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How Cw Become A Horrible Experience For Players


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#361 PappySmurf

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Posted 18 February 2015 - 10:57 AM

Ueber{I'm not sure I understand what you are getting at here... I've played both (actually I played MW2 back in the 90's as well) and MWO is clearly superior in almost every way to MW4 with the exception of content. (Destructible buildings, collisions and vehicles) Mechanics and netcode-wise I have no idea how you can put MW4 above that of MWO. It just doesn't make sense. MWO is very solid and you feel each stomp and each weapon fire/hit. }

And you are right to some degree Ueber but there was a lot more to MechWarrior games than just the mechs graphics animations etc.

When I booted up my PC MechWarrior games I could find varied game modes and leagues to play for fun or competitively 1v1-12v12 matches. I could set and chat with wonderful players from all over the world in unique conversations about MechWarrior or anything. Competition was excellent in 1v1-12v12 Solaris league matches or huge planetary leagues like BTU-MWL-NBT.

There was just so much more to MechWarrior than grinding for a mech modules and what else? more of the same.Many tried to help PGI do a 360 and make MW:0 into a true MechWarrior game but it did not happen and became a shallow FPS in mech skins with very limited content and fun.

CW-faction warfare for MW:0 is a shallow attempt to regain a once vibrant creative community that the MechWarrior IP had and the devs are still not listening.

Posted Image

P.S plus the overall fun experience playing with family and friends playing MechWarrior4 far outshines all the MW:0 bling.
The Msn Gamming Zone was the best MechWarrior Experience there ever was.

Edited by PappySmurf, 18 February 2015 - 11:06 AM.


#362 Ax2Grind

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Posted 18 February 2015 - 11:38 AM

View PostMirkk Defwode, on 18 February 2015 - 09:10 AM, said:

Maybe it was luck, or maybe it was just the right mix of players at the right time.


This still happens with MWO and in CW. Pugs from all corners of the sphere have beat pre-mades, and casual teams have beat more competitive and higher ranked teams. And I would say it has to do with both of those attributes above.

The choice some folks make, that they are beaten before the first shot is even fired, is a poor one. It's purely physiological. It's just like the logic-less arguments about battles not meaning anything before the ceasefires. People believe these things and then they become true...but the reality is that every battle ever fought counts, and no game is lost before the end screen comes up. It seems people hate losing so much that they love to make up reasons why it was "unfair" they lost...so now we have three separate ceasefires (which on an international level is great as each timezone now owns their successes, but in terms of debunking the idea that ever battle counts, folks continue to insist that only the last hour is meaningful). With enough qq'ing we saw the Thunderbolt 9S nerfed...because it was clearly a threat to the entire fabric of CW...even though it was just being spammed because of it's usefulness for a particular game-mode and the 5SS is far more powerful of a mech.

There are far more useful things PGI could be fixing for MWO and CW, but our community certainly seems to make a huge fuss about demanding our games be "fair"...which in almost all cases means making sure I win even if I am not a skilled player, not willing to run a decent mech build (doesn't have to be Meta, just doesn't have to be bad), don't know the map or the game mode, and choose not to drop with other players...not even a true Pick Up Group, much less form a squad to drop with regularly to play a team game. I have played this game since closed Beta. Every time I have lost I made poor choices or faced someone better who made better choices...but it has never been because it wasn't "fair".

#363 Mirkk Defwode

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Posted 18 February 2015 - 12:43 PM

View PostAx2Grind, on 18 February 2015 - 11:38 AM, said:


This still happens with MWO and in CW. Pugs from all corners of the sphere have beat pre-mades, and casual teams have beat more competitive and higher ranked teams. And I would say it has to do with both of those attributes above.

