creating throw away accounts and joining them to an enemy faction of their primary accounts to disrupt the efforts of that faction.

Quote

It was kinda sorta like the incident when QQ attacked a Kurita world after the Kurita/FRR leaders had a meeting about arranging a cease fire between the two. The Kurita "leaders" came to the FRR forum crying and then one of the FRR leaders came to the QQ teamspeak pitching a fit.

We never knew they made a ceasefire. We never even knew of the leaders. So we sure as hell didn't pick them to represent us. Since we didn't get any say in any of the maneuvering, why should we honor the agreements made? Was the agreement beneficial to FRR as a whole? Yeah, because instead of defending four planets, it changed to three planets to defend letting us focus elsewhere. But they clearly went out of the way to keep us out of the loop.

The difference is you didn't obscure yourselves by creating alt accounts that no one could get a hold of or communicate with. These 12 people very obviously did just that.

[Mark of Caine]

Dimento, seriously, if there are "spies" in your network intent on disrupting established non-aggression pacts with other factions, then let them. I guarantee that after 30 minutes of playing Turret-Warrior Online, they'll either stop and queue up on planets where there is action, or hit the Public queues.

Then, the attacked faction you have an NA pact with, can just cap the red tiles back down below 50%, or take the planet back the next day.

Eezy Peezy

[Dimento Graven]

Caine2112, on 21 January 2015 - 09:57 AM, said:

Dimento, seriously, if there are "spies" in your network intent on disrupting established non-aggression pacts with other factions, then let them. I guarantee that after 30 minutes of playing Turret-Warrior Online, they'll either stop and queue up on planets where there is action, or hit the Public queues.

Then, the attacked faction you have an NA pact with, can just cap the red tiles back down below 50%, or take the planet back the next day.

Eezy Peezy

Actually they were ignored, until it was too late and Steiner lost a planet due to everyone believing that these people would 'get bored with the turret runs'.

As they turret ran it up to 80% before Steiner decided to send a unit down to fight them, the theory "ignore them 'till they go away" is a... stupid one, at best.

Edited by Dimento Graven, 21 January 2015 - 10:05 AM.

[Revis Volek]

Egomane, on 21 January 2015 - 08:27 AM, said:

Now try it again, without logging into the forum with the alt account before you play a game.
Create the account -> play -> logout -> search
Never enter the forum with the new account.

I have tested this myself in the past and it functions just like I told you.

Egomane is 100% correct...i had this issue when i tried to find a friend i asked to join. Couldn't msg him but i had played with him!

Dimento Graven, on 21 January 2015 - 07:56 AM, said:

So again, you'd be fine if me and 11 other people created brand new alt accounts, created a unit, and started attacking your factions holdings on an inactive front just for the sole purpose of causing your faction to pull units away from your active front so that my primary account's faction can have a numerical advantage and capture more territory from you.

See if you ignore me, we'd capture territory on your inactive front.

If you deal with me, you're pulling units from your active front, and potentially losing worlds on your active front.

I don't have to care either way because the accounts are 'throw away' and there's no personal investment in them one way or another.

Whats the difference if they do it on a alt or they do like QQ and others do and join a faction with your NORMAL account just to create havoc and problems? Should they be banned because they didn't respect an agreement between a few people and their Units? Never allowed to play in this game again because they were in fact playing the game as intended by PGI? QQ joined us and started attacking GB who we have a mutual unit ceasefire with. So should we be banning them? Crying to Russ and Support about how they are ruining on little game we setup?

No, we told em to put an egg in there shoe and beat it. Then we told GB about it and all has been handled. Player Driven politics my friend....PGI wants nothing to do with it and thats fine by me. QQ is more then welcome to do as they wish...no one controls them and you do not control the whole Davion unit.

Its one planet....whats even the big deal? Can't you guys just take it back right now?

[Fragnot]

Dimento Graven, on 20 January 2015 - 09:57 PM, said:

You're saying your fine with that kind of tactic being utilized.

I'm fine with anything I have no power to change.

