125 replies to this topic

[stealthraccoon]

I think ballistic cool down bonuses, range increases and heat reduction (with focus on the chassis specific weapon) as well as cool down, heat reduction and range for small lasers (or small pulse lasers for say R63). Since limited ammo is part of being a small mech with a big gun, I think it's appropriate to have a brace of small lasers to pew pew for most of the battle. Think of a 50% range and cooldown with a pair or trio to dissuade enemies for when the magazines run dry.

[MilesTeg1982]

Bishop Steiner, on 24 January 2015 - 11:49 AM, said:

How was it badly designed?

It does what it was meant to, in the era it was designed, extremely well.

For it's intended role, low cost urban defense, speed was not a necessity. Heavy armor and firepower is. As well as relatively easy sustainability.

well in that case - if its really so good - why do you need any quirks on it - stick to its role and be happy

[Koniving]

I say let the mech "Exist" and be used first before throwing quirks at it otherwise we're gonna get a "Power Creep" scenario.

[Koniving]

MilesTeg1982, on 24 January 2015 - 01:35 PM, said:

well in that case - if its really so good - why do you need any quirks on it - stick to its role and be happy

Few issues with that.
It's designed very well in its source material. PGI has changed how things work to such a drastic degree (never in any Mechwarrior game in history could you fire as much damage, as frequently, or have as much armor as you can in MWO... Nor did you have the kind of engine freedom to be so incredibly fast, or carry so many b.s. guns, etc. as you can in MWO).

Furthermore, it's designed for Urban Combat, in an environment where it can duck, Hulldown inside of buildings or in trenches, etc.
Where in this game has any of that been provided besides a couple of maps?

Beyond that, from what I can see and have done the Urban mech could instantly flip its arms to attack something behind it and has so many viewports for situational awareness because -- and this is comical -- it has NO torso twist. It wouldn't need it given that it would spend most of its time standing on streets or setting up ambushes.

But mediums are NOT 64.8 kph
Assaults are not 48.6 kph.
And lights are not 129 kph at the Extreme Speeds.
A single AC/20 in its source material would do the damage of two AC/20s in MWO. This is because of double armor. Add to this that EVERYTHING has maximum armor, when most things did not. The Urbanmech has as much armor in the stock form than most light mechs have, outclassing all but one Jenner, the Ravens 3L and 2X, the Jagermech, and several of the Shadowhawks. Things that it cannot do in this game.

Those are the reasons for quirks.

(Far as the no twist...)




Ain't no twisting here.

My point is we can't use most of the mech's design in this game because of the way this game was made.

Edited by Koniving, 24 January 2015 - 02:09 PM.

[Utilyan]

Reverse speed 100% Meaning it goes just as fast backwards as forwards.

Acceleration speed (not top/max speed) 0 to 32 in a very fast time. "Side Tart"

JumpJet boost he should be able to get on top of buildings.

Unless he can get ammo back, I wouldn't give him any weapon quirks. Throw the rest on armor.

Some OP QUIRKS: He can get ammo back from dead mechs using a "salvage" module.

50% defense when 200 meters from a building.

Here's a controversial one or least should be........ He can "DASH" with Jumpjets.

[Utilyan]

MilesTeg1982, on 24 January 2015 - 01:35 PM, said:

well in that case - if its really so good - why do you need any quirks on it - stick to its role and be happy

A harsh truth is if this was like "LORE" it would be more like COD/Battlefield urb would be strafing, ducking in cover and doing DFA's on anyone remotely close to him.

[MilesTeg1982]

Koniving, on 24 January 2015 - 01:52 PM, said:

Few issues with that.
It's designed very well in its source material. PGI has changed how things work to such a drastic degree (never in any Mechwarrior game in history could you fire as much damage, as frequently, or have as much armor as you can in MWO... Nor did you have the kind of engine freedom to be so incredibly fast, or carry so many b.s. guns, etc. as you can in MWO).

Furthermore, it's designed for Urban Combat, in an environment where it can duck, Hulldown inside of buildings or in trenches, etc.
Where in this game has any of that been provided besides a couple of maps?

