315 replies to this topic

[BFalcon]

lllWAVElll, on 28 June 2012 - 05:10 PM, said:

You mean something like a Operation Revival event that has been proposed by some random genius.

I suggested the exact same thing in another thread - great minds etc.

I would recommend just one Trinary though for a 12-on-12 - they're supposed to be arrogant and better all-round and would seek a duel, while the others would probably end up fighting each other just as much as the clanners.

[William McNab]

Rejarial Galatan, on 28 June 2012 - 04:53 PM, said:

And how do you explain the majority of innersphere forces having rare clan tech at the start of the invasion?

The majority of the IS did not have clan tech, as is shown by the fact that the Clan's basically ran roughshod over IS forces until the IS learned Clan tactics, and started to proactively engage Clan invasion units. Specific units allied with "Wolf's Dragoons" had access to advanced tech, which the Wolf Dragoons brought with them as a scout unit for the Clans. Further to that, lost tech from the Grey Death Legion caches were starting to be produced. And finally as the major invasion moved forward ... Comstar fielded advanced tech mechs which were actually old tech that was more advanced the 4th Succession war tech ... So ..... I don't believe that your initial statement is correct. :-)

With respect to the actual topic of the thread. The clan shouldn't be on par with IS units, they can blast the crap out of IS units. So how to balance. How about clans do not take salvage? Repair costs are higher? Clan invasions are "BID".
Actually "Bidding" units for Clan invasions could actually solve much of this issue. Not sure how much extra programming that would take but maybe it's a possibility.

Edited by William McNab, 28 June 2012 - 05:24 PM.

[Gravaar]

Maybe the DEVs will use the Battle Value (BV) system to balance up the fights
Sarna places the Madcat at 2252
The Atlas is 1557 and Hunchback is 851
Using BV every madcat should be facing an Atlas with backup

[RoyalWave]

Here is the problem

Canon:

Clan is much better in every way
but they have weird strategy and tactics

How this translates to video games

Video Game:

Clan mechs are better in every way
Their strategy and tactics are the same as IS.

Result:
Clan is just better

Trying to code in some zell rules, will just create people abusing those systems as best as possible..


Who is going to stick with inner sphere when a mad cat has 50% better (bv) than an atlas in fights. Not many people.

Making it a "premium" feature just brings in the concept of Pay 2 win extremely quickly and will not go over well to new players. "hey why is that mech so powerful?" oh he has premium account and bought clan mech slots. yeah no.

Clan has to be a balanced faction, tech, mech, etc wise. An atlas against a daishi needs to be 50/50 and based on pilot skill not because the canon said Daishi is better

Edited by RoyalWave, 28 June 2012 - 05:22 PM.

[Alexander Diaz]

I honestly think that once this game comes out, and people play with the IS tech, they're going to start "liking" the old IS chassis. Especially since this is IS vs IS. I mean, if it's missing, you don't miss it and you'll start thinking, "Man, 6 med lasers are vicious! That AC/20 packs a wallop!". A year of IS toys with slow improvement's in the Universe's tech is the way to go. More toys will come out. More people will take steps out of their comfort zones and discover new loves (in mechs) and it'll be cool.

And then the Clan's will come and mop the floor with us.

I really liked an earlier posters idea of having the initial invasion being either AI driven or Dev piloted/driven. Make it a special event. IS forces will have to hone their tactics, and keeping it a special even lets the devs control the experience. Traditional face-up is 3 lances of IS forces to 1 Clan lance.

Then, as the universe progresses in age, we'll start seeing some of this tech show up. Lostech emerges. Many years down the road some clans do eventually become part of the IS.

The real question is, How do we keep the balance for new players starting with, oh say, today's Dragon. Might have to have separate servers/game types that restrict to certain builds.

