315 replies to this topic

[Fire for Effect]

10 to 12 does not hit it,

Example:

Clan side:

6 Mad Cat A 6 x 6330 = 37980 (6 x 75 tons)
2 Uller A 2 x 1939 = 3878 (2 x 30 tons)
2 Black Hawk A 2 x 3823 = 7646 (2 x 50 tons)

since the Mad Cat is probably the most well-loved Clan mech thats a good estimation. For comparision Daishi Primary 8901 Value 100 tons

Combined Clan Value: 49504

take note: note a single Assault Mech in the Clanner setup.



Inner Sphere:

4x Atlas AS7D 4 x 5371 = 21484 (4 x 100 tons)
4x Marauder MAD-3R 4 x 3556 = 14224 (4 x 75 tons)
2x Raven RVN-1X 2 x 1390 = 2790 (2 x 35 tons)
2x Hunchback HBK-4G 2 x 2334 = 4668 (2 x 50 tons)

combined IS value: 43166

comparision:
IS : 43166
Clan : 49504

So the IS has less that 90% combat potential of the Clans although Clans have 610 tons IS has 870 tons. the Clan force is also much more mobile than the IS Force, and all of the above are Omnis so that will also be an advantage that the IS cannot counter.

This Gap can close somewhat if and when advanced technology is more widespread, the IS Mechs above are more or less 3025 designs but in 3049 most Mechs are still without any advanced Tech also most of our Mechs will be without any real advance Tech changing Weapons from IS to pure Clan Weapons typically results in about 5% Combat potential increase, but IS weapons even advanced ones are inferior to pure Clan designs.... To make it even the force above would need another Marauder and an additional Hunchback or advanced Tech an Atlas AS-7K model with 2 Md pulse laser, XL Engine,2 ER Large laser, gauss rifle, AMS and CASE has t 5961 points but would still be far from the Clanners combat potential.

[phelancracken]

Sigh.



How about this:

5 Timber Wolf primes 5 x 5897 =29485
2 Nova As 2 x 3823 = 7646
1 Viper D 2791
2 Kit Fox As 2 x 1939 = 3878

Total is 43,800

That's with in 700 CV of the IS force. Now, one thing I will say is not too often is 6 or even 5 Timber Wolves going to be in a Binary. Expense is the main issue there.

As for mobility, yes, most of the clan force goes 5/8, Kit Foxes go 6/9 and the Viper goes 8/12/8. However, only the Novas have head capping weapons. Not to mention, the clan force dropped 35 tons to get the Viper. I could have increased the tech on the IS force to better able to balance too. Marauder 5Ds for example. Atlas 7K for another. Both mechs were available at the start of when this game is supposed to begin. I won't say widely, but available. Not to mention, when your trying to customize a mech, who knows what can happen.

Another thing, potential isn't the same as effectiveness. If the IS pilots are better, they most likely will win. However, running Hunchies against this force, waste of time. any self respecting player is going to take out AC/20s asap. Raven 3L is available before the clan invasion.

Several things we don't know:

1. How fast a mech once introduced becomes readily available.
2. How long before you can either refit or upgrade a standard mech to a 3050 or later tech mech.
3. What method the game is going to use to balance the sides. pilot gunnery from TT won't be used in this game due to us controlling the mechs.

[Hunson Abadeer]

phelancracken, on 05 July 2012 - 07:25 AM, said:

Sigh.



How about this:

5 Timber Wolf primes 5 x 5897 =29485
2 Nova As 2 x 3823 = 7646
1 Viper D 2791
2 Kit Fox As 2 x 1939 = 3878

Total is 43,800

That's with in 700 CV of the IS force. Now, one thing I will say is not too often is 6 or even 5 Timber Wolves going to be in a Binary. Expense is the main issue there.

As for mobility, yes, most of the clan force goes 5/8, Kit Foxes go 6/9 and the Viper goes 8/12/8. However, only the Novas have head capping weapons. Not to mention, the clan force dropped 35 tons to get the Viper. I could have increased the tech on the IS force to better able to balance too. Marauder 5Ds for example. Atlas 7K for another. Both mechs were available at the start of when this game is supposed to begin. I won't say widely, but available. Not to mention, when your trying to customize a mech, who knows what can happen.

Another thing, potential isn't the same as effectiveness. If the IS pilots are better, they most likely will win. However, running Hunchies against this force, waste of time. any self respecting player is going to take out AC/20s asap. Raven 3L is available before the clan invasion.

