315 replies to this topic

[Future Perfect]

1. The Clans will most likely be a NPC faction.

2. No need to nerf Clan mechs based on 1.

3. People will eventually want better mechs and they shall receave.

[Voyager I]

Insidious Johnson, on 28 June 2012 - 10:45 PM, said:

Clans will need to be ABOVE par, mech to mech, to handle most mercenary units. IF there is salvage, clan tech should be a hard fought trophy, not a common drop ( like the sound most clanners make on impact with the ground ).

If we allow Clan tech to work on IS mechs at all, it's going to wreak havoc with whatever balance they've been trying to establish.

IS vs Clan with asymmetrical teams could potentially be balanced, assuming it didn't just turn into Clan vs IS piloting Clan mechs loaded out with Clan weapons.


Making it "hard to find" won't really work as a control method, because sooner or later the people who play the game seriously will have as much of it as they need. You'll just be increasing the grind factor along the way and making the game less welcoming to fresh blood.

[CaptainZot]

Clan stuff needs to be exactly as awe inspiring as it was when it was first introduced into the TT game. It caused major shockwaves in the inner sphere and pushed their technology forward. They had to compensate to catch up or be destroyed. The fact that it is going to disrupt the established playstyles of the playerbase is irrelevant. Devs will do something so that matches can still be balanced even though clan tech is hugely superior. Just adjusting the numbers of mechs available to a clan side in a battle against IS forces would be a fine start.

[Tyrgrim]

Xune, I was actually making a serious suggestion. I think yours is a bit over the top, and too easily exploited by griefers.

[Phasics]

glad we don't have to worry about this for 12-24months at least

[CobraFive]

BFalcon, on 28 June 2012 - 05:38 PM, said:

If you don't care about Battletech, what attracts you to this game?

The biggest attraction for most is the history/storyline that enriches the background...

(Not trying to argue, just can't imagine that players that are attracted to the MW series actually care nothing for the setting.)

What? Giant robots fighting!

I'm wondering just the opposite... why someone would play for the lore and histroy and not mech fights. Besides there's not going to be like... cutscenes and mission briefings and stuff, unless the devs have some crazy bombshell up their sleeve.

[Aethon]

Guys, this isn't rocket science. It's been said many times in this and other threads: if a BV (Battle Value) system is used, and a certain value is applied to each chassis, heat sink, weapon, ton of ammo, engine, etc., it will be very easy to ensure that the battles are relatively even. It will be impossible to achieve 100% perfect balance ALL the time with two such different forces, but this is as good as it can get.

I don't understand why people ignore the BV-related posts, and keep beating around the bush. It's like the people who go to the store, ignore the tomato sauce that's conveniently placed next to the pasta, then spend half an hour looking around the produce area for it. The answer is right in front of you.

Next up, the idea that Clan mechs are 'five times more powerful than IS mechs'. Really? So, you think that, if a Dire Wolf faced off against 5 Atlases, it would win? That, if pitted against 5 Marauders, a Timberwolf would come out on top? Seriously...think about what you're saying.

Also, 5 Clan mechs vs. 12 IS mechs is not always balanced. 12 Atlases vs. 5 Dire Wolves? Nope, sorry. This would only work if the IS force brought a total of about 50% surplus tonnage to the fight. So...12 Marauders vs. 5 Dire Wolves? That's more like it. You end up with 2 Marauders for each Dire Wolf, plus 2 extra.

But what about those times when you have Clanners like me, who don't like using assault mechs? Hmmm...drop one Dire Wolf down to a Stormcrow at 55 tons. Then, say, someone wanted to drive their Kit Fox...and someone else likes their Nova, and someone else is rollin' a Summoner. Those 12 IS mechs couldn't still all be Marauders if you wanted the game to be balanced, as much of a glorious, outmached battle as it would be.

Now, another thing to consider: let's say, later on, all those Marauders are sporting twin CERPPC's, CDHS, CES, CFF, and all sorts of other toys. 12 Marauders vs. 5 Dire Wolves is no longer a remotely balanced fight, even if the Dire Wolves ditched Zell from the word GO.

So...again...BV is truly the only real way to balance this, especially given the rapid rate of technological change in the Inner Sphere once the Clans arrive, and the vast array of different tech level equipment available to them at any point.

Sorry if I come off as annoyed, but when people keep spreading misinformation and missing the obvious, easy, simple solutions, it's kind of frustrating.

[Wolftrap]

I discussed this on another thread and the idea that I think would balance the issue the most is....12vs10 or a company vs a binary. Lore talks about clans bidding on what numbers it'd take to conquer a planet or win a certain battle(sometimes underbidding). The clan mechs I think would offset the 2 mech advantage that Inner Sphere players would have.

