217 replies to this topic

[Bishop Steiner]

Joseph Mallan, on 27 January 2015 - 11:20 AM, said:

Right. ANd the Masters is going to have speed mods, if you jump a heavy +3 Mod. The what if game is something that happened a lot on teh TT forums. this is one of teh more imaginative discussions.

I'll have a Panther next month. Wanna play when ya get your Urbie?

Sure would... I'll of course also have my Panther.... which I expect to be pretty bad, lol. I just have to see how dizzy I get from 360 torso twist....always sounded better than it worked, for me (MW4 Raven.... I really needed that center torso button, a lot!)

Also, on Btech Forums, I believe the 'Master was the poster child for hy BV has always been broken, lol. But I'll worry more about how they translate into MO when my Firestarters have infantry to roast and the Vehicle Module is added......

[Joseph Mallan]

Brody319, on 27 January 2015 - 11:21 AM, said:

I'd rather break lore a bit, to give the urbie a fighting chance in this game, rather than leaving it more lore friendly and rendering it completely useless. If you want a Slow urbanmech, then keep the STD 60 and watch the base. Me and my 180 urbie will actually get some kills and make some space bucks.

I want it to stay an easy target for my Semi slow Panther!

[wanderer]

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You know you can just leave the stock engine in there if you want. They don't have to have max enignes. Can't see a reason to be annoyed about engine cap unless it doesn't accommodate the engine size you want.. unless there is some weird butthurt about what other people are going to do with their urbies.

The faster an Urbie can be, the weaker it's quirks that would cover it for being slow. This is basically saying "We're building the stats for an Urbanmech based off a 'Mech that can hit these speeds because we expect lights to achieve them regardless as it's the only way we expect a light 'Mech on the field".

That is, unlike most 'Mechs it's engine rating is to make it average, rather than make it fast.

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Whether it has an 85 cap or a 180 cap, the quirk levels will be identical, because it will be a tier 5 mech, either way. There IS no lower tier, and thus now bonus quirks for being the worst tier 5 mech.

Let's note that the Thunderbolt-9S was quirked from a Tier 5 to one of the best IS heavies in the game. And if the base Urbie was that bad, it darn well could be the first true Tier 6. Nothing saying you can't go lower.

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Wanderer, but I (think) he bought one

I most assuredly put my money down.

Edited by wanderer, 27 January 2015 - 11:33 AM.

[FupDup]

wanderer, on 27 January 2015 - 11:29 AM, said:

Let's note that the Thunderbolt-9S was quirked from a Tier 5 to one of the best IS heavies in the game. And if the base Urbie was that bad, it darn well could be the first true Tier 6. Nothing saying you can't go lower.

We've already been over this. The Spider 5V was the first Tier 6 mech.

Edited by FupDup, 27 January 2015 - 11:30 AM.

[Brody319]

wanderer, on 27 January 2015 - 11:29 AM, said:

The faster an Urbie can be, the weaker it's quirks that would cover it for being slow. This is basically saying "We're building the stats for an Urbanmech based off a 'Mech that can hit these speeds because we expect lights to achieve them regardless as it's the only way we expect a light 'Mech on the field".

That is, unlike most 'Mechs it's engine rating is to make it average, rather than make it fast.



Let's note that the Thunderbolt-9S was quirked from a Tier 5 to one of the best IS heavies in the game. And if the base Urbie was that bad, it darn well could be the first true Tier 6. Nothing saying you can't go lower.

PGI's quirk system does NOT factor in speed! The Locust is one of the fastest mechs and look at the quirks it got!
If anything it will lose quirks because it can equip JJs.

[Ghogiel]

wanderer, on 27 January 2015 - 11:29 AM, said:

The faster an Urbie can be, the weaker it's quirks that would cover it for being slow. This is basically saying "We're building the stats for an Urbanmech based off a 'Mech that can hit these speeds because we expect lights to achieve them regardless as it's the only way we expect a light 'Mech on the field".

That is, unlike most 'Mechs it's engine rating is to make it average, rather than make it fast.



Let's note that the Thunderbolt-9S was quirked from a Tier 5 to one of the best IS heavies in the game. And if the base Urbie was that bad, it darn well could be the first true Tier 6. Nothing saying you can't go lower.

Conjecture. You don't even know the tier the urbie will be irrespective of enigne cap.

As for expanding the tier list, nothing saying it will go lower either.

[Gallowglas]

So let me get this straight...out of an outrage over canon and nostalgia, you'd rather them keep the slower speed they have in tabletop to preserve the essence of the original Urbie...while giving it massive quirks that give it massive bonuses to weapons that it didn't have in the tabletop?

[Aerik Lornes]

Can we get some code that puts "NOT" in front of the label for any Urbanmech design that utilizes an engine much greater than ~1.4x the original (90 rounding up(125 at the ABSOLUTE max))? That way the people NOT wanting to pilot an actual Urbanmech can still have the art and the rest of us can see them for their heresy.

I'm serious even though I know the request is frivolous.

