182 replies to this topic

[MauttyKoray]

Kristov Kerensky, on 24 January 2015 - 10:44 PM, said:

Well, since some of the novels and some of the old original TRO artwork actually had the driver of certain Mech's standing up with their legs/lower body in the torso or the cockpit being partially/totally inside the torso(Marauder, Cataphract)...what's the problem? It's not like the heads on Mechs swivel or move after all, and quite a few don't actually HAVE a head, it's just a naming convention for the cockpit area in quite a few cases.

The Atlas was the tallest Mech in BTech at 15m at one time, back when FASA still existed and before the Jihad/Dark Ages. The rebranding as CBT has seen a total rework of sizes. The size chart posted in this thread is composed from the original 3050 TRO specs/images and as you can see, not a single Clan Mech on that chart hits 15m to equal or exceed the height of the Atlas. According to CBT however, the Atlas is only 13m tall now and is not close to being the tallest Mech on the field anymore, even being topped by IS Mechs that were originally shorter than the Atlas, such as the Victor(14m according to CBT). CBT also lists the Spider as being 11m tall, the same as a Catapult, Summoner, and Kit Fox. Pretty sure my Spider in MWO isn't anywhere near as tall as the Catapult and Summoner and I know my Kit Fox isn't that tall either.

Weight of the Mech and actual size of the Mech have NEVER been even remotely realistic or even fitting to the rest of the BTech universe's plethora of vehicles and machines of war. 100 ton tanks don't take up anywhere near the volume of a 100 ton Mech, despite being composed of the exact same materials, hells they don't even take up the volume as a 20 ton Mech. Welcome to BTech, reality is left at the door so that the game is fun despite the entire premise of bipedal walking giant tanks is incredibly stupid from a purely military standpoint

Personally, I like the redesign by Bishop, but I must say I think #4 on the original 4 selection option is my favorite, it looks more like the original Urbie to me, short and squat and not exactly something that inspires fear and trepidation but rather something you look at, giggle, and stomp on it's foot to see if the top pops up.

Actually it makes a lot of sense. Consider that a Tank is a solid mass of the material, meanwhile a mech is spread out, has hollow areas, myomer muscles, and is spread along a human/animal like frame. A ball of clay can be molded into many things without changing its mass.

[EGG]

from MPBT3025

fly little urbie


urbie standoff


urbie examining a tree

[Sereglach]

Completely behind the concept in the OP. Given the stats the Urbanmech is likely to have, it should be one of the shortest mechs available. It's meant to be a tiny urban fighter.

[Hukkama]

FupDup, on 24 January 2015 - 10:00 PM, said:

A 180 engine puts it at 106.9 kph after speed tweak. Remember that this is a 30 ton mech we're talking about, with 30 tonner armor and 30 tonner firepower, and a somewhat average array of just 6 hardpoints. Compare this to 35 ton Firestarters going 150 kph with 8 hardpoints (most of them) and 35 ton Jenners also going 150 (with half of them having 6 hardpoints). And then compare it to the 55 ton Stormcrow that also goes 106.9 kph, with triple the firepower and armor.

Doesn't seem so fast when it's put into perspective...

is that slower or faster than a kit fox and adder?

[IraqiWalker]

Hukkama, on 25 January 2015 - 04:44 PM, said:

is that slower or faster than a kit fox and adder?

Identical to KFX. It's the same engine. (180)

Edited by IraqiWalker, 25 January 2015 - 04:51 PM.

[Jonny Slam]

ForceUser, on 24 January 2015 - 06:51 PM, said:

What would be the point of the mech if it was not at least able to be modified to work within the framework that is MWO? Mechlab candy alone? A tool Trolls use to, shrugging their shoulders and saying they can't help the mech is so slow, blame PGI, etc.?

I would be all in favor of having the collectors Urby be a more nostalgic design with the standard models fitting in more with how MWO has redesigned all the other mechs as well. That would imho be the best of both worlds. Yes I understand a lot of people will see this as PGI extorting people's nostalgia, but I think it is fair having people pay a premium for a mech that is out of the ordinary looks wise. This is normal capitalism at work.

One thing I want to be clear on is that I don't feel that PGI is taking advantage or extorting peopl's nostalgia in any way at all.

Truthfully I think PGI's response and fielding of a Urbanmech (no matter what form) is a sign of the nimbleness that the company has shown since taking the game back fully. Responding to this kind of emerging zeitgeist the way they have says a lot of good things about the company and it's staff these days.

