95 replies to this topic

[Mystere]

HARDKOR, on 23 January 2015 - 02:12 PM, said:

Unless you guys have evidence of this actually happening, YOU are ruining your own enjoyment by making up a bogeyman to rail against.

You are trolling yourself.

Can I say the name Mud....?

[Tesunie]

Prawfut Bludskin, on 23 January 2015 - 02:58 PM, said:

Boosting can not win you planets for your faction unless 0 other players show up into that que. once one other group of 12 gets thrown into the mix then the boosting team will not be able to sync up to their alt accounts.

Just wanted to add that, yes they could still sync up with their alt accounts. However, the difficulty and success rate drops drastically for every 12 man groups (PUG or Premade) that fight on that planet (attackers and defenders). Essentially, it becomes so difficult, as to not be worth the risk of being found out and punished for the action. (AKA: If it was happening, I'm sure someone would have noticed it, without too much difficulty.)

[HARDKOR]

Quote

Say you're taking a planet, then a group who is known for boosting, comes by, and get's that planet after your unit has put all the work in, then they boost the hell out of the planet, and take it out from under you for no real work. After you had some amazing, hard fought battles for it.

This is stupid on so many levels.

What units are known for boosting? Are they imaginary perhaps?

[Tesunie]

HARDKOR, on 23 January 2015 - 03:07 PM, said:

This is stupid on so many levels.

What units are known for boosting? Are they imaginary perhaps?

And why have they not been reported yet if they are "known" for boosting?

[HlynkaCG]

Flash Frame, on 23 January 2015 - 02:21 PM, said:

The leaderbords are the planets units hold, since a unit's name get's on a planet.
Prove it happens in MWO! LALALA!

Yes, there are 0 leaderbords in MWO, that's great... BUT, MWO DOES track what units own what planets in CW.

Where this hurts my enjoyment of the game? Easy, if I've put the work in, with my unit, to capture a planet, only to have it stolen from us by a boosting squad, that's BS. It's frustrating, and it prevents a hard working unit from getting recognation. Not to mention it also gives those who are boosting an unfair advantage with c-bill xp gains, which are the only thing to worry about in MWO.

Has anyone actually dropped against a team of bots, or players intentionally throwing matches yet?

The problem with this theory is that unless the boosting team are the only players queued up on both sides of a planet, they are going to encounter other players.

Which means that they either have to actually play the game, or intentionally loose (if they are the farm team) as quickly as possible while their other team (that's actually trying to earn the tag does the same) so they can sync up again. In short it would be easier in terms of time and resources to just have 2 12-mans that are both fighting under thier "real" banner than it would be to have 1 try and "farm" the other.

So unless there is widespread use of bots, which thus far we've seen no evidence of, you're freaking out over nothing.

[HARDKOR]

Wouldn't it just be easier to make alt accounts, get wasted, and play for Dave in trial mechs, doing a shot every time you die?

[CMDR Sunset Shimmer]

Jesus ******* christ. I swear, the collective IQ of this forum is 5.

No it hasn't been witnessed.
No it's not a widespread issue.
Yes, it's possibly happening but hasn't really impacted the game in any way we are aware of currently.
No I have not been personally impacted yet by this happening to me in MWO.
Yes, I have had this happen to me in a myriad of games over the past 20 years. So I am sensitive to the issue becoming a problem.
Yes I admit the situation hasn't become a problem yet, and potentially may never be a problem in MWO.

HARDKOR, on 23 January 2015 - 03:07 PM, said:

This is stupid on so many levels.

What units are known for boosting? Are they imaginary perhaps?

Tesunie, on 23 January 2015 - 03:09 PM, said:

And why have they not been reported yet if they are "known" for boosting?

I was speaking within the context of other games I have had this happen in. Jesus christ, it's like you guys can't follow a ******* conversation to save your souls.

I'm utilizing the examples to say "Hey, look, over here, we had terrority taken from us, by well known boosting squads, if this happens in MWO too, this will be an issue."

I'm not saying any particular group currently is known for boosting.
I AM saying that if it potentially becomes a problem, this will be something to think about.
I AM saying that, right now is the time to discuss this before it becomes a problem, to head the potental problem off before it becomes an issue.

I use chromehounds as the base example, because it's what I'm most fimilar with that has a similar system to how MWO handles it's version of community warfare. It is the closest in design philosophy to what MWO is doing with CW, and because of that, is open to many of the same issues that plagued Chromehounds.

There is no fact of contention between us that, YES, BOOSTING HAPPENS IN OTHER GAMES.

Though oddly, you all seem to be dead set that "But muh MWO will be different, it won't be a problem here!"

Yet you've offered no real reasons why it won't potentially be a problem.
"Just drop against them when you see them quing up."

Ok cool, my unit does so, they[the boosting team] leave, and que up on another planet to boost there. [This actively happened in chromehounds too]

Literally your solution has been "que against them." When that won't work. as they can simply switch to an area that's not being focused by active players.

