44 replies to this topic

[DaZur]

Okay... I've got this pretty little Quickdraw -5K that I've effectively honed into the optimum non-meta mech that fits my quirky play style.

I've thus far invested 68+ hours into it and have slowly been amassing a respectable 1.20 W/L ratio and again a respectable 1.30 KDR...

Here's the thing... I think I've hit the proverbial "glass ceiling" with this particular mech, in it's existing configuration, within the constraints of my play style.

In short... no matter what I do, how I play or when i play, 1.30 +/- in either ratio is the highest I've ever been able to achieve in many-many hours of play.

What I think is happening is once I begin to eek above 1.30, my Elo begins to fit me into matches where both players as well as mechs / mech configurations represent either player skill levels and or mech designs that ultimately mitigate even my best efforts in the Quickdraw.

I.e... No matter how spectacular a pilot I am in this mech, 1.30 is the apex potential of this mech, piloted by me.

Anyone else run into this? Thoughts?... discuss.

Edited by DaZur, 27 January 2015 - 09:59 PM.

[Mister Blastman]

If your KDR is 1.3 then you have a loooooooooooooooooooong way to go towards improving. I don't think you have come close to maximizing how good you can play in that 'mech.

[DaZur]

Mister Blastman, on 27 January 2015 - 10:08 PM, said:

If your KDR is 1.3 then you have a loooooooooooooooooooong way to go towards improving. I don't think you have come close to maximizing how good you can play in that 'mech.

Fair assessment... Now does that assessment stand considering I am a.) not a comp-player. b.) While affiliated with a unit rarely play with them and tend to PUG 99.9% of my play-time?

[Mister Blastman]

DaZur, on 27 January 2015 - 10:15 PM, said:

Fair assessment... Now does that assessment stand considering I am a.) not a comp-player. b.) While affiliated with a unit rarely play with them and tend to PUG 99.9% of my play-time?

Absolutely. When you start reaching 3.0+ KDR and break 60 - 62% win/loss ratio in PUG queue alone in a particular 'mech--well, at that point you're starting to rock n' roll in it. Get to 5+ and you're killing it.

Remember, your KDR in PUG queue is gonna be a fair bit lower than if you play with groups (good ones) but 3.0 is definitely within reasonable reach solo.

[DaZur]

Mister Blastman, on 27 January 2015 - 10:18 PM, said:

Absolutely. When you start reaching 3.0+ KDR and break 60 - 62% win/loss ratio in PUG queue alone in a particular 'mech--well, at that point you're starting to rock n' roll in it. Get to 5+ and you're killing it.

Remember, your KDR in PUG queue is gonna be a fair bit lower than if you play with groups (good ones) but 3.0 is definitely within reasonable reach solo.

Appreciate the civil discussion over this... It could very easily had gone south very quickly.

Next question then is by your assessment is this a case of me not necessarily playing up to potential or does it have more to do with my limited exposure to actual "play opportunities"... I.e. Is the 2 to 3 hours 3 to 5 times a week mitigating my results?

Edited by DaZur, 27 January 2015 - 10:24 PM.

[Mister Blastman]

DaZur, on 27 January 2015 - 10:22 PM, said:

Appreciate the civil discussion over this... I could very easily had gone south very quickly.

Next question then is by your assessment is this a case of me not necessarily playing up to potential or does it have more to do with my limited exposure to actual "play opportunities"... I.e. Is the 2 to 3 hours 3 to 5 times a week mitigating my results?

If you're playing that much then it is within reach. Normally I'd expect a top player to put in a minimum of 15 or so hours a week to keep their skills up and it looks to me you're putting in probably on average 10+ so that's fair.

You don't have to eat breathe and sleep this game to be tops at it. Not at all.

If this were an RTS or something then that's a different story. When I was #1 in the world in StarCraft back in the late 90s on the team Case's ladder I literally had to put in 16 hours a day in my early twenties. That sucked. Well, that was my college curriculum. Screw the textbooks (business major--what a joke, was a waste of time in retrospect considering I was computer programming after I graduated). But yeah, those were LOOOOONG hours for miniscule differences in build/play strategies.