Several things we don't know:

1. How fast a mech once introduced becomes readily available.
2. How long before you can either refit or upgrade a standard mech to a 3050 or later tech mech.
3. What method the game is going to use to balance the sides. pilot gunnery from TT won't be used in this game due to us controlling the mechs.

If we are going to look at how to balance the game, we have to look at what would be possible rather than what we think could be likely. People will flock to their favorites and/or what is the most powerful. The Timber Wolf is the most popular Clan 'Mech because of MW2, which seems to have been the first entry into BattleTech for most Clanners. The Timber Wolf may not appear immediately next spring due to cost, but there would be an army of Clanners striving to earn enough to get one. The only check on that would be forcing someone to use scouts in the Binary. If 2 people are required to use Lights, we could still see 8 Timber Wolves in the future.

The Inner Sphere has a ceiling based on the available technology in 3050. Even the most "advanced" designs cannot compare to the Clans, so Inner Sphere units will be capped from the start. Clan units, however, will have a much, much higher ceiling. If a Binary can include 10 of the most powerful OmniMechs, it eventually will as people have the money to buy the better 'Mechs. If a Binary can include 8, it will. Most people will not kneecap themselves just to do it. Some people will certainly use a less powerful 'Mech when it is a personal favorite of theirs or what have you, but most will simply flock to the most powerful item available to them.

We also cannot hang these discussions on the notion that a good Inner Sphere team will be able to beat a bad Clan team. The point is that the two sides will likely average out to be about equal in skill level, and the Clans will hold all of the built-in advantages. A really good college football team could perhaps beat the Detroit Lions, if all of their players had food poisoning. Overall, however, that does not mean that you could craft a game with college teams playing the NFL teams because the average situation would be far different.

I see three possibilities.

First, use a Company-Star model without any other caps. This would fit with the lore, and the Clans would still have all of their advantages plus the ability to concentrate their fire, which would make them much more deadly.

Second, use a Company-Binary model while giving Inner Sphere pilots the ability to purchase artillery strikes, mine fields, and the like that will actually be able to do substantive damage to the Clanners. For example, the Long Tom Artillery Piece is 450,000 C-Bills and 10,000 C-Bills per ton of ammo. The fluff for the Long Tom says that it can fire approximately 1 ton of ammunition (5 rounds) every 8 seconds. Perhaps Inner Sphere players could "purchase" a Long Tom and then have to pay 10,000 C-Bills for a single barrage in a match. The Sniper would cost 300,000 and 6,000 per ton of ammo (10 rounds), and the Thumper would cost 187,500 and 4,500 per ton (20 rounds). If Inner Sphere players could call in an artillery barrage accurately, that could help offset some of the Clan advantages. If the Long Tom and Sniper were too powerful in practice, then it could be limited to just the Thumper.

Third, use a Company-Binary model and nerf Clantech to the point that it offers very little advantage, which totally guts the lore.

[phelancracken]

I will agree that the Timber Wolf is an extremely popular mech. However, I doubt that it's going to be available for a while. Probably a year or more, but, then again, I am not the Devs.

That being said, the Combat Values used haven't been used officially in some time. So if they use BV or BV2, things could change quite a bit. If they are doing a team on team, they would have to balance the two. Either by:

A. A set BV limit that teams can be at.
B. Balance off the lower BVed team.
C. Tonnage. This won't work well for various reasons.

Of the 3, I see option A as being realistic. Teams can min max to their style of play in a set BV range and know that their oponents are at the same BV. Works pretty well. Even with the clans, it can work.

As for the clan advantages, when you figure BV, that's negated to a large degree. Yes, they still have the weapons ranges, hit harder, but they have fewer mechs or much smaller mechs than the IS per match.

As for player skill, hey, it's a variable the game cannot factor. Sorry, don't even try and say it should. No game can factor for human players. They can make what's in the game balanced, but the human factor is and always will be a wild card.

[Hunson Abadeer]

phelancracken, on 05 July 2012 - 10:41 AM, said:

I will agree that the Timber Wolf is an extremely popular mech. However, I doubt that it's going to be available for a while. Probably a year or more, but, then again, I am not the Devs.