The choice some folks make, that they are beaten before the first shot is even fired, is a poor one. It's purely physiological. It's just like the logic-less arguments about battles not meaning anything before the ceasefires. People believe these things and then they become true...but the reality is that every battle ever fought counts, and no game is lost before the end screen comes up. It seems people hate losing so much that they love to make up reasons why it was "unfair" they lost...so now we have three separate ceasefires (which on an international level is great as each timezone now owns their successes, but in terms of debunking the idea that ever battle counts, folks continue to insist that only the last hour is meaningful). With enough qq'ing we saw the Thunderbolt 9S nerfed...because it was clearly a threat to the entire fabric of CW...even though it was just being spammed because of it's usefulness for a particular game-mode and the 5SS is far more powerful of a mech.

There are far more useful things PGI could be fixing for MWO and CW, but our community certainly seems to make a huge fuss about demanding our games be "fair"...which in almost all cases means making sure I win even if I am not a skilled player, not willing to run a decent mech build (doesn't have to be Meta, just doesn't have to be bad), don't know the map or the game mode, and choose not to drop with other players...not even a true Pick Up Group, much less form a squad to drop with regularly to play a team game. I have played this game since closed Beta. Every time I have lost I made poor choices or faced someone better who made better choices...but it has never been because it wasn't "fair".


I don't doubt that it happens, it's more about a choice in the matter. With the hosted server system in MW4 you would see what players are there prior to joining up and taking a team. And people were concerned with if others were having fun or not. Play a series of games and stacked team continuously stomped? Switch up the teams for a bit and try to balance it out for a few rounds so it isn't constantly a losing streak. The chat and conversations were often jovial between games and encouraging words were changed or tips/tricks. There was a sense of community because you ended up with specific servers you liked going to or earned familiarity with other players within the title. This allowed for a lot more depth in the experience.

And I agree there are a lot of things PGI should be focusing on remedying before we all continue to cry foul for Community Warfare...at the same time we shouldn't have been pitched a feature at the inception of this title and told it's right around the corner for 2 years...

Mistakes have been made. There is a lot of leeway that's been given. If people are giving valuable feedback either qualitative or quantitative in nature I encourage it. I've been trying to do that for awhile. But calling people out for wanting a balanced game just seems cruel. I'd like to see the metrics since CW came out of W/L ratio total, W/L ISvsClan, W/L matrix of factions. These are all metrics and datasets that should be being tracked for both dated time periods and for builds. At least I'd hope they're bring tracked.

All of the qualitative feedback people have provided that many call 'whining' is valuable in the sense that there are upset folks who feel slighted. The hard numbers behind that can be looked at to see if there is merit to the complaint.

#364 Ax2Grind

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Posted 18 February 2015 - 03:43 PM

View PostMirkk Defwode, on 18 February 2015 - 12:43 PM, said:


But calling people out for wanting a balanced game just seems cruel. I'd like to see the metrics since CW came out of W/L ratio total, W/L ISvsClan, W/L matrix of factions. These are all metrics and datasets that should be being tracked for both dated time periods and for builds. At least I'd hope they're bring tracked.

All of the qualitative feedback people have provided that many call 'whining' is valuable in the sense that there are upset folks who feel slighted. The hard numbers behind that can be looked at to see if there is merit to the complaint.


While I agree that wanting balanced game mechanics is good, and I also agree that all data can be good data, most of the complaints that concern fairness in MWO have nothing to do with balance...and instead tend to be derived from folks losing, feeling bad about it, and demanding a different game in which they don't lose. That is a far cry from balance. Is it really cruel to ask that players take responsibility for their play style? I don't think so. We can all choose from the same mechs, the same configurations, and we all get put through the same random map generator. TS is even an option now for those too lazy to install it on their own.

Great description of the old MW4 servers. For some reason gaming in general seemed...different back then. I don't recall nearly the same amount of online trolling and poison that seems to bubble up from every forum these days. I must just be getting old.

#365 MechWarrior5152251

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Posted 18 February 2015 - 04:15 PM

Now what will the pathetic clanbabies blame for their losses now that the TDR has been nerfed? They will never ever look at their own skill level as the cause of their pathetic scores.