While I may not be thrilled with the designs so far I am tickled that Russ and Co have taken the steps to give players something they want, even if it is under-powered slow, silly mech like the Urbie players want, they are willing to go along.

Sometimes, especially after the quirk-drop I would worry about the constant whining for nerf this and nerf that, and worry that PGI will go along with people who just make too much noise. This though is the opposite side of that coin, and I think it is great to see.
For the past 5 months I personally have been really impressed with how PGI has maintained a balance between giving us what we ask for and not giving in to a noisy minority.

Nice job PGI

Edited by Jonny Slam, 25 January 2015 - 06:34 PM.

[Bloodweaver]

ForceUser, on 24 January 2015 - 06:51 PM, said:

What would be the point of the mech if it was not at least able to be modified to work within the framework that is MWO? Mechlab candy alone? A tool Trolls use to, shrugging their shoulders and saying they can't help the mech is so slow, blame PGI, etc.?

The point? How about that the only reason the 'mech is even getting CONSIDERED by PGI is that there has been enough of a demand by people who want it purely for uts nostalgia/humorous/challenge/uniqueness to make them realize there's a profit to be made by sating that demand. Modifying the 'mech to make it better fit within the game's overall framework, defeats the purpose of putting it in at all. Nobody was calling for Urbanmechs because the game needed more of these.

[Bishop Steiner]

Bloodweaver, on 25 January 2015 - 06:50 PM, said:

The point? How about that the only reason the 'mech is even getting CONSIDERED by PGI is that there has been enough of a demand by people who want it purely for uts nostalgia/humorous/challenge/uniqueness to make them realize there's a profit to be made by sating that demand. Modifying the 'mech to make it better fit within the game's overall framework, defeats the purpose of putting it in at all. Nobody was calling for Urbanmechs because the game needed more of these.

Except that a huge number of the people who have paid for it are paying for it because Russ said he will try to make it viable.

The days of it selling purely as a joke/mascot, passed long ago, when mos tof the first wave of founders left.

[Bloodweaver]

Kristov Kerensky, on 24 January 2015 - 10:44 PM, said:

It's not like the heads on Mechs swivel or move after all...

Actually...

Edited by Bloodweaver, 25 January 2015 - 07:03 PM.

[Jonny Slam]

I think a possible way to make it viable yet maintain the flavor is armor, seriously badass armor and internal hit points. The mech in it's initial manifestation had very serious armor for tonnage.

[Bloodweaver]

Bishop Steiner, on 25 January 2015 - 06:56 PM, said:

Except that a huge number of the people who have paid for it are paying for it because Russ said he will try to make it viable.

The days of it selling purely as a joke/mascot, passed long ago, when mos tof the first wave of founders left.

A huge number? I doubt that, highly. Unless there's some actual statistics available, the forum behavior here is the only reference to what the Urbanmech's customer base is. And there's no indication there of the joke/mascot element having passed long ago.

[Bishop Steiner]

Bloodweaver, on 25 January 2015 - 07:03 PM, said:

A huge number? I doubt that, highly. Unless there's some actual statistics available, the forum behavior here is the only reference to what the Urbanmech's customer base is. And there's no indication there of the joke/mascot element having passed long ago.

I believe you will find, unlike some chassis, the majority of buyers for the Urbie are forumites. And out of the hundreds of individual posts and buyers the "must keep Urbie useless" sentiment has been very non prevalent, and a good number of them are the ones who have said they wouldn't buy it regardless.

[Bloodweaver]

See, I don't see a disconnect between "amusing" and "useful." MWO is a game where even most so-called "joke builds" can bring something to the table. AC40 Cicadas are useful. LRM100 Stalkers are useful. 9xSPL Hunchbacks are useful. They are not top-of-the-line, but they are perfectly capable of operating within a niche, and in especially capable hands can do some really surprising things. And the same goes for a slow, moderately-jumping light armed with only an AC-10 and a SL. We've seen evidence of this by players (most notably FantasticTuesday) simulating the build with Spiders. The Urbie is, and should be, nothing more than that Spider build with the appropriate cosmetics and hitboxes. PGI's banking on that.

They did not decide to implement the Urbie because "we can make it viable," that much is clear from Russ' own statements. They decided to implement the Urbie because they knew they could make money from it, even with it not being viable. If they go down the path of "well, we can still make that nostalgia money, but also make even more money by also making it more viable if wanted," it's a bit of a slap in the face to the people who convinced them to put it into the game in the first place.