[Bishop Steiner]

Aerik Lornes, on 27 January 2015 - 11:46 AM, said:

Can we get some code that puts "NOT" in front of the label for any Urbanmech design that utilizes an engine much greater than ~1.4x the original (90 rounding up(125 at the ABSOLUTE max))? That way the people NOT wanting to pilot an actual Urbanmech can still have the art and the rest of us can see them for their heresy.

I'm serious even though I know the request is frivolous.

that depends, do those who insist on keeping it useless get "***hat grognard" labels? Seems a fair trade.

Just asking, as the guy who probably pushed Russ the hardest, did the most to promote Urbanmechs in this game, etc, and yes, who plans to run 2 of them with 100 or less engines......

But who is also able to be a realist in seeing what concessions need be made to get enough buyers to get it, and what will be needed for it to be anymore than a Hanger decoration.

Edited by Bishop Steiner, 27 January 2015 - 11:50 AM.

[wanderer]

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you'd rather them keep the slower speed they have in tabletop to preserve the essence of the original Urbie...while giving it massive quirks that give it massive bonuses to weapons that it didn't have in the tabletop?

Like the MWO Hunchback, only more so since unlike that, it wouldn't have the (massively) expanded engine cap. Right on the money.

Note that any ballistic quirks it gets are self-limited simply due to the fact that you can only stuff so much ammo into a 30-tonner even WITH the tiny Urbie engine. And said quirks would make it in MWO what it is in TT- a slow,tiny 'Mech with a big gun that can put tremendous firepower downrange for a limited time, enough to kill lights that stray into it's path and threaten larger ones. What it can't do is maneuver that gun or take it far outside of covering terrain, but heaven help us for wanting a 'Mech whose flaws and advantages are as unique as the Urbie is, versus one statted out to have both as lukewarm as possible.

Edited by wanderer, 27 January 2015 - 11:50 AM.

[Joseph Mallan]

Bishop Steiner, on 27 January 2015 - 11:48 AM, said:

that depends, do those who insist on keeping it useless get "***hat grognard" labels? Seems a fair trade.

Put it on my Right torso... heart height! right were the Ribbon Rack goes.

Edited by Joseph Mallan, 27 January 2015 - 11:51 AM.

[jper4]

Walluh, on 27 January 2015 - 02:08 AM, said:

A dire wolf couldn't survive going 32.

How do you think an Urbie would manage?

by hiding behind the direwolf

[wanderer]

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by jumping on top of the direwolf

Fixed that for you. WE SAVE OUR LIGHTS.

[CygnusX7]

[Myke Pantera]

Bishop Steiner, on 27 January 2015 - 11:12 AM, said:

you buy a Pack? Because at the moment, and no disrespect, but it's the people who crowd funded it, that IMO, really have any say in it. For instance, I may vehemently disagree with Wanderer, but I (think) he bought one, so has at least some place to say. Because it's being made with his money. And mine.

Now if for some reason it shows up and is game breaking, OP, etc, then yeah, people have a place to speak up, but honestly, that ain't gonna happen.

You serious? I pay more than you, so get the f*** out of here? Is this how we wonna argue about things? I spent enough money on this game to have a say according to your logic, but honestly: even if I didn't i'd have a say as long as I play this game.

I get it, you've been a fan of this mech for a long time, something I have never been, but may or may not be in the future. I will buy the UrbanMech for cash if they quirk it in a way that i can use AC 10 or higher on it, but that won't be achieved with high engine caps. My suggestion is more in the line of AC quirks, strukture quirks, the removal of the minimum heatsink requirement (either for all mechs or just the Urbie) BUT a low engine cap of like 160. I can live with 180 as well ofc, but i'd be pissed if it comes close to the Panther in terms of speed.

If it doesn't get the minimum heatsink requirement removed, you basically can't run it with a high calliber ACs and than i don't see the point of running it at all. I rather play the Panther then. The only way I would want it than is if they added a game-mode for it that is Urbie exclusive (something that has been meantioned by Russ somewhere at some point as joke), but even then... My interrest in this mech depends on whether i can run it with AC/10s (at a reasonable speed somewhere between 90-100) or not.

And don't tell me that my oppinion isn't worth anything as long as i don't pay as much as you do ever again!

Edit: I'd like something like: AC/10 w/ 3.5t Ammo, 2xSmall Laser, 4xJJ, XL 160 (can be done on Anannsi, but not saved because of HS limit)

Edited by Myke Pantera, 27 January 2015 - 12:03 PM.

[FupDup]

This isn't directed at any one person, but I've been seeing people try to oversimplify the Urbie Dilemma pretty often. The popular belief is that this is a bipolar "black and white" issue, but there are some shades of grey in there that get overlooked as well. There are three total positions that I have discovered so far:


1. The group that believes the Urbanmech should be a joke that you drive just because it's an Urbanmech. They literally want it to be useless, and exist only as a "challenge" or bragging rights when you manage to kill something with it. These people often want an engine cap extremely tiny around 85 or perhaps not even be able to customize the engine at all, and they also don't want any significant quirks for the mech.

1.5. This special group seems to be exclusive to Wanderer for the most part. On one hand he wants a very small engine cap like group 1, but on the other hand he also seems to be receptive to very massive gigaquirks to compensate for that (which resembles group 2) to make it somewhat viable.