[Incunabulum]

Lipot, on 28 June 2012 - 05:13 PM, said:

Well I am not a fan of the Clans, I do not want to have them nerfed either. While the Clans are advance in many ways, their idea of honourable combat with one on one fighting makes them have a weakness to good old gang tactics. Something that will get a boost if the devs give the Inner Sphere pilots the C3 system developed by the Draconis Combine. While I am not a fan of House Kurita's politics or tactics, I can not fault their tech. A well rounded lance with a C3 system is able to easily change the tide of battle. Remember that the C3 allows target data sharing to the point that you use the closest friendly 'mech to your target to correct your targeting. So something that was just on the edge of your range and barely be able to hit is now treated as if it was in prime range. Even the Clans' targeting computer does not have that edge. And the tech is not Lostech. It will depend though if we do get a true command 'mech to work with in the future.

C3's easy to implement in TT but not so easy to make work right in a videogame, at least not without some really strong auto-aim implemented - though I would like to see this sort of thing, along with a lot of the more esoteric items (AP pods, grenades launchers, etc)

[RoyalWave]

Incunabulum, on 28 June 2012 - 05:20 PM, said:

C3's easy to implement in TT but not so easy to make work right in a videogame, at least not without some really strong auto-aim implemented - though I would like to see this sort of thing,

Love this idea.

At some point you have to say, the canon is nice, but fun gameplay is better. Hence, piloting a madcat is cool, the mech is iconic, but let's not have it walk over 2-3 IS mechs.

The canon says this side is imba.. might not be the best idea to copy that to a video game where the weaknesses are also removed or impossible to really implement/police (zell).

Edited by RoyalWave, 28 June 2012 - 05:26 PM.

[BFalcon]

grungnir, on 28 June 2012 - 05:12 PM, said:

its simple really. The Clan invasion becomes the Co-op vs AI that the devs said they wanted to introduce post launch, after the invasion (ie, 2 or 3 weeks after the patch that puts it in) clan tech becomes available in the mech bay. Lore reason is because of salvage/ reverse engineering. yeah make it a bit cumbersome on the C-bills to give people something to grind for and afterwards theres no need to 'balance' clan tech because its equally available to everyone. It'll be much better than trying to limit the tonnage on a clan team or try and force the clanners to play lone wolf style. Simplest solutions are usually the best.

Another option would be to make clan tech expensive for merc units to buy in, once it's available, but cheaper for the House units - but restricted to the higher-prestige units. This means that only the best mechwarriors would be able to get it (which is realistic). In order to reach a high prestige unit, you'll have needed to fufilled the entry requirements (the devs have already said so) so you'd not just be making it available to everyone (although all mercs could theoretically get it, under this system, they would be unwise to spend the money on it if they couldn't truly afford it). Random drops in the events could also help to add clan tech to their storehouses (eg double HS, etc) that could be used later in converting mechs.

[Brigs]

I tihnk they just need to wait for a bit before they come screaming out with clan mechs.

Once we get to know the game and how it all works we might be able to beat clan mechs with IS stuff. A lot of the maps are close range. That is where IS tech works the best and it help neget the range advantage that Clan tech general enjoys. Also the only truly proven way to be a dye in the wool Kerensky is back Clan mech is with team work. If you read any of the books or play any TT games you see time and again when IS mechs gang up on a clanner their chances to win go up conciderably that is how the game should be,

When they do add Clan mechs I hope they let you use them only so many times a day then they get locked out until the next day or such. That would help keep Technology jump kinda in check and let us play with it at the same time.

[BFalcon]

William McNab, on 28 June 2012 - 05:17 PM, said:

The majority of the IS did not have clan tech, as is shown by the fact that the Clan's basically ran roughshod over IS forces until the IS learned Clan tactics, and started to proactively engage Clan invasion units. Specific units allied with "Wolf's Dragoons" had access to advanced tech, which the Wolf Dragoons brought with them as a scout unit for the Clans. Further to that, lost tech from the Grey Death Legion caches were starting to be produced. And finally as the major invasion moved forward ... Comstar fielded advanced tech mechs which were actually old tech that was more advanced the 4th Succession war tech ... So ..... I don't believe that your initial statement is correct. :-)

With respect to the actual topic of the thread. The clan shouldn't be on par with IS units, they can blast the crap out of IS units. So how to balance. How about clans do not take salvage? Repair costs are higher? Clan invasions are "BID".
Actually "Bidding" units for Clan invasions could actually solve much of this issue. Not sure how much extra programming that would take but maybe it's a possibility.