The design and implementation of the Urbanmech in no way mirrors that of other 'mechs, not even the Phoenix Pack 'mechs, many of which were also longed-for fan-favorites. Whether or not they later on decided to attract more buyers to the Urbie by saying they could kit it out into non-Urbness, the original motivation was all the nostalgic posts in the fora. Not posts saying it should make it into the game but be better, but posts saying it should make it into the game because it's NOT better.

[luxebo]

The concept art for MWO's urbie looks like a Firestarter with enlarged guns. I see what you did there PGI...

[IraqiWalker]

Bloodweaver, on 25 January 2015 - 08:08 PM, said:

See, I don't see a disconnect between "amusing" and "useful." MWO is a game where even most so-called "joke builds" can bring something to the table. AC40 Cicadas are useful. LRM100 Stalkers are useful. 9xSPL Hunchbacks are useful. They are not top-of-the-line, but they are perfectly capable of operating within a niche, and in especially capable hands can do some really surprising things. And the same goes for a slow, moderately-jumping light armed with only an AC-10 and a SL. We've seen evidence of this by players (most notably FantasticTuesday) simulating the build with Spiders. The Urbie is, and should be, nothing more than that Spider build with the appropriate cosmetics and hitboxes. PGI's banking on that.

They did not decide to implement the Urbie because "we can make it viable," that much is clear from Russ' own statements. They decided to implement the Urbie because they knew they could make money from it, even with it not being viable. If they go down the path of "well, we can still make that nostalgia money, but also make even more money by also making it more viable if wanted," it's a bit of a slap in the face to the people who convinced them to put it into the game in the first place.

The design and implementation of the Urbanmech in no way mirrors that of other 'mechs, not even the Phoenix Pack 'mechs, many of which were also longed-for fan-favorites. Whether or not they later on decided to attract more buyers to the Urbie by saying they could kit it out into non-Urbness, the original motivation was all the nostalgic posts in the fora. Not posts saying it should make it into the game but be better, but posts saying it should make it into the game because it's NOT better.

While I understand a lot of what you're saying. I'm one of those people who have campaigned for the urbie, and I personally couldn't care less about it's engine size. However, I only speak for myself. The way I see it, is that if people want to run a slow urbie, they have the option of doing that (PGI even coded the STD 60 for it. They could even upgrade the engine to something a bit bigger, like a STD 100). While those that want to run a fast 30 tonner that is wearing the skin of an urbie, should be able to do that.

In my personal opinion, the engine cap being a minimum of 180 (matching clan lights in speed), is a good place to be in. It gives us a new light that is capable of great dakka, and tankiness, but it's somewhat slow (with a 180, it's going 106.9 Kph, that is practically light speed compared to the STD 60). They could even get the engine cap up high. All the way to a 255, so the urbie can go 150 Kph. I will probably run mine somewhere in the 180-210 range. I know someone out there will want to run it with the 60. Probably the XL version. There are also those that will run it with the 255.

Again, speaking only for myself. There is room for all of us. Now, if the mech ends up being tiny, with crazy good hitboxes, then giving it a lower engine cap (180-210) will also be justified.


There's arguments for both sides. I just think that if someone knows the urbanmech's reputation wants it to be meta, they are approaching it with the wrong mindset for that mech. I won't tell them they are wrong to tweak it to the max. It just doesn't feel very "urbie" to me, but I'd want them to have that choice.

(Right now I'm thinking one variant will keep a 60 rated engine. Another will have a decent mid point engine for huge dakka, and the third will have max engine for shenanigans.)

Again. This is just my own personal opinion, as someone who has campaigned for the Urbie for almost an entire year.

[Kristov Kerensky]

Bloodweaver, on 25 January 2015 - 07:03 PM, said:

Actually...

You have 4 images that show Mechs who's heads are twisted(out of how many hundreds of Mechs now?), the 4th shows an Atlas twisting it's head, which it can't actually do, even the original TRO artwork shows the Atlas head solidly connected to the torso without any 'neck' to pivot upon. And those are simply artistic works, there's literally no reason the head of any Mech would twist since you don't actually look out of the cockpit windows when the Mech is powered up. Keep in mind, something we do not get in MWO(nor any previous MW video game) is the 360 view compressed into 160 that is what all Mech pilots actually use to see the world around them. I don't blame them for not doing it, most of the MWO players wouldn't be able to play if they did.