That being said, the Combat Values used haven't been used officially in some time. So if they use BV or BV2, things could change quite a bit. If they are doing a team on team, they would have to balance the two. Either by:

A. A set BV limit that teams can be at.
B. Balance off the lower BVed team.
C. Tonnage. This won't work well for various reasons.

Of the 3, I see option A as being realistic. Teams can min max to their style of play in a set BV range and know that their oponents are at the same BV. Works pretty well. Even with the clans, it can work.

As for the clan advantages, when you figure BV, that's negated to a large degree. Yes, they still have the weapons ranges, hit harder, but they have fewer mechs or much smaller mechs than the IS per match.

As for player skill, hey, it's a variable the game cannot factor. Sorry, don't even try and say it should. No game can factor for human players. They can make what's in the game balanced, but the human factor is and always will be a wild card.

First, I would assume that the Timber Wolf will be available once the Clans go "live" next spring. Clanners will have to earn their way to them, but the popularity of the design will mean that they are eventually seen constantly. The game has to be balanced in the long-term.

Second, I do not use CV for anything, and I am still trying to get used to BV2. I doubt that the game will rely on BV to balance teams, however, because that could bar people from using their 'Mechs much of the time. For example, let's say you enter a match, and you are the last person to formalize your choice. If everyone else went heavy, you may be limited to a little bug even though you never pilot a scout. I just do not think most people would be happy with being forced to use lighter and/or worse designs just to fit into a match. I think they are going to have to balance the Clans in an overall sense rather than trying to cap BV or tonnage. People will be working hard to get their favorite 'Mechs, and it will turn a lot of people off to never get to use their expensive 'Mechs.

Third, it is true that BV helps to offset the Clans because that is what the system was designed to do. Clan 'Mechs are much better across the board, so they cost much more in terms of BV. A person with an Adder Prime would have to go against an AS7-D in terms of BV. As I already said, however, I do not think that BV caps would work with what we have seen of this game and other F2P games. People will not work hard or pay for expensive items that they never get to use. I think it makes much more sense to balance the game based on the potential extremes and likely averages such as using the Company-Star model and/or providing Inner Sphere players with artillery, &c.

Finally, that was my point. A poorly performing Binary may lose to an excellent Company, but that does not mean that the Company-Binary model would make sense overall. The assumption should be that the skill level will average out across the board, so it becomes an issue of balancing the game mechanics. The Clans have a lot of advantages as designed, and I believe that those advantages should be kept. The downsides that were designed to check those advantages, however, should be kept as well.

[phelancracken]

The main problem with what your suggesting is this,

the game has to have a set limit on forces per match. Wether it's BV, BV2 or something else, we don't know what the Devs are using. However, if you wait to the last second to join a match, you run the risk of being rejected as too big or however the Devs want to work it. Now if you have a team come into a match, versus a bunch of individuals, that's going to be very interesting for the individuals. But it's something that happens in a lot of MMOs.

The Binary versus Company point, it's a start depending on how the BV or whatever the game uses to balance, works out. I stand by my point that you CANNOT factor the human part of the equation, that's always been and always will be a wild card. You can only balance what the game can control. You can't control human behavior. That being said, BV is a decent way to balance the mechs or other forces in the game. I won't say it's the best, and maybe the Devs have come up with another, hopefully better way but we don't know.

[Hunson Abadeer]

We are in agreement that you cannot account for the human element.

As for using BV to create balance, this game will play like a FPS, and I have never played a FPS that put caps on weapons as a way of balancing teams. It is expected that some weapons will be better than others within reason, so people are free to use what they want. That system is only turned on its ear because the Inner Sphere uses Inner Sphere tech and the Clans use Clantech, and the two are not equal. The devs have to balance both the average as well as the potential of the two sides, which is not simple.

I just do not think that limiting what people can use would be a good solution. If people want to use their shiny new Assault 'Mech, they should be able to do so. If someone prefers a Light 'Mech, they should be able to use that. I just do not believe that Clanners would accept being limited to Light 'Mechs to keep their BV low enough compared to Inner Sphere 'Mechs, fair or not. Why spend time and money trying to get your Timber Wolf, custom paint, and whatnot just to never be able to use it? The BV system was designed with the notion that each side was actually controlled by only one person. It may be a Binary, but those 10 'Mechs belong to one person that can find a way to balance their force. In this game, each individual will have their own style and desires, and I think too many people would be turned off by being told that they cannot use their favorite 'Mech.