2. The group that's stuck in the middle. They don't want stock speeds, but they also don't want NASCAR 150kph speeds. Their goal is to try to ride the razor's edge between slow enough to be outran by "normal" lights but just barely fast enough to play the so-called "escort" role that Clan lights try to play in the present game. This group also wants quirks of varying degree (depending on who you ask) to further help viability.

3. The group that wants the cap to be in-line with MWO's "standard" lights, i.e. 255 or whatever. Basically about just as fast as the majority of lights. This group is trying to fit the Urbs into the standard competitive metagame for light mechs, which is to outrun robots with moar gunz and armor than they have.


For clarity, I classify myself under Group #2.

[Bishop Steiner]

Myke Pantera, on 27 January 2015 - 12:01 PM, said:

You serious? I pay more than you, so get the f*** out of here? Is this how we wonna argue about things? I spent enough money on this game to have a say according to your logic, but honestly: even if I didn't i'd have a say as long as I play this game.

I get it, you've been a fan of this mech for a long time, something I have never been, but may or may not be in the future. I will buy the UrbanMech for cash if they quirk it in a way that i can use AC 10 or higher on it, but that won't be achieved with high engine caps. My suggestion is more in the line of AC quirks, strukture quirks, the removal of the minimum heatsink requirement (either for all mechs or just the Urbie) BUT a low engine cap of like 160. I can live with 180 as well ofc, but i'd be pissed if it comes close to the Panther in terms of speed.

If it doesn't get the minimum heatsink requirement removed, you basically can't run it with a high calliber ACs and than i don't see the point of running it at all. I rather play the Panther then. The only way I would want it than is if they added a game-mode for it that is Urbie exclusive (something that has been meantioned by Russ somewhere at some point as joke), but even then... My interrest in this mech depends on whether i can run it with AC/10s (at a reasonable speed somewhere between 90-100) or not.

And don't tell me that my oppinion isn't worth anything as long as i don't pay as much as you do ever again!

Edit: I'd like something like: AC/10 w/ 3.5t Ammo, 2xSmall Laser, 4xJJ, XL 160 (can be done on Anannsi, but not saved because of HS limit)

Not what is being said at all.

What is being said, is this mech, this project is entirely crowdfunded. Therefore YES, those who are crowdfunding it do get a little more say than those who are not.

Because those who ain't buying, got no horse in this race.

[wanderer]

Just as a note: Urbies (the -60) actually come with 11 heat sinks.

Pretty much means a free ton for ammo right there, and endosteel adds another 1.5 tons.

3.5 tons is 52 shots for an AC/10. Or you go with 3 tons and goose the engine up a bit. It's already near maximum armor. That's enough to do some damage in the Urbie's lifespan, given decent quirks.

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On one hand he wants a very small engine cap like group 1

Not quite the utterly glacial, but I don't want max-speed Urbies outrunning many medium 'Mechs, ever. 125 max gives it the option of hitting up to 74kph with speed tweak, which means it can keep up with bigger heavies and assaults if you wanted to soup it up (and roughly gives it 200% of it's stock rating for a cap, which is still leaps and bounds past any other design in the game). Given excellent generic ballistic quirks, you might well see AC/5 "speed Urbies" given that cap that can at least put their single (relatively) small gun downrange and pop off a few clips with alacrity, accuracy, and respectable firepower.

I'd like to see the three Urbie models be very, very good with their stock ballistic, very good with generic ballistics, have a good quirk for their SL/SPL, and little to no generic energy bonuses otherwise.

Edited by wanderer, 27 January 2015 - 12:14 PM.

[occusoj]

Bishop Steiner, on 27 January 2015 - 10:55 AM, said:

actually, Russ, in introducing it in the TH, said he would make it nice. We, the people paying for it, are just asking he keeps his word.

PGI say a lot of things. Pressing F4 shows the value of their word and what the people paying for it achieved.
Of course that was nothing but IGP fault, what else.

Urbie needs to be somewhat tough, not fast.
If it can go as fast as a slow medium and get near its durability, fine. Thats an Urban mech.
No mega-quirkening. Not for speed, not for weapons. Its a slow mech that has good armor for its weight and packs a big gun that can deal deal nice PPFLD damage with the limited ammo it has.
You wanted a mech with those limitations, you should get it and not shop for buffs like its a candy store.

Bishop Steiner, on 27 January 2015 - 11:12 AM, said:

Because at the moment, and no disrespect, but it's the people who crowd funded it, that IMO, really have any say in it. .....Because it's being made with his money.

Ordering mech stats based on money paid by a small group of players is a dangerous road to go on.
But then, money makes the world go round, doesnt it?

How much do you think a decent Pillager would cost us? With LongTom?
Of course exclusive to founders.

[Aerik Lornes]

Bishop Steiner, on 27 January 2015 - 11:48 AM, said:

that depends, do those who insist on keeping it useless get "***hat grognard" labels? Seems a fair trade.

I'd wear it proudly, but I think you are making the deal too good. Getting an "***hat" label from you is a much greater honor than being labeled a grognard.

Edited by Aerik Lornes, 27 January 2015 - 12:10 PM.