315 replies to this topic

[CheeseThief]

I'm a fan of balancing by numbers, 2 lances against 1 star.

The Star/Lance balance divide could essentially give this game an alliance/hoard (for lack of a better analogy) feel to it. Clan mechs get match made into stars, IS mechs into the double lance, so we could get lances vs lances, star vs star, lances vs star and generally make the matchmaking a lot more random and a lot more interesting.

Different players will be attracted to different factions, clans will attract the people who like going rambo, where as the IS will attract players who enjoy the scouting and support roles more, simply because there will be 3 less people around to hunt them. Bad IS teams get solo'd out and stomped by the faster and tougher clan tech, good IS teams have 3 extra players so they can afford dedicated scouts and support mechs, as well as unengaged mechs to backstab into duels and such.



Balancing the clans to be equal to the IS mechs is a travesty of gameplay and flavour, especially when there are so many different ways to make it fun and interesting for everyone.

[Mechwarrior Buddah]

Endless Ike, on 28 June 2012 - 06:27 PM, said:

Agree with this, and I can tell already that some of the backlash to some of the suggested forms of balancing is coming from wanna-be munchkins who aren't really looking for competition or "fun"...just god-like power. Having a bunch of munchkins is the fastest way to destroy this game.

Try re-reading at LEAST what I just said. Im not looking for god like power Im looking for a CHALLENGING FIGHT

And there IS a way they balance out IN THE GAME.

IS lances are 4 mechs
Clan stars are 3 mechs

You already get one more mech than they do, what more are you really looking for?

[Da Ugh 1701]

everyone has some good points on 'Clan Tech'. My belief is that if/when they do bring Clan tech, it should be more expensive to get & maintain/repair. I've read the books & enjoyed the heck out of them. most I/S pilots got their mechs from the 'spoils of war' and when a part goes bad (ie. laser, heat sink) they either replace it with I/S version or get lucky & take out a clanner in battle & swap out parts. In short, if and when Clan tech shows up, make it costly and as for mechs, the same thing. The clan equipment is better, yes, but it's because it's lighter and has better to heat to damage ratio compared to I/S weapons. but I/S is catching up, slowly. My suggestion, keep it all I/S for a while, then slowly introduce the Clans.

[BFalcon]

514yer, on 28 June 2012 - 06:30 PM, said:

IS lances are 4 mechs
Clan stars are 3 mechs

Psst... Clan Stars are 5 mechs - as in a 5-pointed star? So a Star and a double-lance would be roughly equal.

[Alexander Diaz]

514yer, on 28 June 2012 - 06:30 PM, said:

Try re-reading at LEAST what I just said. Im not looking for god like power Im looking for a CHALLENGING FIGHT

And there IS a way they balance out IN THE GAME.

IS lances are 4 mechs
Clan stars are 3 mechs

You already get one more mech than they do, what more are you really looking for?

? Since when?

Clan Stars are comprised of 5 Mechs.

The typical confrontation would be 3 lances =(12 mechs) to 1 Star (5 Clan mechs).

[Da Ugh 1701]

514yer, on 28 June 2012 - 06:30 PM, said:

Try re-reading at LEAST what I just said. Im not looking for god like power Im looking for a CHALLENGING FIGHT

And there IS a way they balance out IN THE GAME.

IS lances are 4 mechs
Clan stars are 3 mechs

You already get one more mech than they do, what more are you really looking for?

actually from reading the books,
Lances are 4 mechs for the I/S
Stars are 5 mechs (there are 5 points to a star)
so, in that regard, Clan has the advantage

[Joseph Mallan]

Endless Ike, on 28 June 2012 - 06:27 PM, said:

Agree with this, and I can tell already that some of the backlash to some of the suggested forms of balancing is coming from wanna-be munchkins who aren't really looking for competition or "fun"...just god-like power. Having a bunch of munchkins is the fastest way to destroy this game.

I don't know, We've dealt with munchkins for 25+ years on TT. There are ways of dealing with them... Evil ways!

[Bick]

I believe that forcing the clans (when they come) to follow the bidding process will keep the fun (challenge) in any confrontation. i.e. A lance vs a point (or one clan mech for you new to the game) .

