198 replies to this topic

[sceii]

kapusta11, on 22 January 2015 - 06:01 AM, said:

Ok here is how it should be:

Hello, my name is 9A and i dominate this game, with 1 or 2 mpl less may be.

[kapusta11]

sceii, on 22 January 2015 - 06:17 AM, said:

Hello, my name is 9A and i dominate this game, with 1 or 2 mpl less may be.

You might because of instant convergence, doesn't change the fact that this is how heat system should've worked. What is 9A? You mean TDR 9S?

Edited by kapusta11, 22 January 2015 - 06:24 AM.

[sceii]

kapusta11, on 22 January 2015 - 06:23 AM, said:

You might because of instant convergence, doesn't change the fact that this is how heat system should've worked. What is 9A? You mean TDR 9S?

I mean FS-9A. 2.4 heat*8=19.2, 13DHS=6.5 heat per second, so you can do alpha each 3 seconds(pretty close to spl cd) and stay heat neutral, wich means you got like sustained 10 dps in a light 150 km/h mech.
It may be not 100% correct math, but pretty close.

Edited by sceii, 22 January 2015 - 06:33 AM.

[Egomane]

Lily from animove, on 22 January 2015 - 06:15 AM, said:

and now please tell us the weaknesses. and bring some facts and not juts: ballistics will be OP, because thats an opinion not a fact based statement.

I'm not here to go into details or to discuss this topic. I just answered the OPs question with my opinion.

[Mechteric]

Egomane, on 22 January 2015 - 06:34 AM, said:

I'm not here to go into details or to discuss this topic. I just answered the OPs question with my opinion.

Discussion about the topic is what this thread is for, if you don't have anything to back it up then we can only assume you have nothing.

Quite simply the heat mechanics currently in the game could be improved. Having consequences for riding high heat would help the game a lot for starters. Replacing ghost heat with something else would also be beneficial because currently there's no indicator in the HUD that ghost heat is being applied or will be applied unless you wait for an indicator to go away. These are just some of the actual discussion points to which you have no counter.

[Egomane]

CapperDeluxe, on 22 January 2015 - 06:47 AM, said:

Discussion about the topic is what this thread is for,

Please read the OP again for the threads intention!

Edited by Egomane, 22 January 2015 - 06:50 AM.

[Widowmaker1981]

CapperDeluxe, on 22 January 2015 - 06:47 AM, said:

Discussion about the topic is what this thread is for, if you don't have anything to back it up then we can only assume you have nothing.

Quite simply the heat mechanics currently in the game could be improved. Having consequences for riding high heat would help the game a lot for starters. Replacing ghost heat with something else would also be beneficial because currently there's no indicator in the HUD that ghost heat is being applied or will be applied unless you wait for an indicator to go away. These are just some of the actual discussion points to which you have no counter.

Just consider that heat is not the limiting factor for all weapons - so making heat more punitive increases the relative value of those cold weapons (Gauss being the poster child example). Its not as simple as 'i want less alpha so lets increase heat'

[Lily from animove]

Egomane, on 22 January 2015 - 06:34 AM, said:

I'm not here to go into details or to discuss this topic. I just answered the OPs question with my opinion.

No you did not just answered, you said it has weakness and we would move one problem for another. But this may not even be true. what if it fixes 80 problems and leaves only 20? then it is still way better as long as those problems are not as massive as we currently have.

you actualyl look very like someone who has a opinion and does not allow any kind of discussion about it, simply because you don't want someoen to change your opinion. But this is not the way how you ever improve something. Because you voied your opinion like it would be facts, while in truth its just an opinion and not facts.

[Joseph Mallan]

Lily from animove, on 22 January 2015 - 08:14 AM, said:

No you did not just answered, you said it has weakness and we would move one problem for another. But this may not even be true. what if it fixes 80 problems and leaves only 20? then it is still way better as long as those problems are not as massive as we currently have.

you actualyl look very like someone who has a opinion and does not allow any kind of discussion about it, simply because you don't want someoen to change your opinion. But this is not the way how you ever improve something. Because you voied your opinion like it would be facts, while in truth its just an opinion and not facts.