[MrMasakari]

IS stuff eventually becomes very very good actually, after the clan invasion, it forced the IS to develop new technologies and actually improve. Almost on par with Clan tech. But I do have to agree, they should make the Clan mechs very expensive to field and repair. Clanners were meant to be OP when they first showed, then in time once the secrets of the clan tech was studied the IS eventually started catching up.

Personally I wouldn't worry about the issue too much. PGI won't put them in the game stupidly OP, or if so, not without a heavy consequence atleast. i.e. Teamsize drops to 8v12 And as said its probably more than a year away, which gives plenty of time for speculation. Im personally not bothered if they just nerf them so they are as good as IS or just give IS new stuff to be almost on par with them. I'll play them regardless.

[Tincan Nightmare]

This is where you actually have to compare an IS mech to a Clan mech to see the difference. Lets go with a Mad Cat/Timber Wolf in its primary configuration and a Rakshasa (an IS clone of the Mad Cat though it doesn't show up for several years.)

Both machines have identical total tonnage (75 tons) and the same movement (5/8 or a max speed of around 80kph.) The Mad Cat has 12 tons of Clan FF armor giving it 230 armor points while the Rakshasa has 11.5 tons of IS FF armor for 206 armor points, giving the Mad Cat a narrow 24 point advantage. Both machines have 15 double heat sinks, and both use endo steel internals. For weapons, the Mad Cat has 2 ER lg. lasers, 2 ER med. lasers, 2 LRM 20's with 1 ton of ammo apiece (6 shots), 2 MG's, and 1 med. pulse laser. It also adds 2 heat sinks. The Rakshasa has 2 ER lg. lasers, 2 med. lasers, 2 LRM 10's with Artemis FCS and 1 ton of ammo apiece (12 shots), and 1 med. pulse laser.

Now the Clan ER lg. lasers outrange their IS counterparts by 100 meters and do 10 points of damage vs 8 points for the IS, with both generating 12 heat points. The Clan ER med. lasers do 2 points more damage then the IS standard med. lasers and have nearly double the range, but do 5 points of heat vs 3 points for the IS lasers. The med. pulse lasers do nearly the same damage (the IS does 1 point less) for the same heat generated, but the Clan version has double the range. So in comparison of the energy weapons, the true advantage for the Mad Cat against the Rakshasa is reach and a slight damage increase, though it runs slightly hotter.

For the LRM's, the Mad Cat has twice the throw weight of the Rakshasa, pumping out 40 missiles vs 20. This is slightly offset by the Rakshasa having Artemis IV since it increases how many missiles hit. Also the total number of missiles carried is the same at 120 for the Mad Cat and 120 for the Rakshasa, so the lighter Clan LRM's mostly allow them to be put out in 6 double salvos vs 12 double salvos for the Rakshasa. And of course the Rakshasa doensn't mount MG's.

Overall of course the Mad Cat is superior to the Rakshasa, but not to a factor of 2 to 1. Two Rakshasa would be able to destroy a single Mad Cat though they would take damage. Clan tech is superior but it isn't that superior. If IS pilots can keep the fights in close quarters and negate the range advantage they will have removed a large part of the Clans advantage.

Another important factor is the pilots. In the TT, Clan pilots generally had higher gunnery and piloting scores in comparison to IS pilots, allowing them to hit more often and manuever better. In MWO since we are controlling the mechs directly, the Clans will not get an automatic boost in ability to aim or drive their mechs, it will be based purely on each players skill.

[Xune]

Tyrgrim, on 28 June 2012 - 11:27 PM, said:

Xune, I was actually making a serious suggestion. I think yours is a bit over the top, and too easily exploited by griefers.

I know i know, im sorry for it. But honestly all the Clan-Fanboys who want nothing more then ther overpowered toy which can kill 4 IS mechs at the same time start to bore me a lot.

The problem is, even with Zellbringer rule CLan-clans (um.. that sounds odd) might say " screw exp and money" and focus fire everything down in 4-5 Seconds just to win the match and mayhap win the planet.

And you KNOW its going to happen. So a mere exp/money penalty isent enough. If a clan unit would behave like this they would be severly punished.

[GreenHawk]

NeoThoR, on 28 June 2012 - 05:35 PM, said:

Or people like me who just don't care about the history...

except if the developers want the game to continue, they need to please the players, and in a years time, that will probably be the people that do care about the story / history.

So if only those people pay, then who gets listened to?

[LordLoki]

I hope they wait with the clans coming to the game.

[Urulf]

No, just and plain no. Clan mech were overpowered when they first appeared for a reason, and that fully defeat the "need to be on par" of this topic.

[StealthSlicer]

LordLoki, on 29 June 2012 - 02:40 AM, said:

I hope they wait with the clans coming to the game.

They will, 1 day in the real world is 1 day in the MWO world, and since MWO is starting prior to the Clan invasion, we will have to wait for a while.

