315 replies to this topic

[Aethon]

Blue Shadow, on 29 June 2012 - 04:02 AM, said:

I made a BV related post on a previous page and wondered why it gets ignored - and so far my post has been ignored I certainly thought it sounded logical when I wrote it haha even if my BT knowledge has some holes in it! I could see it working like the points system in 40K where every unit and upgrade has a price, it works well especially considering the slow release cycle of army books.

lol Your post is exactly one of the ones to which I was referring. It's been said several times before I mentioned it, but the people who want an argument keep ignoring it and crying about a supposed balance problem, even though the Clans aren't even in beta yet from what I've heard, much less live.

I agree 100%, too; with the gradual release of new technology here and there, balancing only by unit numbers is going to be difficult; if the battle value is properly set for each item, it will be *almost* fire-and-forget. New item? No big deal...set a BV for it. If the new item's BV is set properly, they won't have to change anything else in the game to maintain the same balance.

[Kumakichi]

Lightdragon, on 28 June 2012 - 04:32 PM, said:

...or we could just not have clans, all the clans attract is people with god complexes, horrible roleplayers, and ignorant noobs that dont even bother to read up on the history of the bt universe

OMG this happens in most MMO's I've played. Do you suppose they are clanners in disquise?

[Fire for Effect]

Firstoff I do not like the Clan era

Now to the Main event:

I am surprised few came up with the obvious:

Points system; for all Mechs in existence there is a Point Value already calculated, there are several Sourcebooks filled with units BPV and how to calculate it. It will invariable end that the Clanners (may they stay away forever...) will be outnumbered or outweighted. Since the Clans were efficiency crazy, they never attacked with "too much" so you can even justify it withhin the already existing literature.

You can even add the bid process in the attack of a planet. "no I can do it with 500 points of Mechs less"

So you do not need to make a mech by mech balancing which is unnecessary anyway. Mech are not balanced anyway. An Urbanmech is just not equal to a Marauder (where is it by the way )

[Kael Tropheus]

I am surprised no one who is a clanner backs up the honor system. It is a very easy system to enforce as it is totally self regulating, would definately stop the munchkins and power gamers and reward those for following clan code. Plus it would reduce the numbers of Timber and Dire Wolves running around by a lot. Huge total penalty for the player that breaks Zell and starts a melee. Progressive bonus honor points for killing a mech bigger than the pilot's and degressive(is that a word?) points for killing smaller less threatening mechs(the bigger the difference in mech size, the bigger the penalty/bonus). People will not want to play the bigger mechs as they wont get as much honor to do repairs and purchase more ammo or other mechs with. Pilots will always be trying to bite off more than they can chew in a bid to gain more honor. Along with the standard of organization of 10 clanners vs 12 IS. This is a perfect system for creating the army of heroes the way the clans are supposed to fight. Nothing I have seen so far on here even comes close to the correct way to bring them in.

[Viper69]

If it goes long enough the lack of clans will be a disservice to the game in general. How good of a mech pilot are you that you want nerfs or not added all simply because its an obstacle too hard to surmount. If the IS thought along those lines the clans would have just retaken all the core worlds in a few years and poof. No, the IS fought tooth and nail and prevailed in many cases even against great odds, yet you want to deny someone the same chance to perform a feat of unbelievable skill/luck? No thanks. I want to fight an uphill battle, stand on top of a pile of clan mechs, pillage what I can and use them against them. You know why? Because I want to kick ***, take names and get my hands on some clan tech.

[Syro]

Alexander Diaz, on 28 June 2012 - 04:54 PM, said:

Woah! That's news to me! Sources! Sources! I thumb my nose at this statement and declare it an untruth!

I think what he is saying is that if you make clantech avialable for purchase, even at obscene costs, at the outset of the invasion, you seriuosly break canon. Clantech was flat out not available to folks in the inner sphere until Tywcross and Wolcot. No mechs had been taken as salvage prior to this. It wasn't until after these victories (nearly 18 months in) that Wolfs Dragoons brough people to outreach for training and began disseminating some of the clan tech.

Now, there is no reason that Starleage tech couldn't start to filter into the market between the invasion kickoff and Wolcott. That would help shore up the gaps some.

Edited by Syro, 29 June 2012 - 06:27 AM.

[Project_Mercy]

BT already had a system for balancing assaults, rare tech, and clans. It was called BV. It came out specifically to deal with this. All these systems you're coming up with are basically flavors of that. PGI has thrown out BV and anything of a similar concept. They're going to try to balance things on a role basis. So talking about BV-esque methods for balancing isn't going to peak their interest.


One of two things will happen when clans hit

• Clan mechs will be balanced per the role, making them different, but not more powerful
  
• it's just going to be like any other expansion in an MMO. It's power creep for the purpose of invalidating everyone else's stuff and require everyone to ante up again. Everyone will be in mechs equipped with clan tech

I'm sure the first is what they want, and I'm guessing the second is what it will actually be, especially when they realize the role thing isn't working well and they need the clan mechs as a cash grab in the cash shop.

[zencynic]

Greyrook, on 28 June 2012 - 04:37 PM, said:

Clan tech isn't literally "more powerful."

Yes, yes it is. Sure there are some cases that are balanced-ish/close-to-balanced/balance-attempted, whatever you want to call it.