This is why you should quote the post you're replying to, guys...

William: He's responding to another post, as you'd probably work out if you reread his post and a page before it.

[ScientificMethod]

Why does everyone think that player tactics can't be adjusted by the dev's? In MW4, how many of you thought about lance tactics or wanted to use a scout? The fact that this game has everyone suddenly thinking along the lines of information warfare proves in some small amount that how developers implement and reward things can modify player tactics.

If you want to play clan? Alright. Prepare to be outnumbered and possibly outweighed (you'll have your fancy expensive tech at least though). Then there's the whole reward aspect to things here. If you ignore zellbrigen, maybe you don't get credits (or whatever the clan equivalent would be since they don't use money) or experience for attacking multiple mechs. Heck, they could have unclan tactics cost loyalty points or credits.

RoyalWave, on 28 June 2012 - 05:19 PM, said:

Here is the problem

Canon:

Clan is much better in every way
but they have weird strategy and tactics

How this translates to video games

Video Game:

Clan mechs are better in every way
Their strategy and tactics are the same as IS.

Result:
Clan is just better

Trying to code in some zell rules, will just create people abusing those systems as best as possible..


Who is going to stick with inner sphere when a mad cat has 50% better (bv) than an atlas in fights. Not many people.

Making it a "premium" feature just brings in the concept of Pay 2 win extremely quickly and will not go over well to new players. "hey why is that mech so powerful?" oh he has premium account and bought clan mech slots. yeah no.

Clan has to be a balanced faction, tech, mech, etc wise. An atlas against a daishi needs to be 50/50 and based on pilot skill not because the canon said Daishi is better

Edited by ScientificMethod, 28 June 2012 - 05:28 PM.

[RoyalWave]

BFalcon, on 28 June 2012 - 05:24 PM, said:

Another option would be to make clan tech expensive for merc units to buy in, once it's available, but cheaper for the House units - but restricted to the higher-prestige units. This means that only the best mechwarriors would be able to get it (which is realistic). In order to reach a high prestige unit, you'll have needed to fufilled the entry requirements (the devs have already said so) so you'd not just be making it available to everyone (although all mercs could theoretically get it, under this system, they would be unwise to spend the money on it if they couldn't truly afford it). Random drops in the events could also help to add clan tech to their storehouses (eg double HS, etc) that could be used later in converting mechs.

...... this is the opposite of balance. Balance by "premium" is not balance. It's giving a select few, who already have more time played, even more advantaged over other people. also IS units all fielding clan tech because it's better is just bad. Parity is the only solution.

[BFalcon]

Brigs, on 28 June 2012 - 05:25 PM, said:

I tihnk they just need to wait for a bit before they come screaming out with clan mechs.

If they stick to their schedule, they'll be due in the Periphery around March next year. We should start to hear whispers about them around then.

[light487]

It's clear that they will need to have a new Beta just for the clans.. if they do add them at all..

I personally don't want them in there.. unless they are some kind of end game thing.. you've maxed everything out.. and now you want something fresh..

[RoyalWave]

Also some of you are thinking "ideally" and not with reality in mind.

Reality is, people will take the best possible thing and abuse it in the best possible way. Especially for stuff like planety battles or anything wtih meaning. Even if you do not, you will still play against these players all the time.

So yeah, you take a credit hit if you leg that jenner with your masakari, big deal, I just conquered a planet for my clan. Creating an overpower faction, and then saying by design it's overpowered and that's good. Is just the wrong idea for an actual real online video game. So yes, in canon books clan come out of tubes and destroy IS and are honorable people blah blah blah. In MWO that's going to be everyone who wants to win and plays to win, switching to clan, destroying your stuff in coordinated alpha strikes with ERPPC boats, and conquering your planets even if they have to get "premium" months or buy special stuff.