Most Mechs are humanoid in appearance, but that's ALL it is, appearance. They are not human bodies nor do they act like them. Necks are a weak point, and a really bad place to purposely build a weakness since ALL of the controls for the entire Mech will be running through that weak point. Artist drew the Mechs with heads turned because it LOOKS good, not because that's what actually would happen. Like this picture of the Atlas, tearing apart that Clan Mech. Not happening in the PnP game, and you'd probably only read about something like that in a Stackpole novel, hence the term 'Stackpoling', as Mr Stackpole is infamous for his use of such plot devices (he often put main characters in certain death situations despite knowing they were to live many years beyond the scene, something he actually does in most of his writing to be honest, and he would have to create something totally against the universe's rules he is writing in, like the time he saved a certain Merc leader who is actually a Clan Trueborn and gave him a supernatural air that was never followed up on because..WRONG UNIVERSE!).

[Dawnstealer]

Bishop Steiner, on 23 January 2015 - 07:00 PM, said:

I feel bad for saying that. It looks cool, make no mistake. I just....

I think it looks too slim. Too tall. Too..... tactical.

While I don't think Urbie needs be treated as a joke, I do think he needs his potbelly proportions.

For example, the official Ortho.


Looks killer. Just..... not quite "Urbie".

So..... I downscaled the whole mech 15%, then the legs and extra 10% on top of that to this:


or for side by side comparo:


Much more R2D2, yes?

Urbie, IMO, and by lore, should be about Commando height, or a skosh shorter, but with that beer keg torso like a hunchback. Since the model hasn't even been started, maybe if enough people agree, we can get the proportions changed (even slightly).

What say you guys?

Yeah: bring on Sir Squishy.

[Pezzer]

As long as the in-game Urbie is short enough, then the original design is fine. The problem with making the Urbie shorter in dimensions, making the head wider to look like the original concept art etc. is that those shapes are easier for the eye to identify the center of and as a result easier for a player to partition sections of that Urbanmech into ST/CT and then fire at which part of the mech he wants to hit.

It's the way the human eye works. The boxier the shape, the easier it is to subconsciously slice it into 3-5 parts quickly before shooting at it.
The original concept art is probably going to be best for survivability. I think that the legs are a bit long as well, but those long legs match the original Urbanmech art better than short stubbly legs.

Also, why do so many people want the original horrible dimensions of the old Urbanmech? All of those early art designs looks pretty terribad. The original Urbanmech would not have been able to jog due to balance constraints, let alone run. The new urbanmech looks much more feasible given real life physics, but even then it could still be improved (made much less egg-shaped).

So in summary, think about what you're doing to the Urbanmech before you ask the devs to make it closer to the original art. Imagine that you are in your favorite mech, and you're aiming at an Urbanmech. Let's pretend that it's just about to shoot at another target and will probably move a split-second later so you have only about 1.5 seconds to stop your mech, line your shot up, and move. Then think about which of all the changes/shapes people have suggested are going to make it easier/harder to hit that Urbanmech.
After thinking about it you will see that making the urbanmech a trash can makes it easier to hit. That is bad for a slow mech with almost no armor. Giving it a larger head makes it easier to hit the CT and head components, since the center of the center glass pane is always a headshot (and a larger head=more CT). Making it stubbier brings that Urbanmech closer to a box shape, which makes it easier to set up your shot, even if that shot is going to be harder to hit with. Making the legs shorter takes the Urbanmech farther away from the original art while also making movement animations harder to make realistic, etc.

The original art is probably going to be our best bet, but if the animators can pull it off I think the Urbanmech would benefit from shorter legs and a slightly stubbier (5%) Urbanmech torso.

[IraqiWalker]

Kristov Kerensky, on 26 January 2015 - 10:55 AM, said:

You have 4 images that show Mechs who's heads are twisted(out of how many hundreds of Mechs now?), the 4th shows an Atlas twisting it's head, which it can't actually do, even the original TRO artwork shows the Atlas head solidly connected to the torso without any 'neck' to pivot upon. And those are simply artistic works, there's literally no reason the head of any Mech would twist since you don't actually look out of the cockpit windows when the Mech is powered up. Keep in mind, something we do not get in MWO(nor any previous MW video game) is the 360 view compressed into 160 that is what all Mech pilots actually use to see the world around them. I don't blame them for not doing it, most of the MWO players wouldn't be able to play if they did.