And then there are a large number of instances where clan tech is literally more powerful. All +, no -.

for quick reference, check out http://www.sarna.net...Equipment_Lists

Off the top of my head, I would say look at LRMs, Pulse Lasers, ER Large laser, Double Heat Sinks, XL Engines, FF Armor, EndoSteel Internals, Gauss Rifle, Ultra AC/20, LBX10... I'm sure there are more.

**** Comments on Possible Solutions ****
I have low faith in an Honor system
A Battle Value System might work
For the love of Kerensky, don't make it premium content

[Jakebob]

Clans are a long ways away... no need to even worry about it yet.

The Devs seem to have a pretty good grasp on the canon, I'm sure they'll balance it appropriately when the time comes..

[Schtirlitz]

A number of ways to even the sides war stated before.
So we wait for the method the devs will apply in game

[csebal]

Ain't it a little early to worry about clan mechs? From what I've seen of things, we are at the beginning of the clan invasion timeline wise, meaning that they only just appeared on the periphery. I believe that the clan mechs and equipment will be a natural extension for the game half a year to a year down the road.

As for balancing them.. we can cross that bridge once we get there.

[Endless Ike]

Joseph Mallan, on 28 June 2012 - 07:02 PM, said:

Endless You do understand that the Star League tech was inferior to Clan Tech also right? It wasn't till we started to grasp Clan tactics and manipulate them that the Inner Sphere began winning engagements. At The great Refusal on Tukayyid, ComStar only won the trail due to beating the Clans weak supply line. Are the Clanners going to follow the canon and fight normally?

Yes, thats why i said lost tech and IS tech upgraded with clan improvements would achieve something only slightly balanced. far better than 3025 Tech vs. Clan anyway.

[Felicitatem Parco]

If Clan equipment is made "on par" with Inner Sphere equipment, then you might as well throw the rulebooks away entirely.

Why not No Heat, Unlimited Ammo? That sounds fun. Or, how about we make the AC/20 shoot 700 meters with special Long-Range Ammo? Oh, we could also give all the Mechs unlimited JumpJets! Yeah...

[TimberJon]

Screw that! As Prosperity said, lets make MW3: Hacked again. /sarcasm

Edited by TimberJon, 29 June 2012 - 08:02 AM.

[The Wiener Bandit]

How it always worked in the past was that Clan mechs and weapons were flat out better, but were somewhere aroune 150% of the cost. Would you rather have an IS 100 ton Atlas, or a clan 75 ton Madcat (Timberwolf) for the same price? I believe some sort of balancing like this would work for this game. Perhaps your team only has 100 million c-bills or whatever to use to purchase mechs and weapons before a match, and if you want clan mechs and weapons, you'll have to sacrifice tonnage or flat number of mechs on fhe field. Something like that would work well.

Edited by OreoCookieSP, 29 June 2012 - 08:09 AM.

[BLeeD]

BFalcon, on 28 June 2012 - 04:39 PM, said:

Also, they can make it so that we'll lose against them most times (whoopee) but end up winning big time on the cash and XP fronts - a win doesn't necessarily need to be an actual win - dealing enough damage while losing can just be enough.

\

Really, Really, I would like you to say that when you are defending your planets , or attacking a planet to hold. Yeah a loss is as good as a win,, get out of here !!!

Edited by BLeeD, 29 June 2012 - 08:06 AM.

[MiniChiken]

How about we all start off playing IS, then once the clan invasions begin we can partake in trials to earn the right to pilot Clan mechs. These trials could be held by devs or extremely OP AI. Once you pass the trial, if you pass the trial, then you can use that mech which you unlock in regular matches with the only rule being that you have to uphold the clan rules of engagement unless they're broken first (this last part could be tossed since you're a dirty freeborn anyway).

[Remarius]

Syro, on 29 June 2012 - 06:27 AM, said:

I think what he is saying is that if you make clantech avialable for purchase, even at obscene costs, at the outset of the invasion, you seriuosly break canon. Clantech was flat out not available to folks in the inner sphere until Tywcross and Wolcot. No mechs had been taken as salvage prior to this. It wasn't until after these victories (nearly 18 months in) that Wolfs Dragoons brough people to outreach for training and began disseminating some of the clan tech.

Now, there is no reason that Starleage tech couldn't start to filter into the market between the invasion kickoff and Wolcott. That would help shore up the gaps some.

Have to pick up on that because its innacurate. Twycross and Wolcot were the first two victories by the Inner Sphere over the clans and have no relation to when the first salvage was available. The reality is we have no idea when the first salvage was available as the novels covered maybe 1% of what happened in the innersphere and from specific viewpoints. There are also technicians fitting and maintaining clan items well before Wolf's Dragoons started training outsiders formally to use clan tech - the Gray Death Legion is well documented for that and its mentioned on several other units.

[Madog]

Unless they have a good AI for the game, the Clans will be playable in a year or so. And I've thought about the advantages they'll have --

Much better weapons, ligher engines and armor, omni hardpoints. Anyone playing them will have an advantage.

I can see ways to account for this though. Give IS players a numerical advantage. The Clan stars are 5 mechs, so make it 2 stars vs. 3 lances. And give IS mechs a weight advantage in random matches, maybe 500 total tons for Clan vs. 800 tons for IS.

There is also an economic side of things. I have no idea how the Clan economy would work, but I doubt they will have c-bills. Maybe you get some sort of honor points from battles that can be used to upgrade. Regardless, making class items more expensive for players will keep things more balanced.

[Novakaine]

Hah dang clan junkies won't happen for years....... Hopefully