The idea that clan is "better" end of story, or associate some cbill / xp cost to it, is just not going to work in practice.

Edited by RoyalWave, 28 June 2012 - 05:34 PM.

[BFalcon]

RoyalWave, on 28 June 2012 - 05:28 PM, said:

...... this is the opposite of balance. Balance by "premium" is not balance. It's giving a select few, who already have more time played, even more advantaged over other people. also IS units all fielding clan tech because it's better is just bad. Parity is the only solution.

It is if you're using the in-game (not bought) credits. Also, it's realistic - the Houses are NOT going to dump valued tech to anyone who asks for it - in canon, there's Davion Heavy Guard unit, I believe, who are even issued captured clan mechs - so rare that it's actually mentioned in the books.

It also gives players something to work towards and not just get a free lunch. If you want something good, you should have to work hard to get it - not just have it handed to you.

Clan tech, as it is, is fine - let the devs sort it out, but I say that the salvage opportunities would be very restricted - House units would have it confiscated for research purposes and merc units would have a clause that gives their employers the rights to any interesting salvage - this is standard practice in the canon universe. It therefore makes sense not to allow widespread access to the tech.

I'm just firing ideas out for people to discuss, not trying to cripple the pre-established balance like you seem to be - how about coming up with a few more ideas?

[NeoThoR]

Lightdragon, on 28 June 2012 - 04:32 PM, said:

...or we could just not have clans, all the clans attract is people with god complexes, horrible roleplayers, and ignorant noobs that dont even bother to read up on the history of the bt universe

Or people like me who just don't care about the history...

And guess what? There are WAY more of ME than you

Edited by NeoThoR, 28 June 2012 - 05:36 PM.

[RoyalWave]

BFalcon, on 28 June 2012 - 05:34 PM, said:

It is if you're using the in-game (not bought) credits. Also, it's realistic - the Houses are NOT going to dump valued tech to anyone who asks for it - in canon, there's Davion Heavy Guard unit, I believe, who are even issued captured clan mechs - so rare that it's actually mentioned in the books.

It also gives players something to work towards and not just get a free lunch. If you want something good, you should have to work hard to get it - not just have it handed to you.

Clan tech, as it is, is fine - let the devs sort it out, but I say that the salvage opportunities would be very restricted - House units would have it confiscated for research purposes and merc units would have a clause that gives their employers the rights to any interesting salvage - this is standard practice in the canon universe. It therefore makes sense not to allow widespread access to the tech.

I'm just firing ideas out for people to discuss, not trying to cripple the pre-established balance like you seem to be - how about coming up with a few more ideas?

Because balance involves equal chance for both sides, minimizing RPG qualities like grinding for better gear. If I play 10000 hours, okay I might get some mech XP unlock bonuses which are minimal, 4% faster turning etc, but giving me a whole new class of mech (clan tech) that is just better by magnitudes over IS? That's the definition of imbalance. The Clans are the like, clear cut canon overpowered faction. Translating that to a video game, no matter what out of game drawbacks or grind or payments you attach, you still end up with an overpowered faction.

The problem is only solved by making IS mechs on par wtih clan mechs in power.

Listen I don't mind switching an alt to clan if they are overpowered, but I'd just rather not.

Edited by RoyalWave, 28 June 2012 - 05:39 PM.

[Alexander Diaz]

NeoThoR, on 28 June 2012 - 05:35 PM, said:

Or people like me who just don't care about the history...

And guess what? There are WAY more of ME than you

PFFFFFt. We already know the Devs are pretty committed to sticking as close to table top and lore as possible. You don't have to care but, if you're arguing an idea, you have to consider that.

[BFalcon]

NeoThoR, on 28 June 2012 - 05:35 PM, said:

Or people like me who just don't care about the history...

And guess what? There are WAY more of ME than you

If you don't care about Battletech, what attracts you to this game?

The biggest attraction for most is the history/storyline that enriches the background...

(Not trying to argue, just can't imagine that players that are attracted to the MW series actually care nothing for the setting.)