I think the best options are either to give both sides largely a freehand in a Company-Star model, or to give them both a freehand in a Company-Binary model where the Inner Sphere has access to bonus items that the Clanners cannot use (artillery, for example). Personally, I prefer the second model as long as the interface for deploying artillery, minefields, &c. allowed such items to be used in a meaningful way. For example, artillery would not be useful if it took so long to arrive that it never hit anything.

[phelancracken]

Final thought,

In TT, the clans were NOT limited to zell, they were NOT disallowed from gangfiring, None of those are found in any core tournament rules from 1990 till today. Zell is a role play. Also, they negated the clans range advantages by this way. Play a company on binary battle on 2 map sheets. You are within weapons range and firing terrain permitting by both sides by 1 to 3 turns, both IS and clan. The assuming bad terrain for the 3 turns. 2 maps laid side by side is 17 hexes long and 31 hexes wide. Played that and it's gets interesting when you can close to your effective range that fast.

I disagree on another thing on the BV. I have played games where everyone has a set amount of BV per person and then we choose sides after the fact. 4 to 6 players per side. That does work as well.

[Hunson Abadeer]

phelancracken, on 05 July 2012 - 12:25 PM, said:

Final thought,

In TT, the clans were NOT limited to zell, they were NOT disallowed from gangfiring, None of those are found in any core tournament rules from 1990 till today. Zell is a role play. Also, they negated the clans range advantages by this way. Play a company on binary battle on 2 map sheets. You are within weapons range and firing terrain permitting by both sides by 1 to 3 turns, both IS and clan. The assuming bad terrain for the 3 turns. 2 maps laid side by side is 17 hexes long and 31 hexes wide. Played that and it's gets interesting when you can close to your effective range that fast.

I disagree on another thing on the BV. I have played games where everyone has a set amount of BV per person and then we choose sides after the fact. 4 to 6 players per side. That does work as well.

The checks on Clanners have ALWAYS involved the fluff. The 3050 Technical Readout stated:

"Tactically, the Clans fight much differently from the armies of the Inner Sphere. Their attacks are direct, with little deception. Theirs is a strategy born from the confidence of superior equipment. Using less than all the forces available is a concept foreign to the Successor States, through the Draconis Combine's tradition of honor comes the closet in practice.

"This also manifests itself differently on the battlefield. The long-accepted practice of concentrating fire on a single enemy 'Mech appears to be unknown to the Clans. Each Clan warrior selects his own target, and it appears to be dishonorable to allow another warrior to help in a kill" (pp. 7).

FASA intended for the Clans to be checked from the beginning (1990). The concept was further revised in Invading Clans (1995), which defined "zellbrigen" as "the body of rules used to regulate and ritualize duels. Zellbrigen means that combatants engage in one-on-one duels, even if both sides have many warriors. Those not immediately challenged are honor-bound to stay out of the battle until an opponent is free (meaning he has defeated his enemy). To attack an enemy already engaged with an opponent is a major breach of Clan honor, usually resulting in at least loss of rank" (pp. 149). The concept was further revised in Field Manual: Crusader Clans (1998) and Field Manual: Warden Clans (1999).

The combat value system was introduced in the Tactical Handbook (1994), and it became the battle value system in Maximum Tech (1997), which was revised in the Master Rules (1998). Those systems served to reinforce what had already been introduced for the Clans: namely, bidding their forces down and thus not using all available forces so as to make things more fair. Prior to the various additions and revisions of the lore, I do not know a single player that would have tolerated a munchkin using the Clans while ignoring everything that the lore said about them early in the invasion.

[phelancracken]

Sigh,

quote in the core, tournament rules where zell is used. It's found in supplemental guides as optional rules. It's a role play rule that has not been used on normal tournament rules since 1990. As for zell, might want to read the Total Warfare rules on that before commenting on it farther. It's optional in Total Warfare. In the clans source books it was used depending on the clan either strictly, liberally, or opportunistically. Yes, I said opportunistically. Depending on the clan. And it depended on after maybe one campaign or 2, if the clanners would even give zell. If they suspected a trap, THEY DO NOT HAVE TO FOLLOW ZELL! Pg 273-275 in Total Warfare. It's a role playing rule not a core. This arguement was raised several weeks ago. Zell won't work by forcing players to follow it. Encourage, sure. Force, no.