#366 Mirkk Defwode

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Posted 18 February 2015 - 05:56 PM

View PostAx2Grind, on 18 February 2015 - 03:43 PM, said:


While I agree that wanting balanced game mechanics is good, and I also agree that all data can be good data, most of the complaints that concern fairness in MWO have nothing to do with balance...and instead tend to be derived from folks losing, feeling bad about it, and demanding a different game in which they don't lose. That is a far cry from balance. Is it really cruel to ask that players take responsibility for their play style? I don't think so. We can all choose from the same mechs, the same configurations, and we all get put through the same random map generator. TS is even an option now for those too lazy to install it on their own.

Great description of the old MW4 servers. For some reason gaming in general seemed...different back then. I don't recall nearly the same amount of online trolling and poison that seems to bubble up from every forum these days. I must just be getting old.


I'd hope that PGI takes that from much of this qualitative feedback is that their overall design mechanic isn't very balanced and leads to un-fun gameplay experiences. That's just disregarding the matchmaking issues and the stomps in general. It's a goal to get it to be fun, but I'm still of the opinion it launched too early and seeing it as a vertical slice is more demoralizing to this community. It's funny that it was launched too early when it was a pitched point of sale initially. Cause two years could be an entire development cycle for a AAA title.

And hopefully some of the new social features will change a few peoples play styles. Though I think some of the play style complaints also come from just the design mechanics for the weapons systems and the constraints created by the map design. I personally feel all the maps are rather claustrophobic and restricted. But it was that case even with the 8 players on the maps designed for 8 people.

I also wouldn't say people were too lazy to pick up teamspeak and use it. I just haven't ever seen another teamspeak server I want to go use. I run my own and we use that when playing with friends, but I don't feel the need to seek-out someone elses server for using that when I'll play with them for all of 4-15 minutes then end up with a different group. Albeit thats when I'm playing entirely alone, which some nights I just need to do that to blow off steam.

Though a general rule of thumb I have for all games, if there is a mechanic that feels frustrating and causes you more grief than joy to play - it's a bug. The designs for UI and mechanics should feel fluid and just be a means to an end. The thing that should frustrate you, in a good way, is the other players and matching up skill. Not having to wait 20 minutes to get into a game, not a game ending in 3 minutes because of the game mode design, Not trying to figure out what you equipped on something a long while back, or customizing that particular component (mech in this case), Not navigating a skill tree or swapping different setups. All of these things fall back on PGI on their designers to address, and at some point I've seen someone else complain, whine, or discuss these very issues.

I agree there is a skill gap in there, and people playing, learning, and practicing helps change that dynamic but everytime someone complains about something and get a negative response back versus further inquiry just makes me a little sad. It's sad to see communities go toxic and just not seem to care about their fellow players.

Thank you for the appreciation of my description of Mech4. Really that's as I experienced it, and from that same position I played in the NBT, went through almost every unit type you could be in that from being a Periphery, Pirate and House. Made some great friends, many of which I'm still friends with today despite stopping being part of the NBT in 2005.

#367 Chagatay

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Posted 18 February 2015 - 07:43 PM

View PostMechWarrior5152251, on 18 February 2015 - 04:15 PM, said:

Now what will the pathetic clanbabies blame for their losses now that the TDR has been nerfed? They will never ever look at their own skill level as the cause of their pathetic scores.


If by nerfed, you mean buffed considerably.....

Sure, it doesn't have insane heat reduction anymore 25% versus 50%. But considering that it got a huge boost in PPC velocity like every other PPC mech on the IS side.

Why they don't just go back to the old meta and just boost PPCs across the board I don't know*? They seem to be creeping back towards it (but only for IS).


*Oh I know.....trust me.....I know....

#368 DaFrog

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Posted 18 February 2015 - 08:47 PM

Well, here is the worst CW experience ever. Wipe out 48 to 5 by a clan.
Got zerged 4 times by clans, longest game 7.45 minutes.
And then got destroyed by JFP and their hacks on 3 occasions.