[Prawfutt]

Flash Frame, on 23 January 2015 - 03:23 PM, said:

Yet you've offered no real reasons why it won't potentially be a problem.
"Just drop against them when you see them quing up."

Ok cool, my unit does so, they[the boosting team] leave, and que up on another planet to boost there. [This actively happened in chromehounds too]

Literally your solution has been "que against them." When that won't work. as they can simply switch to an area that's not being focused by active players.

Im sorry your soaring IQ of 10 is so hard for us fivers to comprehend.
Even more so when you explain OUR point in your very post.

STEP 1 :They boost,
you que up - you defeat their boost.

STEP 2: you match with them, they leave.
you report - you defeat their boost.

STEP 3: they move to an uncontested zone - you defeated their boost because they are no longer dropping on the planet to win it.

STEP 4: REPEAT


but what do i know im just a fiver

[HARDKOR]

Amazing.

Simply amazing.

Cool story, bronie.

You are freaking out about something that is no yet happening, that is easily found via a DB query, and that you have seen no evidence of currently.

Your rage is like a cool wind on a hot day.

Or, something to entertain us till we get home to fire up our clone armies.

Edited by HARDKOR, 23 January 2015 - 03:37 PM.

[CMDR Sunset Shimmer]

ok, you guys win.

There is no problem, there will never be a problem. MWO will always be fine. Go team!

[Insects]

A team of 12 each with a laptop and desktop (its 2015, isn't tha everyone?) Could easily run an A team and a B team. Drop on same quiet planet and have A team wipe out stationary B team.

Its an important topic to be brought up during this beta stage because as OP says, its a problem in every game.

The way games combat this is by:
Matchmaking, prevent high ranks from facing low ranks or have adequate randomization in match selection. Which stops primary accounts being able to fight their smurfs.
Weighted scoring. High rank killing a low rank grants little reward, so unrewarding to kill smurf.
Draconian rules about having multiple accounts and active enforcement and detection.

As it currently stands the CW game looks exposed to this sort of abuse. Take steps to stop it now before a team starts doing it and it becomes a major drama.

[pwnface]

So many personal attacks in this thread...

Yes, this is a potential way for people to exploit the mechanics of CW. PGI should be aware of this issue and figure out how to prevent it.

While we are in BETA of CW, PGI should be fixing holes in mechanics rather than wait for people to exploit them and rage on the forums about it before trying to fix it.

Forget farming C-bills for a minute. If a team of 12 with smurf accounts were sync dropping against themselves during a dead time for CW they wouldn't need to wait the normal 10 minutes for a ghost drop. Assuming you can finish a ghost drop in 3 minutes or so and 1 minute waiting time in lobby, a team using this type of exploit could potentially put attack tokens on a planet at at rate of 1 per 4-5minutes. 8 Attack tokens per successful planetary capture means a team exploiting could fully capture a planet from 0% to 56% in 30-40minutes.

I'm sure it isn't difficult to find 12 people who both have a desktop and laptop capable of running MWO, let alone virtual machines to run multiple instances on a single computer. The potential for people to exploit this system is there (also not that difficult to do), whether people are currently exploiting it is irrelevant.

edit:
I'm also really interested in if PGI is monitoring IPs and multiple accounts because I really doubt they are. Unless someone specifically reports a team for doing this, I highly doubt PGIs limited staff would notice this even happening.

Edited by pwnface, 23 January 2015 - 03:47 PM.

[Prawfutt]

Ok Flash Frame you are correct. I do not want it to happen in MWO. but WE BOTH are posting in a thread opened (several times I might add) by someone saying it is happening right now and its destroying CW. and that is why there are people asking for proof.

The majority of us have told you how we would handle the situation in game if the problem were to happen.

you have told us you do not think it is happening right now.

OK What are your suggestions for preventing it from happening in the future? because i think all of us aside from the OP agree that it is not an issue right now.

Edited by Prawfut Bludskin, 23 January 2015 - 03:49 PM.

[Aresye]

Flash Frame, on 23 January 2015 - 02:43 PM, said:

Say you're taking a planet, then a group who is known for boosting, comes by, and get's that planet after your unit has put all the work in, then they boost the hell out of the planet, and take it out from under you for no real work. After you had some amazing, hard fought battles for it.

So, just to be clear here, you're saying that when you put in all the work (let's say 10/15 wins) on a planet, a single 12man logs in from a total of 24 separate computers, syncs up their drops, and manages to steal the planet from under you? That they managed to do this over 10 times without anybody else interfering on attack or defense, that any times their sync drop did not work they quickly transferred over to their other computer, which is exactly as good as their primary one, and play competently enough to make it seem like they aren't doing this, and still manage to outperform the other potential 11-14 games happening concurrently on the planet, all for a tag on the planet that means nothing, and a risk of losing tons of money invested from 2 separate accounts if they are caught, and never able to play the game again.