[Dimento Graven]

DarthRevis, on 21 January 2015 - 10:09 AM, said:

Whats the difference if they do it on a alt or they do like QQ and others do and join a faction with your NORMAL account just to create havoc and problems? Should they be banned because they didn't respect an agreement between a few people and their Units? Never allowed to play in this game again because they were in fact playing the game as intended by PGI? QQ joined us and started attacking GB who we have a mutual unit ceasefire with. So should we be banning them? Crying to Russ and Support about how they are ruining on little game we setup?

No, we told em to put an egg in there shoe and beat it. Then we told GB about it and all has been handled. Player Driven politics my friend....PGI wants nothing to do with it and thats fine by me. QQ is more then welcome to do as they wish...no one controls them and you do not control the whole Davion unit.

Its one planet....whats even the big deal? Can't you guys just take it back right now?

The difference in this particular scenario is, these people, on their alt accounts don't care about winning or losing the planet, their entire purpose is to pull units away from the primary front.

If the faction they are attacking on their alts FINELY decides to stop ignoring these alts, and sends a unit down, the alts don't have to play to win, only play to keep that 12 man playing on the 'wrong front' for as long as possible, keeping that 12 man away from ACTUAL battles that matter.

[Davers]

Dimento Graven, on 21 January 2015 - 10:24 AM, said:

The difference in this particular scenario is, these people, on their alt accounts don't care about winning or losing the planet, their entire purpose is to pull units away from the primary front.

If the faction they are attacking on their alts FINELY decides to stop ignoring these alts, and sends a unit down, the alts don't have to play to win, only play to keep that 12 man playing on the 'wrong front' for as long as possible, keeping that 12 man away from ACTUAL battles that matter.

Well, none of the battles on the Steiner/Davion border matter. You guys could hit each other for weeks before any chance of opening up a new front occurs. You guys are really making much to do about nothing.

[Egomane]

Dimento Graven, on 21 January 2015 - 10:24 AM, said:

The difference in this particular scenario is, these people, on their alt accounts don't care about winning or losing the planet, their entire purpose is to pull units away from the primary front.

If the faction they are attacking on their alts FINELY decides to stop ignoring these alts, and sends a unit down, the alts don't have to play to win, only play to keep that 12 man playing on the 'wrong front' for as long as possible, keeping that 12 man away from ACTUAL battles that matter.

If you really believe that, then ignore them. If they want to create attention or distraction, then don't give them what they want. If they don't achieve anything with it, they will lose interest over time, if it is really their intention to sabotage you.

Really, you are massivly blowing this thing out of proportion.

[Dimento Graven]

Egomane, on 21 January 2015 - 10:30 AM, said:

If you really believe that, then ignore them. If they want to create attention or distraction, then don't give them what they want. If they don't achieve anything with it, they will lose interest over time, if it is really their intention to sabotage you.

Really, you are massivly blowing this thing out of proportion.

Sure it is, until I and 11 of my buddies start doing it to you...

[MischiefSC]

I'm not sure I'm in favor of letting players run factions and create enforceable alliances. I have no issue with players deciding to attack allies of their faction - again, alliances are at best gentlemen agreements between the loyalist members of factions.

My real issue is pretending that doing so is anything but being a petty inconvenience. I get the desire to do that - feel like you're doing something different or special or whatever. Being special and counter-culture or whatever hipster rebel term you want to use. That's great. The reality is though that the big groups and general consensus drive factions and faction tactics overall. If you're dropping in group queue and you're a 2man dropping with a 10man, the 10man gets to call the tactics. Even if you don't agree it's pretty stupid to be a 2man running off and doing your own thing.

Then again the 10man probably wasn't counting on the 2man of renegade pug-esque guys to do anything useful for winning the match anyway.

CW is no different. The big units and player made councils are going to decide the direction of their relative factions. That is what it is. If you work with them you can be part of the success of the faction. You work against the overall faction direction then you're a minor inconvenience and everyone, your faction or others, is going to remember you as a largely useless bunch of twits but whatever. What you're not going to do is significantly derail what the big groups are doing. It's just a matter of wanting to be useful vs wanting to feel like a cool hipster rebel outcast rambo pug, or whatever your motivation is.