CW beta is sooooooooo wonderful, let me get my credit card and order the get me the f out of here package.

#369 RG Notch

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Posted 19 February 2015 - 06:56 PM

Russ just confirmed that solo queue CW is never going to happen in Town Hall. So move on to other ways to make it better.

#370 DaFrog

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Posted 19 February 2015 - 09:58 PM

View PostRG Notch, on 19 February 2015 - 06:56 PM, said:

Russ just confirmed that solo queue CW is never going to happen in Town Hall. So move on to other ways to make it better.

Never is a big word. He might have to answer to the share holders if the revenu stop coming in because of that decision.

#371 Ax2Grind

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Posted 19 February 2015 - 10:30 PM

View PostDaFrog, on 19 February 2015 - 09:58 PM, said:

Never is a big word. He might have to answer to the share holders if the revenu stop coming in because of that decision.


Let's face facts...it may be a possibility down the road but it's not going to be a priority. Never is just not a word I trust in the hands of PGI.

The devs want to keep this part of the game focused on team play, even if it's small teams (4v4). You don't have to join a unit to be apart of team play. I think that's a very reasonable way to design CW.

#372 Alexander Steel

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Posted 19 February 2015 - 10:37 PM

View PostDaFrog, on 19 February 2015 - 09:58 PM, said:


Never is a big word. He might have to answer to the share holders if the revenu stop coming in because of that decision.


Do you know what else was never going to happen? 3rd person mode. "Never" just means "This is how we feel right now at this moment, if the money says no you on the issue we will change our minds."

Which is the right attitude to take, never let stubbornness get in the way of doing the right thing.

#373 wanderer

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Posted 19 February 2015 - 10:43 PM

As noted above, but we're seeing 4v4 "Scouting" modes for CW. That'll mean what it says- up to a lance-sized team, but that's a heck of a lot less cringe-inducing than 12 PUGs vs 12 in a unit.

#374 Jon Gotham

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Posted 20 February 2015 - 04:33 AM

All I know is that to me


You look like you're lots of fun


Open up your loving arms


[

Watch out, here I come


You spin me right round, baby


Right round like a record, baby


Right round round round


Sound familiar?
I see the same "points" hammered into over and over and over. When is this going to STOP? Just when does this special snowflake crusade end?
There are so many units in this game, just crying out for people like you guys to join up. Hop on a TS say "hi guys" and make some friends. I've done that in every single MMO I have ever played and never regretted it.
Most of these units are not "l33t" or "pr0" or whatever cack gets pushed around, many of them are simply groups of friends that play together, groups of friends that would like to add YOU to their ranks.
If you deliberately segregate yourself due to an attitude, or whatever the problem is with YOU-not any premade. Why not try reaching out to people instead of stoically lone wolfing it, and make some of those aforementioned friends and profit?

The world is your oyster son, the man said to his son-the only thing stopping you....is YOU.

#375 Bigbacon

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Posted 20 February 2015 - 05:31 AM

View PostPappySmurf, on 18 February 2015 - 10:38 AM, said:

Mirkk {Ah back in the days of Mech4 I remember going into hosted servers when the intent to take on "stacked" teams. They were doing their warm ups and I just wanted practice in general.}

MechWarrior4 was billed as the worst of the MechWarrior IP series but in fact it was the best in many ways.Mechwarrior2 was almost pure simulation and cannon and great PVE storylines and expansions but lacked graphic and sound quality of mechwarrior3 or mechwarrior4. Mechwarrior3 was a mix of MW2 and what MW4 would become great game and expansions but terrible net code.

The Devs were told a lie about the MSN gamming zone and in-game servers for Mechwarrior4 by all parties involved in consultation of a new MechWarrior game that became MWO. MechWarrior4 was great far better than my MWO experience has ever been I can only assume the devs were Part of Mektek or NBT because MWO resembles the NHUA=(NO HEAT UNLIMITED AMMO) games played on the Mektek servers.