[Rejarial Galatan]

this is what is truth. the clans are MEANT to be nasty. the tech? same thing. What people seem to forget is that, the Clans did not lose ANY technology after they left the IS. The IS went on to have succession war after succession war only to lose the technology as they went. This made them have to basically start over. The IS also is not a warrior society. The Clans? Warrior Society. No succession wars, no lost technology, years to improve warriors and the skills they have, years to improve the technology. Simply put, the clans cannot be reduced in power. at all.

[Capt Cole 117]

Dont nerf the clans its ther jobs to be big and scary, like the flood in halo or the reapers in mass deffect. In the lore clans are balanced because there are so few of them because their elite warriors.

[phelancracken]

Here, Here.

Game mechanics came first people, then the fluff and lore to go along with it. Yes, the clans were a warrior society, they had better gunner pilots in general. I love it when people who play clans and IS the IS players go with 4/5 gunner pilots. That's green pilots for clan. You look in BMRr that's the fact page 15 in 3 gunner 4 pilot is normal clan versus 4/5. Lot if IS players didn't like that. I can find it in the Battletech Compendium page 11 same thing.

I played at the 4/5 skill level quite a bit with full pointed clan mechs. Never worried about it. Now, considering the BV system, and having played quite a few scenarios trying to balance, I know unless it says both are the same in the rules, I make adjustments.

[Alaric Wolf Kerensky]

Lightdragon, on 28 June 2012 - 04:32 PM, said:

...or we could just not have clans, all the clans attract is people with god complexes, horrible roleplayers, and ignorant noobs that dont even bother to read up on the history of the bt universe

Because of course Inner Sphere players are all humble, perfect roleplayers, and highly intelligent masters that have an encyclopedic knowledge of all thing BattleTech.

You may not like the Clans, but I would play them even if they made IS 'Mechs more powerful than a Clan 'Mech. I do not like the Sphere. I do not like Capellans, Lyrans, ComStar, any of them. I am Wolf. And there are many players like me, would you deny them access to their favorite factions simply because you do not like having the Clans around? You sound like the ignorant one to me.

[Targetloc]

Another important point people are forgetting is the Command Tree upgrades. Two of the options are for artillery strikes and focused air strikes.

The clans probably won't have access to these because it goes against their combat doctrine. Clan artillery or fire support are very rare exceptions.


Depending how powerful those options are, or what other 'extras' are available to each side it's not just a matter of mech-to-mech balance.

[Rejarial Galatan]

I am with Alaric Wolf Kerensky. I am from Wolf Beta Galaxy, and I as well will play Clan when they become available. You do not see myself or my fellow Wolves decrying the Innersphere and saying you cannot play it because I do not like the Innersphere being around. You may not like us, you may despise us, but we are coming. We are necessity.

[Hunson Abadeer]

phelancracken, on 05 July 2012 - 08:51 PM, said:

Sigh,

quote in the core, tournament rules where zell is used. It's found in supplemental guides as optional rules. It's a role play rule that has not been used on normal tournament rules since 1990. As for zell, might want to read the Total Warfare rules on that before commenting on it farther. It's optional in Total Warfare. In the clans source books it was used depending on the clan either strictly, liberally, or opportunistically. Yes, I said opportunistically. Depending on the clan. And it depended on after maybe one campaign or 2, if the clanners would even give zell. If they suspected a trap, THEY DO NOT HAVE TO FOLLOW ZELL! Pg 273-275 in Total Warfare. It's a role playing rule not a core. This arguement was raised several weeks ago. Zell won't work by forcing players to follow it. Encourage, sure. Force, no.

FASA put the lore in place in 1990 when the Clans were much more overpowered relative to the Inner Sphere. By the time it was revised in 1994, TRO 3055 (1992) and the Tukayyid scenario pack (1994) were already out (Inner Sphere had better 'Mechs and the invasion had been defeated). By the time it was revised again in 1998-1999, TRO 3058 (1995) was already out. You cannot use ex post facto revisions and developments as an excuse for ignoring everything that was in place surrounding the Clans during the invasion period. For example, the Tukayyid scenario book says, "Most Clan MechWarriors continued to abide by Clan conventions of battle, refusing to lower themselves to their enemy's level by breaking their own code of honor" (pp. 7). It goes on to offer Clan honor information in scenarios for every Clan on Tukayyid except for Clan Wolf, which abandoned the entire honor code. Clans Nova Cat and Diamond Shark abided by the entire code of honor, Ghost Bear and Steel Viper strictly adhered to it until abandoning it later in an effort to turn the tide, Smoke Jaguar abandoned the code to save face after Luthien, and Jade Falcon abandoned it so as to keep up with Wolf (pp. 8).