Most Mechs are humanoid in appearance, but that's ALL it is, appearance. They are not human bodies nor do they act like them. Necks are a weak point, and a really bad place to purposely build a weakness since ALL of the controls for the entire Mech will be running through that weak point. Artist drew the Mechs with heads turned because it LOOKS good, not because that's what actually would happen. Like this picture of the Atlas, tearing apart that Clan Mech. Not happening in the PnP game, and you'd probably only read about something like that in a Stackpole novel, hence the term 'Stackpoling', as Mr Stackpole is infamous for his use of such plot devices (he often put main characters in certain death situations despite knowing they were to live many years beyond the scene, something he actually does in most of his writing to be honest, and he would have to create something totally against the universe's rules he is writing in, like the time he saved a certain Merc leader who is actually a Clan Trueborn and gave him a supernatural air that was never followed up on because..WRONG UNIVERSE!).

ACTUALLY:
If you're playing clan vs. IS, one of your biggest advantages in TT was melee. Clan mechs couldn't do it most of the time. Literally getting pummeled is usually what happens to a clan star that gets into melee range with IS mechs. All IS mechs can punch, and kick. Most clan mechs can't punch at all.

You haven't seen IS vs. Clan fighting in TT until you've seena shadowhawk jumpjet from the rooftop of a building, to deliver a kick to a direwolf and knock it down. Or a Dragon literally gutting out a Summoner from behind with that nasty claw.

Melee is too real in TT. If I'm playing IS and I want to win hard, and fast, I will use all the cover in the world to hide my forces until we can punch them in the face. Of course, if I miss with a kick, there's a very good chance I will fall. It's acceptable if it means I can drop enemy mechs, and beat them to death with great accuracy.

Edited by IraqiWalker, 26 January 2015 - 04:37 PM.

[Kristov Kerensky]

IraqiWalker, on 26 January 2015 - 04:36 PM, said:

ACTUALLY:
If you're playing clan vs. IS, one of your biggest advantages in TT was melee. Clan mechs couldn't do it most of the time. Literally getting pummeled is usually what happens to a clan star that gets into melee range with IS mechs. All IS mechs can punch, and kick. Most clan mechs can't punch at all.

You haven't seen IS vs. Clan fighting in TT until you've seena shadowhawk jumpjet from the rooftop of a building, to deliver a kick to a direwolf and knock it down. Or a Dragon literally gutting out a Summoner from behind with that nasty claw.

Melee is too real in TT. If I'm playing IS and I want to win hard, and fast, I will use all the cover in the world to hide my forces until we can punch them in the face. Of course, if I miss with a kick, there's a very good chance I will fall. It's acceptable if it means I can drop enemy mechs, and beat them to death with great accuracy.

Oh, I'm not saying that melee isn't possible, just that what you see in that picture isn't what happens in TT melee. One of my favorite Mechs in TT was the Berserker, and I've actually grabbed the arm blown off another Mech with my Atlas in TT and beat on enemy Mechs with it. Hell, even grabbed the leg of a Locust once and used it as ammo when my gauss ran out of ammo, ruined the weapon but it WAS funny as hell to see the leg of a Locust sticking out of the cockpit of the Timberwolf I fired at(got REAL lucky and got a triple crit in the head) Grabbing weapon barrels and bending them while also punching your way through the side torso..not happening in TT, not even Stackpole tried to pull that one.

Yes, most Clan Mechs don't punch or kick, but that's more due to how the Clans fight than anything else. You CAN punch without hand/lower arm actuators, but you take a penalty to the attack and the damage and will probably break the weapons on the arm, but it's done none the less. Buddy of mine smacked a Jenner with his Warhammer's PPC when it got close, knocked that Jenner flat and then he tried to stomp on it. Things got funny at that point as he missed and fell down instead. Jenner got up and kicked the Warhammer in the cockpit. Didn't do enough to take out the head but did leave the pilot out cold, at which point the Jenner took an aimed shot and blew a nice hole where the cockpit was.

There was once a blurb in one of the TROs about an Atlas with TSM literally kicking through the entire center torso of a Jenner from bottom to top, cutting the Jenner in half. Not actually possible to do in TT but that never stopped us from trying it! I won't mention how many Atlases ended up falling over in the attempt and how many Jenners got fallen upon, which btw, is a damned effective way of taking one out(but VERY expensive in damage to the Atlas!).

Artists for the BTech universe rarely paid any attention to what the game rules said was possible, and often artwork was bought that wasn't actually a good representation of the Mech it was supposed to be, but hey, it looked good! The old original edition TROs sometimes had images that didn't match any known configs of the Mechs they represented, it was just something we acknowledged and either ignored or came up with a variant to match the image. Could be a customized job or it could be a variant that is special order only, whatever, we'd just find a way to ignore the obvious discrepencies, we loved the game too much to worry about such piddling little details.