Most players hated NHUA and left MechWarrior4 because this game mode was so idiotic and the remaining players were overall toxic and did not represent the MechWarrior community by and large. MechWarrior4 was so diverse fun and entertaining with 15+ game modes hundreds of maps many varied leagues it was the bomb.

MW:0 is overall a very limited shallow experience compared to MechWarrio2-3-4 and expansions I can see why so many new players uninstall and never return.




Most players who try and leave most likely have never played MW2,3,4 so they wouldn't know if it is shallow or not.

the reason people who try it and leave is because they don't find it fun for whatever reason. The learning curve is high, the trial mechs often can't compete with anything else. If you are new and get rolled a lot during your first many rounds, you won't come back. If you don't get a kill during those rounds you won't come back.

Some of it PGI can't really fix but some of it they can.

Pretty much, if you aren't having fun early on, you won't come back. It has nothing to do with the game play past MW games.

Now toss them into CW and they WILL HAVE a horrible experience. Heck, even a lot of veterans of MWO stay away from CW because it isn't fun. New players will wander in because they aren't blocked out, but if they block them out, then they won't stay. Its a double edged sword.

How do they solve that? Who knows. But again, if it isn't fun then people won't play it. Reason I don't play CW.

Edited by Bigbacon, 20 February 2015 - 05:34 AM.


#376 HARDKOR

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Posted 20 February 2015 - 06:41 AM

View PostDaFrog, on 18 February 2015 - 08:47 PM, said:

And then got destroyed by JFP and their hacks on 3 occasions.


You do not have the right mindset to play PvP games if you think they are hacking.

#377 Triordinant

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Posted 20 February 2015 - 06:41 AM

View PostBigbacon, on 20 February 2015 - 05:31 AM, said:

Pretty much, if you aren't having fun early on, you won't come back.

Now toss them into CW and they WILL HAVE a horrible experience. Heck, even a lot of veterans of MWO stay away from CW because it isn't fun.

I'm an MWO veteran. I've been playing it since Closed Beta. You're correct: I stay away from CW.

#378 Yokaiko

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Posted 20 February 2015 - 08:15 AM

View PostTriordinant, on 20 February 2015 - 06:41 AM, said:

I'm an MWO veteran. I've been playing it since Closed Beta. You're correct: I stay away from CW.



We have a number folks in my unit that are brand new, and I mean owned like two mechs when they joined and they are having a ball in CW.

Add to this that we swapped out of clans just as a number of our new jacks were just getting their clan drop decks together to make it that much harder for them.

Edited by Yokaiko, 20 February 2015 - 08:16 AM.


#379 Triordinant

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Posted 20 February 2015 - 09:03 AM

View PostYokaiko, on 20 February 2015 - 08:15 AM, said:



We have a number folks in my unit that are brand new, and I mean owned like two mechs when they joined and they are having a ball in CW.

Add to this that we swapped out of clans just as a number of our new jacks were just getting their clan drop decks together to make it that much harder for them.

Keep up the good work. You have to recruit new players to play CW in order to replace any that might leave. The most important information I got from the notes on Russ' town hall meeting was his answer to Question 16: on average, 13.5% of MWO players are playing CW and 86.5% are in the public queues. Most importantly, he says that number is not low and is in fact enough to sustain CW (otherwise he wouldn't say he's satisfied with it). He also says that number is holding steady which means just as many people are trying it as there are quitting it, if not a little more.

Even though I don't play CW and probably won't try it until it's no longer Beta, it's important to me personally that CW survives. I just hope it gets out of Beta sooner rather than later so they can work whole hog on PvE.

#380 Ax2Grind

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Posted 20 February 2015 - 01:21 PM

^^ The Beta tag is nothing but a marketing tool for PGI, as stated by PGI. It has as much meaning as when the PUB game was "launched". If you were here that day you will recall PGI forgetting to take the beta tag off that morning...and there being no changes to the game even once they yanked it.





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