Nothing you can offer changes the nature of the Clans in the source material while the actual invasion was being written and played. Books that came out well after the fact, which revised some things, have to be taken as revisions in the context of other material that had come out. You cannot treat some things like they existed in a vacuum because they most assuredly did not. As FASA gave the Inner Sphere better 'Mechs, they revised the Clans to keep things more balanced. To use your example of Total Warfare (2006), it specifically gives an example of a Clanner being killed because the Inner Sphere 'Mechs are abusing his own honor code and thus the honor code is optional. Of course, that is EXACTLY what took place during the invasion that helped the Inner Sphere win, and FASA stipulated that most Clanners had continued to abide by their own code of honor despite the Inner Sphere using it against them. The difference is that the honor code was a clear balancing element originally, but it had been outpaced by the revisions and additions to the Inner Sphere in subsequent material.

The BattleTech Compendium (1990) had no rules about Clan behavior because it had no rules about behavior, period. It actually left it up to whatever players agreed to or whatever a scenario pack said (pp. 11). BattleTech Compendium: Rules of Warfare (1994) said the same thing (pp. 14). There was no need to get complicated with BattleTech Manual: Rules of Warfare (1987) because the Clans did not exist yet. What does this prove? FASA provided the source material, and their source material said that the Clans by and large abided by their honor code for YEARS after first witnessing the Inner Sphere using it against them. Even on Tukayyid most of the Clans abided by it until they were on the verge of losing. The core rules did not include any means of balancing the Clans except for the scenarios that FASA offered, which balanced the Clans by introducing the customs that kept them from overwhelming people. The customs were only revised LATER after FASA had updated the Inner Sphere's technology, which meant the Clans needed to be balanced against the new items rather than the old. You can even look at MechWarrior: The BattleTech Role Playing Game, 2nd ed. (1991), which already stipulated the Clans' loss and subsequent effort to "modify their ritualized form of warfare in order to counteract new Inner Sphere tactics" (pp. 138).

[Hunson Abadeer]

Rejarial Galatan, on 05 July 2012 - 09:13 PM, said:

I am with Alaric Wolf Kerensky. I am from Wolf Beta Galaxy, and I as well will play Clan when they become available. You do not see myself or my fellow Wolves decrying the Innersphere and saying you cannot play it because I do not like the Innersphere being around. You may not like us, you may despise us, but we are coming. We are necessity.

The Clans should be put into the game just as they were designed, but they are not a necessity. BattleTech was doing just fine without the Clans. They were introduced in 1990 and immediately lost. The Wolf Clan Sourcebook (1991), the Jade Falcon Sourcebook (1992), and Invading Clans (1994) provided some more information about the loss, but the Clans really took off after MechWarrior 2 (1995). You then ended up with Field Manual: Crusader Clans (1998), Field Manual: Warden Clans (1999), and The Clans: Warriors of Kerensky (1999).

The Clans may seem like a big deal to some as there was ample information about them 13 years ago, but there are plenty of people that still remember the days before the coming of the Clans. I am all for this game doing the Clans right because they chose to set it in the Invasion Era, but they could have placed it in the Fourth Succession War without me shedding a single tear over it. If there is no Inner Sphere, there is no BattleTech. The Inner Sphere is a necessity. Clans are a luxury.

[phelancracken]

Hunson Abadeer, on 05 July 2012 - 11:05 PM, said:

The Clans may seem like a big deal to some as there was ample information about them 13 years ago, but there are plenty of people that still remember the days before the coming of the Clans. I am all for this game doing the Clans right because they chose to set it in the Invasion Era, but they could have placed it in the Fourth Succession War without me shedding a single tear over it. If there is no Inner Sphere, there is no BattleTech. The Inner Sphere is a necessity. Clans are a luxury.

Ah, an IS player that would rather not see clans be around. As I had figured out and now confirm. If the game was doing so well why were the clans introduced? Hmm?