I like what you said and how you said it but...

Quote

I'm trying to find out if there's any kind of consensus among MWO players in regards to how to improve gameplay balance. Many players complain about the fact that mechs with very high firepower and pinpoint accuracy dominate the game. According to these players, this has a number of unfortunate side effects, such as too low TTK, lack of diversity in builds and loadouts, and dominance of certain heavy / assault mechs.

The post starts by asking for our opinions so the OP can find a consensus. Egomane is entitled to give just his opinion without further explaination under that qualification. It would be interesting to debate it with him. But he is not required to do so.

Edited by Joseph Mallan, 22 January 2015 - 08:36 AM.

[Diablobo]

There are two simple fixes. Raise cooldowns or raise dissipation, maybe both. Bam!

Problem solved.

[Heffay]

I care more that the gameplay is fun than I worry about heat mechanics. Don't care how they implement the resource management portion of the game, as long as it's fun.

[Joseph Mallan]

Heffay, on 22 January 2015 - 08:37 AM, said:

I care more that the gameplay is fun than I worry about heat mechanics. Don't care how they implement the resource management portion of the game, as long as it's fun.

And fun is not universal. What is fun for me is abundantly clear is not always fun for the next player.

[Kain Demos]

Let's see.....why do I hate ghost heat besides the fact that it feels like a cheap bandaid that has long been overdue for removal?

The fact that you can't alpha strike in so many stock builds (Nova Prime, Warhawk Prime, Dire Wolf Prime) is ******. I see noobs overheat in the trial 'mechs all the time.

Then you get a 'mech like the Warhawk with 20 locked DHS. Well, the "laser vomit" builds that avoid ghost heat by stacking only 2 large lasers with a bunch of smalls and mediums don't work here. You end up running out of space before tonnage and you have less E hardpoints anyway. The Warhawk was designed around boating large energy weapons and you just can't do that here without dancing around ghost heat.

[Hellcat420]

they should fix heatsinks so they work properly, so that all mechs would have a 30 heat capacity, and slow down weapon convergence(it should take a few seconds for all weapons to line up on the same spot). then they could get rid of ghost heat.

[Josef Nader]

The heat scale is fine. The last thing I want to do right now is throw out the system that has spent the last 3 years undergoing careful tuning and balancing and start over with something that's going to have just as many, if not more, problems than the heat scale.

People need to stop complaining. They've been beating this drum since closed beta, and it's never gotten any traction.

Ghost heat does plenty to mitigate high-heat alpha strikes. Anyone who plays shooters understands the significant difference a half second can make. Anyone who complains that you can't use high energy builds needs to learn a little trigger discipline. I use a stock Nova, a "stock" (DHS + Bigger Engine) AWS-8Q, a "stock" HBK-4P, and a "stock" BLR-1G to great success. All it takes is the ability to resist pressing all the buttons as soon as an enemy jumps out at you.

People who complain about the heat scale are tilting at windmills. MWO has a number of issues, sure, but they aren't related to core gameplay mechanics.

Edited by Josef Nader, 22 January 2015 - 09:25 AM.

[Koniks]

Josef Nader, on 22 January 2015 - 09:21 AM, said:

the system that has spent the last 3 years undergoing careful [ed. emphasis mine] tuning and balancing

Assumes facts not in evidence.

The game may be better balanced that at any other point in the last year. But we got here via a pretty roundabout and arbitrary path.

[Josef Nader]

Mizeur, on 22 January 2015 - 09:38 AM, said:

Assumes facts not in evidence.

The game may be better balanced that at any other point in the last year. But we got here via a pretty roundabout and arbitrary path.

Game balance is a sloppy and roundabout thing. Find me one game forum that isn't full of the game's audience spewing hate over every little balance change the company puts out. Even the most overt and ridiculous exploits have zealous defenders. Balancing a game is never a clean thing.

Edited by Josef Nader, 22 January 2015 - 09:47 AM.