[BFalcon]

Phasics, on 28 June 2012 - 11:28 PM, said:

glad we don't have to worry about this for 12-24months at least

9 months until March 3050, I believe - that's when the Clans first appear on the Periphery if I recall - they then quickly moved into RR territory, as well as DC and Steiner. I would guess that we'd start to hear about them in March and they'd probably go live late March or early April.

[ScientificMethod]

Xune, on 29 June 2012 - 12:48 AM, said:

I know i know, im sorry for it. But honestly all the Clan-Fanboys who want nothing more then ther overpowered toy which can kill 4 IS mechs at the same time start to bore me a lot.

The problem is, even with Zellbringer rule CLan-clans (um.. that sounds odd) might say " screw exp and money" and focus fire everything down in 4-5 Seconds just to win the match and mayhap win the planet.

And you KNOW its going to happen. So a mere exp/money penalty isent enough. If a clan unit would behave like this they would be severly punished.

This is such an obvious abuse that there has to be a way to watch for and counter it. I'd be more worried about clan mechs intentionally walking into lines of fire to be allowed additional targets, of course that's entirely cannon and something the IS can adapt their tactics for.

[GHQCommander]

Lightdragon, on 28 June 2012 - 04:32 PM, said:

...or we could just not have clans, all the clans attract is people with god complexes, horrible roleplayers, and ignorant noobs that dont even bother to read up on the history of the bt universe

I agree with most of this.

Don't have them. I think the developers could spend 3 years adding a lot of cool things without Clans at all. The factions, Lone Wolf and Mech Corps will be enough. Maybe enough forever. Why make everything even more complex if it does not actually add to the gameplay, the fun.

Lets get perfection in what they have added and will be added within the next few months first.

[Morang]

Don't nerf the Clans. Make 'em bid, balance their income so that they only may earn money by defeating outnumbering force or just drop a Clan star against IS company... Would be fun for me to participate in swarming the clansters with superior numbers or stomping them with superior tonnage. It's great to have different modes of combat - I doubt Inner Sphere conflicts would be extinguished as soon as the Clans invade, and Clans also have issues between them. So we would get IS vs IS, IS vs Clans and Clans vs Clans modes. Clans vs Clans may also be different (though being balanced in terms of technology, bidding may still be in place and Zell enforced, unlike in the the fights against IS).

[Blue Shadow]

Aethon, on 28 June 2012 - 11:38 PM, said:

Guys, this isn't rocket science. It's been said many times in this and other threads: if a BV (Battle Value) system is used, and a certain value is applied to each chassis, heat sink, weapon, ton of ammo, engine, etc., it will be very easy to ensure that the battles are relatively even. It will be impossible to achieve 100% perfect balance ALL the time with two such different forces, but this is as good as it can get.

I don't understand why people ignore the BV-related posts, and keep beating around the bush. It's like the people who go to the store, ignore the tomato sauce that's conveniently placed next to the pasta, then spend half an hour looking around the produce area for it. The answer is right in front of you.

Next up, the idea that Clan mechs are 'five times more powerful than IS mechs'. Really? So, you think that, if a Dire Wolf faced off against 5 Atlases, it would win? That, if pitted against 5 Marauders, a Timberwolf would come out on top? Seriously...think about what you're saying.

Also, 5 Clan mechs vs. 12 IS mechs is not always balanced. 12 Atlases vs. 5 Dire Wolves? Nope, sorry. This would only work if the IS force brought a total of about 50% surplus tonnage to the fight. So...12 Marauders vs. 5 Dire Wolves? That's more like it. You end up with 2 Marauders for each Dire Wolf, plus 2 extra.

But what about those times when you have Clanners like me, who don't like using assault mechs? Hmmm...drop one Dire Wolf down to a Stormcrow at 55 tons. Then, say, someone wanted to drive their Kit Fox...and someone else likes their Nova, and someone else is rollin' a Summoner. Those 12 IS mechs couldn't still all be Marauders if you wanted the game to be balanced, as much of a glorious, outmached battle as it would be.

Now, another thing to consider: let's say, later on, all those Marauders are sporting twin CERPPC's, CDHS, CES, CFF, and all sorts of other toys. 12 Marauders vs. 5 Dire Wolves is no longer a remotely balanced fight, even if the Dire Wolves ditched Zell from the word GO.

So...again...BV is truly the only real way to balance this, especially given the rapid rate of technological change in the Inner Sphere once the Clans arrive, and the vast array of different tech level equipment available to them at any point.

Sorry if I come off as annoyed, but when people keep spreading misinformation and missing the obvious, easy, simple solutions, it's kind of frustrating.

I made a BV related post on a previous page and wondered why it gets ignored - and so far my post has been ignored I certainly thought it sounded logical when I wrote it haha even if my BT knowledge has some holes in it! I could see it working like the points system in 40K where every unit and upgrade has a price, it works well especially considering the slow release cycle of army books.