[phelancracken]

Hunson Abadeer, on 05 July 2012 - 10:49 PM, said:

FASA put the lore in place in 1990 when the Clans were much more overpowered relative to the Inner Sphere. By the time it was revised in 1994, TRO 3055 (1992) and the Tukayyid scenario pack (1994) were already out (Inner Sphere had better 'Mechs and the invasion had been defeated). By the time it was revised again in 1998-1999, TRO 3058 (1995) was already out. You cannot use ex post facto revisions and developments as an excuse for ignoring everything that was in place surrounding the Clans during the invasion period. For example, the Tukayyid scenario book says, "Most Clan MechWarriors continued to abide by Clan conventions of battle, refusing to lower themselves to their enemy's level by breaking their own code of honor" (pp. 7). It goes on to offer Clan honor information in scenarios for every Clan on Tukayyid except for Clan Wolf, which abandoned the entire honor code. Clans Nova Cat and Diamond Shark abided by the entire code of honor, Ghost Bear and Steel Viper strictly adhered to it until abandoning it later in an effort to turn the tide, Smoke Jaguar abandoned the code to save face after Luthien, and Jade Falcon abandoned it so as to keep up with Wolf (pp. 8).

Nothing you can offer changes the nature of the Clans in the source material while the actual invasion was being written and played. Books that came out well after the fact, which revised some things, have to be taken as revisions in the context of other material that had come out. You cannot treat some things like they existed in a vacuum because they most assuredly did not. As FASA gave the Inner Sphere better 'Mechs, they revised the Clans to keep things more balanced. To use your example of Total Warfare (2006), it specifically gives an example of a Clanner being killed because the Inner Sphere 'Mechs are abusing his own honor code and thus the honor code is optional. Of course, that is EXACTLY what took place during the invasion that helped the Inner Sphere win, and FASA stipulated that most Clanners had continued to abide by their own code of honor despite the Inner Sphere using it against them. The difference is that the honor code was a clear balancing element originally, but it had been outpaced by the revisions and additions to the Inner Sphere in subsequent material.

The BattleTech Compendium (1990) had no rules about Clan behavior because it had no rules about behavior, period. It actually left it up to whatever players agreed to or whatever a scenario pack said (pp. 11). BattleTech Compendium: Rules of Warfare (1994) said the same thing (pp. 14). There was no need to get complicated with BattleTech Manual: Rules of Warfare (1987) because the Clans did not exist yet. What does this prove? FASA provided the source material, and their source material said that the Clans by and large abided by their honor code for YEARS after first witnessing the Inner Sphere using it against them. Even on Tukayyid most of the Clans abided by it until they were on the verge of losing. The core rules did not include any means of balancing the Clans except for the scenarios that FASA offered, which balanced the Clans by introducing the customs that kept them from overwhelming people. The customs were only revised LATER after FASA had updated the Inner Sphere's technology, which meant the Clans needed to be balanced against the new items rather than the old. You can even look at MechWarrior: The BattleTech Role Playing Game, 2nd ed. (1991), which already stipulated the Clans' loss and subsequent effort to "modify their ritualized form of warfare in order to counteract new Inner Sphere tactics" (pp. 138).

Page 8 of Total Warfare sums it up. This rules set supercedes all previous rulesets INCLUDING any scenario packs. If any rule conflicts with a Total Warfare rule, the Total Warfare rule overrides. Check mate. You lost. if your playing current tournament rules, everything BEFORE Total Warfare is null and void. This isn't a loophole, but Mechwarrior isn't battletech. But battletech can be used as Mechwarrior. Mechwarrior is a role playing system. It's not the same.

Also, nothing you offer says a player has to follow lore. It's not in the main rules and up to the player. Check mate. Also, the wolves had info that they used that alot of clans disregarded about IS behavour. You can't justify a roleplay element into the game when it's not in core rules, and you just want an unfair advantage. I can also say in Total Warfare that if zell is used, clans should have either better skill sets or larger forces. How about that?


Finally, considering that the core rules sets are Tournament legal rules, what does that say about the source books? They are OPTIONAL rules. Read, not enforceable and both sides have to agree. Meaning, get used to the fact that clans can gang fire if they wish to. They already consider IS barbarians which is just one step above pirates and bandits. They don't give zell to them.

Also, nothing you offer says a player has to follow lore. It's not in the main rules and up to the player. Check mate. Also, the wolves had info that they used that alot of clans disregarded about IS behavour. Which is why they didn't follow zell. IS was considered dishonorable.

Edited by phelancracken, 06 July 2012 - 09:34 AM.