Beyond that, from what I can see and have done the Urban mech could instantly flip its arms to attack something behind it and has so many viewports for situational awareness because -- and this is comical -- it has NO torso twist. It wouldn't need it given that it would spend most of its time standing on streets or setting up ambushes.

But mediums are NOT 64.8 kph
Assaults are not 48.6 kph.
And lights are not 129 kph at the Extreme Speeds.
A single AC/20 in its source material would do the damage of two AC/20s in MWO. This is because of double armor.

These are the reasons for quirks.

let me just sum it up - it was designed for situations which do not exist in MWO - so it should be quirked to the point where it can be used for other roles for which it was not designed? Did I get that right?

you see the problem I have with the Urbanmech is - it was mentioned as a joke a couple of time and somehow people jumped on that and said they wanted to have it in MWO - and they did it over and over again.

Now we'll get it wether we want it or not - another mech - and PGI has the problem that on the one side they have to create a mech - cause people pay for it - and on the other side to balance it somehow with the rest of the game - which is not really possible cause the scenarios which it is designed for do not exist in MWO. Actually BALANCE is the main problem the game has - and instead of giving PGI time to actually work on that - people ask for more mechs and expect every mech to be just as good as every mech - making it more and more complicated with every mech we get and really worse with the Urbanmech cause of all its design flaws (with respect to MWO).

seriously - this is like people in WoW asking for a chuck norris class - its just a joke, a really bad one but still a joke

[Foxfire kadrpg]

These are offered with genuine thought, although I would not surprised if they are declined:

Stealing from Utilyan

100% reverse speed

+200% Light acceleration speed

My own:

+50% torso twist speed

Immune to Headshots

No distinction between Front and Rear armor on the torsos (meaning 100% of your CT armor will be depleted before CT internals are hit)

Smaller radar signature (-50% range before detection)

These are all riduclously powerful quirks, but are offered with the idea of making a 34Kph light live long enough to justify spending money on it

either way, I don't plan on moving in the thing, I will be firing from the back of an ally's King Crab.

[occusoj]

Koniving, on 24 January 2015 - 01:52 PM, said:

Furthermore, it's designed for Urban Combat, in an environment where it can duck, Hulldown inside of buildings or in trenches, etc.
Where in this game has any of that been provided besides a couple of maps?

Nowhere. Which brings up the question why people wanted it so badly in the game if theres no role for it and why PGI should buff it through hell and back to make it viable at a role it wasnt built for?

Koniving, on 24 January 2015 - 01:52 PM, said:

A single AC/20 in its source material would do the damage of two AC/20s in MWO. This is because of double armor.
My point is we can't use most of the mech's design in this game because of the way this game was made.

And whats the "cooldown" of an AC20 in its source material? What happens there once you ride the heatscale at 80% for a long time?
Doubling armor was nice, but damage has more than doubled so far.
Besides all that, the increase in armor affects all mechs. Do I get a 100% dmg buff for my gauss-cat now? Or my Wubshee?
Thats no argument for any single-mech buff orgies.

Foxfire kadrpg, on 24 January 2015 - 02:09 PM, said:

... with the idea of making a 34Kph light live long enough to justify spending money on it

That sums it up nicely.
PGI has to buff it enough to make it worth its money. No matter if it ends up anywhere near its 32kph or role - it has to provide value for future sales.
In contrast to written off mechs like the PB or hoverjetting-HM that cry silently in a corner.

[Bishop Steiner]

MilesTeg1982, on 24 January 2015 - 01:35 PM, said:

well in that case - if its really so good - why do you need any quirks on it - stick to its role and be happy

because designed well for it's source material, and designed well for this adaptation of that material, are two different things? But of course, you know that, and are just wanting to be argumentative.