[Koniks]

Josef Nader, on 22 January 2015 - 09:46 AM, said:

Game balance is a sloppy and roundabout thing. Find me one game forum that isn't full of the game's audience spewing hate over every little balance change the company puts out. Even the most overt and ridiculous exploits have zealous defenders. Balancing a game is never a clean thing.

Then you're admitting you were wrong to say that this game has been carefully balanced.

So there's really no reason not consider carefully redesigning the system we have in place other than it might take the kind effort we haven't seen before.

[Jaeger Gonzo]

sceii, on 22 January 2015 - 05:56 AM, said:

I play real time mecha shooter. It is not a turn based game.

Maybe you just not realize, but basically everything in "your game" is based on turn based game.
From mechlab rules, to damage, range of weapons, tons and off course mechs.
So maybe you are not playing game that you thought you ware playing.
Most broken things like ECM, heat, PPFLD are here because PGI can`t read good enough BT rule books and transform them truly to FPS casi sim environment. They even admitted about ECM that they just did not understand ECM rules good enough.
Everything more complicated you do in your live, you do with some sort of design plan.
In this case "The design plan" is BT rules. Better you fallow design, better the outcome will be. Just like with everything.

Now, there is no real reason why we can`t have heat system more closer to BT. The only one that come to my mind is that they want it to be dumb downed and simple to NA teenage crowd. But as usual if you don`t follow plan, outcome can be questionable. End we end up with gargantual, not clear, impossible to understand, ghost heat band aid.

Edited by Jaeger Gonzo, 22 January 2015 - 10:22 AM.

[Josef Nader]

Mizeur, on 22 January 2015 - 10:16 AM, said:

Then you're admitting you were wrong to say that this game has been carefully balanced.

So there's really no reason not consider carefully redesigning the system we have in place other than it might take the kind effort we haven't seen before.

I am admitting that balancing any game involves a series of nerfs and buffs that start quite large and gradually decrease to dial in on the exact game feel the developers work to achieve. I am admitting that there is a massive amount of gameplay data to sift through, and I am amditting that gamer communities are reactionary and fickle, which makes the whole process a lot sloppier.

I remember when this game really was imbalanced. I remember when your team's value was measured in the number of gauss rifles you brought to the field, because even other ballistics were too hot to manage. I remember when the very idea of bringing an LRM or a machine gun would get you completely laughed out of the game because these weapons were less than useless.

I also remember the game hitting a happy balance point about 9 months ago, and everything finally falling into place. It was a gradual process to get there, but PGI did it well. Their changes have shown their value through time. Lots of little things added up to a really happy balance, and that's how it's supposed to be done. PGI has made a number of mistakes along the way, for sure, but they've done a phenominal job of coming up with really intelligent, effective changes to bring the game into balance without undoing all of their previous work. Lots of people continue to spew vitriol because the game wasn't balanced their way. That's just too bad. The game is balanced, and outside of a few rough patches (I'm looking at you, release of the Highlander), it's been a steady march towards a happy middle.

I'm finally playing a Battletech game where I can go out in a stock weapons Shadowhawk (LRM 5, AC5, SRM2, 1 MLas) and perform admirably, scoring multiple kills and several hundred damage. I dare you to find me a Mechwarrior title before now where that was viable. Shoot, that was hardly viable in 3025 tabletop. The balance in MWO is actually significantly better than the balance in the tabletop (I'm looking at you, AC2s, SRM2s, small lasers, and machine guns).

I'm a massive Batteltech grognard. I grew up on tabletop. I also grew up being disappointed in the Mechwarrior games. Both MW3 and MW4 were an arms race to assault mechs (I never owned a copy of MW2). MW4 was especially bad about being "assaults or bust". MechWarrior Online is closer to a true battletech experience than any previous MechWarrior title by leaps and bounds, while still being a fun game to play in it's own right. You need to make changes to the core Battletech rules in translating it to a real time game. Accept that. The changes that PGI has made have been both intelligent and effective at maintaining the "feel" of Battletech while presenting us with a game that is fun to play across the board.