146 replies to this topic

[PewPew]

Cross-posting from http://mwomercs.com/...ange-on-damage/. Probably not an original idea, but I feel like this needs more attention.

Something I noticed in the gameplay videos is that there is still a lot of circle strafing or a linear clashing of forces. The two teams just run towards each other and then duke it out. It seems the gameplay still doesn't lend itself to more complex strategies.

Of course, it is impossible to be certain based on what we know, but discussion can only benefit us here. In addition, this has been the case for all past Mechwarrior games including the most recent MW:LL mod.

What do you guys think of the idea in the link above? To increase close range damage of certain weapons in order to make close-combat much more dangerous. If you could drop a mech much faster, there wouldn't be drawn out circle strafe matches. This would encourage smarter, stealthy maneuvering by close range mechs and make fire support mechs have to be on their toes. This would also lead to scouts being far more important to the team than just collecting locational/damage data.

[ManDaisy]

What would really go a long way in reducing circle strafing would be giving mechs the ability to juke, feint, and sidestep. As it is now circle strafing is the only way to avoid fire, so thats what people are always gonna do.

Why do people circle strafe? To make them a harder target. Is there anyway other way to be a hard target other then quick strafing runs that will expose your back? Nope. Thus infinite circle strafing.

Edited by ManDaisy, 28 June 2012 - 06:33 PM.

[BFalcon]

eliminate circle strafing and you kill off Light mechs. Their speed is the only way they can stay alive - one or two good hits from an assault will kill it else.

[Stray Ion]

NO do not take out the "CIRCLE OF DEATH". It takes skill to perform and make every hit land.

[ManDaisy]

Yeah circle strafing is going to be always the primary way of fighting because there is not other way to dodge in the open.

Edited by ManDaisy, 28 June 2012 - 06:40 PM.

[PewPew]

BFalcon, on 28 June 2012 - 06:33 PM, said:

eliminate circle strafing and you kill off Light mechs. Their speed is the only way they can stay alive - one or two good hits from an assault will kill it else.

Increasing damage will not decrease the speed of light mechs.

This adjustment should by no means get rid of circle strafing as a viable tactic for making fast targets hard to hit. It will simply shorten the long, drawn out circle strafe battles between larger mechs that happens so often.

To respond to light mechs being eliminated - Damage models could be manipulated in a way that the increase in, say, AC20 damage has less effect on lighter mechs than it does on heavier mechs. It would maybe decrease the amount of hits needed on a light mech by 1 hit, but it would decrease the amount of hits needed on a heavier mech by 2-3.

To illustrate with a simplification:

A light mech has 60 hp and a heavy has 100 hp.

AC20 does 20 damage standard.

A light mech can take 3 hits. A heavy can take 5.

Increase the damage of AC20 by 5 at close range, bringing it to 25.

A light mech can take 3 hits. A heavy mech can take 4.

Edited by PewPew, 28 June 2012 - 06:46 PM.

[CEF Particleman]

Get rid of circle straffe, it is the number one thing that has kept the true Battletech players from really taking a hold of MW3 and 4. Making the weapons ranged will not help either, use terain and cover just like the original game.

[Coolant]

absolutely love Circle of Death...

[Incunabulum]

About the only way to reduce/eliminate circle strafing is going to be reducing the turning rate of mechs, especially at high speeds. If the turning radius is reduced enough that you can only circle quickly at a great range or slowly in-close.

If you want to keep a high level of maneuverability then you're going to have to put up with the circle-strafe.

The issue of light mechs is different. They really aren't intended to engage indirect combat with mechs outside their weight class. Without circle strafe they can't take on larger mechs one-on-one but can still function just fine as scouts and skirmishers or directly engaging other light mechs. It just means that players can't use light mechs in quite the same way they could in other games.

Edited by Incunabulum, 28 June 2012 - 06:54 PM.

[BenEEeees VAT GROWN BACON]

Circle of Death is a predominant Mechwarrior tactic because of how viable it is in open combat, it is bread and butter. If this were to be discouraged then limiting torso twist and having map obstacles would be more effective than varying weapon damage.

You were concerned about the lack of complex strategies, but I think you shouldn't be. Strategies, tactics and the meta-game will take time to evolve and MW:O isn't out of the beta yet.

In MW4, because of how the meta-game worked out, pop-tarting became a very popular tactic. In all previous MW's, because of the unrestrictiveness of the Mech Lab, Laser-boating and Missile-boating became dominant.

MW:O has built their game built around pillars of gameplay for the specific purpose of introducing variety in battle. Hopefully as players learn how to use these pillars properly we will see a range of viable tactics instead of just a couple of predominant ones.

[Alfred VonGunn]

PewPew, on 28 June 2012 - 06:28 PM, said:

Cross-posting from http://mwomercs.com/...ange-on-damage/. Probably not an original idea, but I feel like this needs more attention.

Something I noticed in the gameplay videos is that there is still a lot of circle strafing or a linear clashing of forces. The two teams just run towards each other and then duke it out. It seems the gameplay still doesn't lend itself to more complex strategies.

Of course, it is impossible to be certain based on what we know, but discussion can only benefit us here. In addition, this has been the case for all past Mechwarrior games including the most recent MW:LL mod.

What do you guys think of the idea in the link above? To increase close range damage of certain weapons in order to make close-combat much more dangerous. If you could drop a mech much faster, there wouldn't be drawn out circle strafe matches. This would encourage smarter, stealthy maneuvering by close range mechs and make fire support mechs have to be on their toes. This would also lead to scouts being far more important to the team than just collecting locational/damage data.