Do you realize how stupidly high risk, low reward this is? Hackers and cheaters don't typically go for things that are high risk, low reward.

[Mystere]

Flash Frame, on 23 January 2015 - 02:12 PM, said:

So whatever, Joseph, Ax2Grind, DarthRevis, the rest of you who are so rallied against the fact that this can't happen and isn't happening. Be secure in your denial, because when it does happen. AND IT WILL BECAUSE IT HAPPENS IN EVERY GAME LIKE THIS. I'll simply sit back and laugh, because there were those of us who tried to wake you up to the fact it could happen. And you simply rallied against the idea.

The NSA has tapped the fiber of all major ISPs. Yet I do not see anyone railing about it.

[pwnface]

Aresye, on 23 January 2015 - 03:47 PM, said:

Do you realize how stupidly high risk, low reward this is? Hackers and cheaters don't typically go for things that are high risk, low reward.

This is a pretty arbitrary statement. How rewarding capturing a planet is varies from individual to individual as well as how much risk there is over potentially losing an account. Some players are F2P or spend very little money or make a lot of money and don't really care about losing their account when they can make a new one.

What I'd like to know is if PGI is even actively monitoring IPs for matches, because if they aren't the risk actually seems to be fairly low.

Edited by pwnface, 23 January 2015 - 03:57 PM.

[HlynkaCG]

pwnface, on 23 January 2015 - 03:44 PM, said:

Forget farming C-bills for a minute. If a team of 12 with smurf accounts were sync dropping against themselves during a dead time for CW they wouldn't need to wait the normal 10 minutes for a ghost drop. Assuming you can finish a ghost drop in 3 minutes or so and 1 minute waiting time in lobby, a team using this type of exploit could potentially put attack tokens on a planet at at rate of 1 per 4-5minutes. 8 Attack tokens per successful planetary capture means a team exploiting could fully capture a planet from 0% to 56% in 30-40minutes.

joelmuzz, on 23 January 2015 - 03:43 PM, said:

A team of 12 each with a laptop and desktop (its 2015, isn't tha everyone?) Could easily run an A team and a B team. Drop on same quiet planet and have A team wipe out stationary B team.

Yes but as myself and others have already noted, this only works if the A and B teams are the only one's dropping on a given planet. As soon as another team (or 12 Pugs) show up the whole scheme falls apart.

Likewise this sort of thing would be trivially easy to detect, so if you see it happening report it to the mods. Why is everyone freaking out?

ETA:
Linkage

Edited by HlynkaCG, 23 January 2015 - 04:05 PM.

[HARDKOR]

In all SRSNS, it would take less than five minutes to write a DB query to investigate any team that was reported for doing this.

You can sleep easy, my sweet pony, the smart kids got this under control.

I was only continuing the derp because I am at work and IT is easy money, and this thread was like a pugstomp.

[Insects]

A busy planet isn't vulnerable, the pairing of the two teams is unreliable.
Its the zero queue planets which will guarantee two 12 mans will be paired with each other.
The goal would be boosting wins, not claiming map dots.

In the case of doing it for map dots. (If anyone cares about map dots, some seem very into them)
Remember, two valueless smurf accounts can be used, a primary account doesn't need to expose itself to detection and bans. IP monitoring never happens, doesn't work because of proxies.

CW matchmaking needs to be designed so that the odds of two chosen teams fighting is low. The current planet queue system is vulnerable. It is beta, identify and change.

[pwnface]

HlynkaCG, on 23 January 2015 - 03:57 PM, said:

Yes but as myself and others have already noted, this only works if the A and B teams are the only one's dropping on a given planet. As soon as another team (or 12 Pugs) show up the whole scheme falls apart.

Likewise this sort of thing would be trivially easy to detect, so if you see it happening report it to the mods. Why is everyone freaking out?

ETA:
Linkage

Hypothetically, assuming the players can actually win matches they can play their real accounts and win a match while still throwing a match using their smurf accounts. Throwing a match against bad opponents works just as well as winning a match against no opponents.

HARDKOR, on 23 January 2015 - 04:07 PM, said:

In all SRSNS, it would take less than five minutes to write a DB query to investigate any team that was reported for doing this.

You can sleep easy, my sweet pony, the smart kids got this under control.

I was only continuing the derp because I am at work and IT is easy money, and this thread was like a pugstomp.

I agree this would be incredibly easy for PGI to spot, but they would have to be looking at least. I find it perfectly reasonable to expect PGI to not be aware of this potential exploit and therefore not be looking for anyone doing this.

Let's be real for a minute, PGI isn't exactly overflowing with talent or manpower when it comes to programming.

joelmuzz, on 23 January 2015 - 04:11 PM, said:

Remember, two valueless smurf accounts can be used, a primary account doesn't need to expose itself to detection and bans. IP monitoring never happens, doesn't work because of proxies.

I was going to mention proxies but I guess you beat me to it.