Thankfully MWO and most FPS games for that matter don't require those absurd amount of hours. I'd say from my previous competitive experience in Team Fortress 2 to remain tops in MWO requires less time than that game. But the skill ceiling in TF 2 is quite a bit higher than MWO.

10 - 15 should be adequate to get you there but I'd lean more towards 15 if you want to break through. You can do it--anyone can in this game if you put your mind to it. Everytime you die (and it isn't due to a bad drop--we get LOTS of those in this game due to the matchmaker) ask yourself what you did wrong and focus on cutting that bad habit out of your gameplay. Even after playing this game for two years I still find bad habits that need polishing. So put your mind towards changing them and you'll find yourself progressing man.

[Levi Porphyrogenitus]

The more you play, the more slowly the ratios will change. Have patience and keep working at it and you should see the stats slowly climb.

[YueFei]

Top performers in any field do film study. They'll film themselves, or get others to film them, and study it afterwards. Then they'll do drills to specifically address the weaknesses and break themselves of bad habits or hone specific skills.

Also, many top performers have coaches attending to their play personally. In many cases their coaches were respectable players themselves, but not at the very top of the game, but the player was still able to learn alot from their coach.

I would note that some highly successful players later went on to try to coach, only to be awful at coaching. The skillsets don't necessarily overlap. A fine player (but not top player) may have excellent coaching skills and can help a very talented player aspiring to be the best to improve himself.

I'm a mediocre player myself, and I don't put in that kind of effort into this game, but if you really want to improve, I can't stress how important it is to record your gameplay for later review.

Cheers!

[DaZur]

Appreciate the advice.

To be fair... I have no great drive to be a top player. Only a "competent and competitive" one. I realize that sounds like I'm selling short but the reality is I play to have fun... occasionally to the detriment of my personal progression.

The opening post was not so much a "hey look at me" thing but more so what I saw as a parallel between my ratios, the mechs I primarily pilot and my play-style.

If I'm reading your comments correctly, clearly I'm not performing as adequately as my self assessment gleaned.

Edited by DaZur, 28 January 2015 - 09:25 PM.

[DaZur]

As a side note...

Just when I think this community has gone to pot, you guys drop in and actually share some intelligent discussion with zero snark or discourse.

Kudos!

Edited by DaZur, 27 January 2015 - 10:48 PM.

[Ultimax]

One point of note is that your elo for your quickdraw, being a heavy mech, is based on all of your heavy mechs.

There is no individual chassis/variant elo in the current game.


Even if you're comfortable with your build, you might try some new things with it. You can always swap back at some point.


I don't own quickdraws, but I'd be tempted to try these builds.


1
2
3
4
5

[Impossible Wasabi]

Mister Blastman, on 27 January 2015 - 10:31 PM, said:

Everytime you die (and it isn't due to a bad drop--we get LOTS of those in this game due to the matchmaker) ask yourself what you did wrong and focus on cutting that bad habit out of your gameplay. Even after playing this game for two years I still find bad habits that need polishing. So put your mind towards changing them and you'll find yourself progressing man.

This is pretty much the best advice the Space Pope could offer, great players learn from their mistakes and try to constantly adapt/improve/develop/etc.

It's a theory of the Space Pope that the greatest difference between a great player and a decent player, is that the great player continues to learn and try to improve their skill, while a decent player at some point just decides they are doing all they can or that they are happy where they are.

As Mister Blastman said, a kill to death ratio above 3.0 in any current mech (basically any mech that is currently a good meta) and at least a decent win/loss are good things to strive for (although the Space Pope would not suggest you really care what other people's stats are, instead focus on improving your own incrementally by getting continually better).

It can also be a good idea to look at some of the competitive teams playing matches to see if there are some things you can pick up and incorporate in your own play-style or at the very least learn to counter.

However, in the end having fun is the name of the game, so if having fun means doing a little bit worse (or using less meta builds), then the Space Pope would always suggest you play in whatever way you find the most fun.