[Endless Ike]

Irreverence, on 28 June 2012 - 05:49 PM, said:

The clans had their disadvantages too. For example, their weapons generate a lot more heat. There really shouldn't be any balancing to begin with. How did the inner sphere get around their "advanced" weapons? They fought in close.

There will be zero (0) casual players playing as IS if the devs stick to canon overpowered Clans. I know you want to live out your (roleplay) fantasy, but no one wants to (get lulstomped) for the next 4 years. It *MIGHT* be fun for a short while, if done correctly, but certainly not for the entire period of the clan invasion. I think the Battle Values idea is a good one, but I also think a month long Dev/PvE/random lottery players in a Clan Invasion event could be great fun. After which the losttech/clantech IS parts become available to IS units and some kind of BV/numeric advantage is adherred to to make it at least SLIGHTLY balanced.

Edited by Mason Grimm, 29 June 2012 - 08:01 AM.
Adjusted to be a little more friendly after receiving reports.

[Aethon]

The devs have already mentioned at one point, although I can't be arsed to dig up the quote, that balance between Clans and IS will likely constitute a numerical advantage on the IS side (Company vs. Binary, or 1 star vs. 2 lances, for example). If the IS ends up getting Clan tech at some point, YOU will be the ones getting an advantage, because you'll have numbers AND equivalent tech.

The fact is, as I've pointed out in previous threads, the devs know about Clan tech. They know it isn't canonically on par with IS tech, or even IS lostech. They're not ignorant to the problem. I think you should give them at least a little bit of credit there, and see what they whip up for us.

[Gorith]

Balancing with numbers is a good way to do it and it either needs to be:

1. Clans has better tech but field less players per match
2. Clans are on par mech for mech with IS and field equal units

I think the first seems more interesting from a gameplay point. That being said if it is the first IS pilots should never be able to use Clan mechs/gear lest it unblance it and/or invalidate the use of many non clan mechs

[Endless Ike]

514yer, on 28 June 2012 - 06:30 PM, said:

Try re-reading at LEAST what I just said. Im not looking for god like power Im looking for a CHALLENGING FIGHT

And there IS a way they balance out IN THE GAME.

IS lances are 4 mechs
Clan stars are 3 mechs

You already get one more mech than they do, what more are you really looking for?

It's worth noting that I didn't identify anyone by name, Just something to think about.

[trycksh0t]

Clan 'Mechs are already 5-times as expensive as an equivalent tonnage IS BattleMech, why should they be "equal"? If you're paying 5-times more for something, you should get 5-times the performance out of it. No matter how you slice it, no Clan Omni is 5-times better than it's IS equivalent. They should also, in theory, cost 5-times as much to repair and maintain. Now knowing how C-bill rewards are going to look, that could be a serious blow to their viability. Even running a premium account, which we know confers a 50% C-bill bonus, shouldn't cover the costs of repair/reload on an Omni that gets ripped up (which will happen).

[Endless Ike]

Gorith, on 28 June 2012 - 06:42 PM, said:

Balancing with numbers is a good way to do it and it either needs to be:

1. Clans has better tech but field less players per match
2. Clans are on par mech for mech with IS and field equal units

I think the first seems more interesting from a gameplay point. That being said if it is the first IS pilots should never be able to use Clan mechs/gear lest it unblance it and/or invalidate the use of many non clan mechs

A blended Battle Value system which takes into account Clan vs. IS could easily be used to accommodate advances to IS tech.Might make matchmaking pretty cumbersome though, especially if you have units in your guild that you regularly play with.

Edited by Endless Ike, 28 June 2012 - 06:46 PM.

[BFalcon]

Endless Ike, on 28 June 2012 - 06:40 PM, said:

There will be zero (0) casual players playing as IS if the devs stick to canon overpowered Clans. I know you want to live out your munchkin OP fantasy, but no one wants to play the role of your patsy for the next 4 years. It *MIGHT* be fun for a shortwhile, if done correctly, but certainly not for the entire period of the clan invasion. I think the Battle Values idea is a good one, but I also think a month long Dev/PvE/random lottery players in a Clan Invasion event could be great fun. After which the losttech/clantech IS parts become available to IS units and some kind of BV/numeric advantage is adherred to to make it at least SLIGHTLY balanced.