Makes no real sense .. none of the ranges are really long as it is... I could see a higher damage at short range on lasers if they had a range of a couple thousand meters.. but not when some are barely 1/2 a klick... Same for ACs.

[Irreverence]

I see no issue with circle strafing. If you don't like it, don't do it.

[Stray Ion]

Here is an idea, develope skill and learn how to combat circle straffing. If two mechs end up in a long drawn out match due to circle straffing, IMO neither are very skilled and one should have ran away to try something different.

This game hasn't even launched yet and there have been more posts than I can count about what people do not want to see in game. Life is not fair, this game shouldn't be either. Just because something annoys you doesn't mean other things should be altered to get rid of them. All this game would be left with is "hey look at the pretty mech".

Mechwarrior is not a clicky clikcy game. No matter if you use a joystick or mouse, it requires hand eye coordination. Every tactic which is thrown at you can be countered. Not everyone is willing to train others on how to combat strategy. The only other ways to learn is watch others play, or not being afraid to get blown up multiple times and develope skill and stratagy yourself; which is how I learned playing previous MW games.

[Warfeli]

The circle of death will remain present. If you want to remove it, then you will essentially have to remove torso twist. Then the game will be similar to aircraft SIM dogfights but on the ground, so even more limited and linear. I do not believe weapons damage will affect circle strafing in any way.

So I vehemently disagree. I <3 the circle of death and feel it is an important aspect of MW.

Edited by Warfeli, 28 June 2012 - 07:06 PM.

[PewPew]

BenEEeees VAT GROWN BACON, on 28 June 2012 - 06:56 PM, said:

Circle of Death is a predominant Mechwarrior tactic because of how viable it is in open combat, it is bread and butter. If this were to be discouraged then limiting torso twist and having map obstacles would be more effective than varying weapon damage.

You were concerned about the lack of complex strategies, but I think you shouldn't be. Strategies, tactics and the meta-game will take time to evolve and MW:O isn't out of the beta yet.

In MW4, because of how the meta-game worked out, pop-tarting became a very popular tactic. In all previous MW's, because of the unrestrictiveness of the Mech Lab, Laser-boating and Missile-boating became dominant.

MW:O has built their game built around pillars of gameplay for the specific purpose of introducing variety in battle. Hopefully as players learn how to use these pillars properly we will see a range of viable tactics instead of just a couple of predominant ones.

I think there needs to be complexity or depth in order for a solid metagame to develop. In past MW titles, the metagame has always been incredibly simple.

People play certain ways because that's what wins. In the current state, the biggest factor in who wins is who can put out the most damage as fast as they can. This will not change unless doing something different can provide a significant benefit. And in order to create significant benefit or incentive to do otherwise, there needs to be consequences for NOT playing strategically. This means if you make a misstep and get caught, you should be punished for that. If you accidentally stumble into a group of enemies, you should be punished for that.

Alfred VonGunn, on 28 June 2012 - 06:58 PM, said:

Makes no real sense .. none of the ranges are really long as it is... I could see a higher damage at short range on lasers if they had a range of a couple thousand meters.. but not when some are barely 1/2 a klick... Same for ACs.

I'm not talking about increasing damages for short-range weapons at a flat rate. I'm saying increase the damage of certain weapons at close ranges. Damage will be a function of range.

This is kind of frustrating when people read "eliminate circle strafing" and then dismiss the entire concept without reading what it actually is.

Edited by PewPew, 28 June 2012 - 07:08 PM.

[Mechwarrior Buddah]

ManDaisy, on 28 June 2012 - 06:32 PM, said:

What would really go a long way in reducing circle strafing would be giving mechs the ability to juke, feint, and sidestep. As it is now circle strafing is the only way to avoid fire, so thats what people are always gonna do.

Why do people circle strafe? To make them a harder target. Is there anyway other way to be a hard target other then quick strafing runs that will expose your back? Nope. Thus infinite circle strafing.

Yeah its kinda the "why do we want to limit useful strategies in this game?" Argument that keeps coming up concerning things like legging

[PewPew]

514yer, on 28 June 2012 - 07:07 PM, said:

Yeah its kinda the "why do we want to limit useful strategies in this game?"

To reduce the dominance of the strategy and encourage a greater variety of more complex strategies.

That way the game has the potential to be more than "who has better aim in a fast-paced brawl".

[John Kerensky]

If you dislike "Circle-Strafing", then I suggest you stay in terrain that does not permit it. From my observations, there is plenty such restrictive terrain and I suspect it is not by accident.

[Stray Ion]

PewPew, on 28 June 2012 - 07:14 PM, said:

To reduce the dominance of the strategy and encourage a greater variety of more complex strategies.

That way the game has the potential to be more than "who has better aim in a fast-paced brawl".

And when it gets out of beta who is to say it will be a fast paced brawl? Every stratagy can be countered. Really as far as I can tell the only thing not drawing it out is the time limit I have read about. If there was unlimited time matches, which I'm not saying there should be; I bet cbills they would be a spectacle to behold.

[PewPew]

Stray Ion, on 28 June 2012 - 07:21 PM, said:

And when it gets out of beta who is to say it will be a fast paced brawl? Every stratagy can be countered.

Quote

Of course, it is impossible to be certain based on what we know, but discussion can only benefit us here. In addition, this has been the case for all past Mechwarrior games including the most recent MW:LL mod.

Edited by PewPew, 28 June 2012 - 07:25 PM.