[MilesTeg1982]

Foxfire kadrpg, on 24 January 2015 - 02:09 PM, said:

These are offered with genuine thought, although I would not surprised if they are declined:

Stealing from Utilyan

100% reverse speed

+200% Light acceleration speed

My own:

+50% torso twist speed

Immune to Headshots

No distinction between Front and Rear armor on the torsos (meaning 100% of your CT armor will be depleted before CT internals are hit)

Smaller radar signature (-50% range before detection)

These are all riduclously powerful quirks, but are offered with the idea of making a 34Kph light live long enough to justify spending money on it

either way, I don't plan on moving in the thing, I will be firing from the back of an ally's King Crab.

hmm ... 200% acceleration speed, a 180-220 engine -> super lag shild - thats just what the game needs, another virtually invincible light ...

[L3mming2]

MilesTeg1982, on 24 January 2015 - 02:05 PM, said:

let me just sum it up - it was designed for situations which do not exist in MWO - so it should be quirked to the point where it can be used for other roles for which it was not designed? Did I get that right?

you see the problem I have with the Urbanmech is - it was mentioned as a joke a couple of time and somehow people jumped on that and said they wanted to have it in MWO - and they did it over and over again.

Now we'll get it wether we want it or not - another mech - and PGI has the problem that on the one side they have to create a mech - cause people pay for it - and on the other side to balance it somehow with the rest of the game - which is not really possible cause the scenarios which it is designed for do not exist in MWO. Actually BALANCE is the main problem the game has - and instead of giving PGI time to actually work on that - people ask for more mechs and expect every mech to be just as good as every mech - making it more and more complicated with every mech we get and really worse with the Urbanmech cause of all its design flaws (with respect to MWO).

seriously - this is like people in WoW asking for a chuck norris class - its just a joke, a really bad one but still a joke

i want a UM becouse i want a AC light, there is a place for that in the game, and due to quirks its posible to make anything viable.. for my part they can put a magical 6 t antygravity drive in there i dont care

[Bishop Steiner]

kapusta11, on 24 January 2015 - 01:14 PM, said:

One day people whine about low TTK, the other they're all up for cooldown quirks, did I miss something?

yes.

[Brody319]

so its okay if the urbanmech goes slow as long as we give it a speed buff
but its NOT okay to give the urbanmech a larger engine and no speed buffs?

[Bishop Steiner]

Koniving, on 24 January 2015 - 01:52 PM, said:

Few issues with that.
It's designed very well in its source material. PGI has changed how things work to such a drastic degree (never in any Mechwarrior game in history could you fire as much damage, as frequently, or have as much armor as you can in MWO... Nor did you have the kind of engine freedom to be so incredibly fast, or carry so many b.s. guns, etc. as you can in MWO).

Furthermore, it's designed for Urban Combat, in an environment where it can duck, Hulldown inside of buildings or in trenches, etc.
Where in this game has any of that been provided besides a couple of maps?

Beyond that, from what I can see and have done the Urban mech could instantly flip its arms to attack something behind it and has so many viewports for situational awareness because -- and this is comical -- it has NO torso twist. It wouldn't need it given that it would spend most of its time standing on streets or setting up ambushes.

But mediums are NOT 64.8 kph
Assaults are not 48.6 kph.
And lights are not 129 kph at the Extreme Speeds.
A single AC/20 in its source material would do the damage of two AC/20s in MWO. This is because of double armor. Add to this that EVERYTHING has maximum armor, when most things did not. The Urbanmech has as much armor in the stock form than most light mechs have, outclassing all but one Jenner, the Ravens 3L and 2X, the Jagermech, and several of the Shadowhawks. Things that it cannot do in this game.

Those are the reasons for quirks.

(Far as the no twist...)




Ain't no twisting here.

My point is we can't use most of the mech's design in this game because of the way this game was made.

I hate to do this when you were doing so well, BUT

I have to correct you on one thing (I dunno what they were thinking with the IIC) but the Urbanmech had the same rotation rules as any other mech

Highlighted in red, is the rotation ring on the original art. The chest bumpers would indeed limit how far in that direction it could spin though.

It followed all normal torso twist rules (only quads do not get torso twist) and like the rifleman and any mech lacking lower arm actuators, could flip it's weapons into the rear arc.