2 things - 1) a random selection for such an event would be a poor idea - they should hand-pick members for this - not least so that they have all time-zones covered. 2) Most of the people arguing for the imbalance are actually those intending (at least initially) to go IS and fight the clans. I may, after a while, go clan, but that all depends on who I meet up with and which side they're on. I'm currently, as far as MWO is concerned, unattached.

[Endless Ike]

trycksh0t, on 28 June 2012 - 06:44 PM, said:

Clan 'Mechs are already 5-times as expensive as an equivalent tonnage IS BattleMech, why should they be "equal"? If you're paying 5-times more for something, you should get 5-times the performance out of it. No matter how you slice it, no Clan Omni is 5-times better than it's IS equivalent. They should also, in theory, cost 5-times as much to repair and maintain. Now knowing how C-bill rewards are going to look, that could be a serious blow to their viability. Even running a premium account, which we know confers a 50% C-bill bonus, shouldn't cover the costs of repair/reload on an Omni that gets ripped up (which will happen).

I think thats the worst of all proposed solutions. So the only people who will be piloting clan tech are poeple who have paid to get some c-bill bonus, or people who have been playing so long that money is no longer an object. I plan on being a hardcore player, but a game that just subjects newbs to a repeated unavoidable ***-raping at the hands of the veterans is not a winning formula.

[Aethon]

Endless Ike, on 28 June 2012 - 06:45 PM, said:

A blended Battle Value system which takes into account Clan vs. IS could easily be used to accommodate advances to IS tech.Might make matchmaking pretty cumbersome though, especially if you have units in your guild that you regularly play with.

This. Another option would be to give the IS force more available tonnage. When you consider that many Clan dropships were originally IS models that were updated to carry multiples of 5 instead of 4, this makes sense.

This could also be incorporated into an automatic bidding system; whatever forces with which the IS team defends their holdings, the Clan team must use 30% less tonnage, or something like that.

Then again, this would not take into account whatever Clan tech the IS team is using; BV really is the way to go here, I think, although that'll take some serious balancing to come up with.

Edited by Aethon, 28 June 2012 - 06:52 PM.

[Endless Ike]

Aethon, on 28 June 2012 - 06:51 PM, said:

This. Another option would be to give the IS force more available tonnage. When you consider that many Clan dropships were originally IS models that were updated to carry multiples of 5 instead of 4, this makes sense.

This could also be incorporated into an automatic bidding system; whatever forces with which the IS team defends their holdings, the Clan team must use 30% less tonnage, or something like that.

Then again, this would not take into account whatever Clan tech the IS team is using; BV really is the way to go here, I think, although that'll take some serious balancing to come up with.

Well if each part has a BV value, it wouldn't be hard to balance if the clan had to have 30% less (or 20% less) BV than the IS.

[Mechwarrior Buddah]

BFalcon, on 28 June 2012 - 06:31 PM, said:

Psst... Clan Stars are 5 mechs - as in a 5-pointed star? So a Star and a double-lance would be roughly equal.

oops lol been a while my bad but yeah 5 vs 8

Endless Ike, on 28 June 2012 - 06:42 PM, said:

It's worth noting that I didn't identify anyone by name, but you apparently self-identified as a wanna-be munchkin. Just something to think about.

worth reading my posts before you flame me buddy

[Kael Tropheus]

I completely disagree with the OP. Clans should be outnumbered, 10 to 12. They should also use an honor based economy, which is extremely simple to code in. This will keep the munchkins out for the most part when everytime they go gung ho and shoot anything that moves they lose 75% of their potential earned honor for the round. Yeah, go requistitiion repairs and ammo after a few rounds of getting only 25% of what you could have gotten let alone try and get a new mech. What this means, any clanner that starts a Grand Melee takes a huge honor hit. IS if they are smart can use this to their advantage luring clanners into traps and so forth. So easy to code it isnt funny, WoW has been doing it for years, I think the devs can pull it off now.

Additionally having a bonus or penalty based on size is another great balancing method. You Dire Wolf vs the IS Jenner, you get no honor off that, while the Cougar taking out an Atlas, enjoy the bonus honor, you earned it. This will automatically mean you will see few heavy and assault mechs, and most clanners will take mediums and lights. Balance achieved.