Otherwise, well done, nice job, carry on!

[Koniving]

MilesTeg1982, on 24 January 2015 - 02:05 PM, said:

let me just sum it up - it was designed for situations which do not exist in MWO - so it should be quirked to the point where it can be used for other roles for which it was not designed? Did I get that right?

Truth be told, no mech in MWO should ever be quirked if you want my genuine opinion.
Then again, the game should have been designed to more accurately reflect the source material.

My point is that the situations for which it is designed are in limited supply, making it difficult to play it to its strengths.
Its lack of weight to manage to do twin AC/20s to get the firepower it was meant to have (one AC/10, LBX-10, or AC/20) is an ongoing issue for Every Single Mech in the Entire Game. Not just the Urbanmech.

Quirks are, by far, a bandaid of not just this mech but on PGI's core game design.

MilesTeg1982, on 24 January 2015 - 02:05 PM, said:

Actually BALANCE is the main problem the game has - and instead of giving PGI time to actually work on that.

Clearly I can see your issue isn't really about whether or not the thing should have quirks, your issue is the fact that mechs are being made when the game sorely needs to be "rebalanced."

You can't balance a game without the existence of those things that cause issues with the balance.
I agree, balance is an issue; but such feeble attempts at making balance out of this game would not be necessary if not for the core issues PGI already created from the very start. Regardless of whether or not a new mech comes out, it has absolutely no effect on the Nerfinator who used to be doing balance, or the CEO that for some reason is currently doing balance.

Allow me to take a moment here to explain something.
Currently the person doing balance is Russ Bullock. A man with a business major that has some ambitions for game development, but in the core of things has nothing to do with the development other than dictating schedules and making decisions whether good or bad. He has nothing to do with the development of mechs -- so the creation of a mech has absolutely no sway over whether or not he is working on balance.

In the long run, we could have 750 mechs in the pipeline to churn out one after another.
It won't have any affect on the person attempting to create balance from the mangled mess that is MWO. PGI is an office in excess of 50 people.
Exactly 4 (or 5 if they hired that one guy) people in total work on developing the mechs.
Not a single one of them has ANYTHING to do with balancing the game.

[Bishop Steiner]

Brody319, on 24 January 2015 - 02:19 PM, said:

so its okay if the urbanmech goes slow as long as we give it a speed buff
but its NOT okay to give the urbanmech a larger engine and no speed buffs?

nope. But It was thrown out, so I am put it up. I haven't had a chance because of IRL to put up all suggestions (and some are obviously jokes).

Just because you or I may disagree with it, does not mean it doesn't get put on the big board.

[Koniving]

occusoj, on 24 January 2015 - 02:15 PM, said:

Doubling armor was nice, but damage has more than doubled so far.
Besides all that, the increase in armor affects all mechs. Do I get a 100% dmg buff for my gauss-cat now? Or my Wubshee?
Thats no argument for any single-mech buff orgies.

I'm well aware. But if you spent the time to read what I had stated in other posts, I'm absolutely against the quirk system to begin with; it's a bandaid on a bandaid on a bandaid.

I also stated if we pre-quirk the living **** out of the Urbanmech and every other mech we go to bring forth we'll have a Power Creep issue.

[Divine Decoy]

Urbies should get some kind of automatic bonus for hiding. The little buggers were know for hiding in/behind buildings and popping up on radar. So boost to radar deprivation module (or make it standard) to fit it's "crouching tiger, hidden dragon" surprise tactics and poptarting styles

[Brody319]

Bishop Steiner, on 24 January 2015 - 02:29 PM, said:

nope. But It was thrown out, so I am put it up. I haven't had a chance because of IRL to put up all suggestions (and some are obviously jokes).

Just because you or I may disagree with it, does not mean it doesn't get put on the big board.

I was just bringing up that some people want the urbanmech to have a low engine cap, but want it to be buffed in speed.
instead of just giving it a higher engine cap and not bother giving it a "25% speed increase" quirk.