Edited by The True Space Pope, 27 January 2015 - 11:06 PM.

[DaZur]

Ultimatum X, on 27 January 2015 - 10:52 PM, said:

One point of note is that your elo for your quickdraw, being a heavy mech, is based on all of your heavy mechs.

There is no individual chassis/variant elo in the current game.

Even if you're comfortable with your build, you might try some new things with it. You can always swap back at some point.

Understood... My other heavy is the typical meta-Ilya so it stands to reason the -5K gets dragged into the Elo soup with it.

I presently run example "5".

I've run a myriad of other configurations and the longevity of the Quickdraw becomes quite exposed if you run mediums let alone pulse. Ya gotta kinda skirmish at range with the Quickdraw...

PPCs and me don't mix well either... I'm not the twitch player I used to be and hitting stuff with the PPC, especially while moving is an act of futility.

[Alistair Winter]

YueFei, on 27 January 2015 - 10:37 PM, said:

Top performers in any field do film study. They'll film themselves, or get others to film them, and study it afterwards. Then they'll do drills to specifically address the weaknesses and break themselves of bad habits or hone specific skills.
Also, many top performers have coaches attending to their play personally. In many cases their coaches were respectable players themselves, but not at the very top of the game, but the player was still able to learn alot from their coach.

As someone who has played computer games for countless of hours since the 1980's... I will never understand this behaviour, unless said players are physically handicapped or suffer from social anxiety that prevents them from doing real sports. And yeah, I get that some people play computer games professionally, or aspire to, because millions of people like to watch them player. I don't really understand that either. Even though I play a lot of computer games, this is one of the weirdest parts of human behaviour, to me. I'm not saying it's wrong, I just don't understand it. Which makes it even weirder to me, because one would think a person like me would totally understand it.

I do know several people who played Star Craft and other RTS games on a high level, even national teams, before getting into martial arts. Apparently, the same competitive mindset that drove them to excel (and become addicted) to computer games also made them brilliant martial artists, and making the national teams in that sport too. But I've also seen people go from being supremely talented martial artists, and revert back to only playing computer games like Star Craft. Which really blew my mind. I can't even imagine being an elite judoka, for example, and then just saying "Meh, screw this, I'd much rather drill rocket jumping techniques in Quake."

In regards to the OP, I've found that I can get a 3+ KDR with certain mechs and at best a 1.0 KDR with other mechs. I would never in my life strive to do better with mechs that simply don't fit my playstyle. But I do know this ceiling you speak of. I just sell the mechs I can't do well with. Like the Shadowhawks, for some reason.

[627]

The True Space Pope, on 27 January 2015 - 10:57 PM, said:

It can also be a good idea to look at some of the competitive teams playing matches to see if there are some things you can pick up and incorporate in your own play-style or at the very least learn to counter.

That won't help for Pug play, though. just watch a generic "competitive" game between two teams and watch one of your everyday pug games. It is like a whole different game.

And on a side note, I never saw a quickdraw in a comp match

Sometimes you just have to admit to yourself that you aren't as skilled at this game as the top players and you could train like an idiot and wouldn't reach the same level. This is a hard truth and I don't say that easy or to demotivate anyone, but you have to stay realistic or it will break you.

That said, before we talk about builds or so, first thing should be to define a good player. What is needed to achieve a K/D of 3 in PUG?
Aim?
Movement?
Ping and Meta?

What are the basics?

[YueFei]

DaZur, on 27 January 2015 - 10:42 PM, said:

Appreciate the advise.

To be fair... I have no great drive to be a top player. Only a "competent and competitive" one. I realize that sounds like I'm selling short but the reality is I play to have fun... occasionally to the detriment of my personal progression.

The opening post was not so much a "hey look at me" thing but more so what I saw as a parallel between my ratios, the mechs I primarily pilot and my play-style.

If I'm reading your comments correctly, clearly I'm not performing as adequately as my self assessment gleaned.

Oh I think you're doing pretty good. You're doing better than I am! I'm playing about 3 to 4 hours per week of MWO, and I have something like a 1.1 W/L.

But I think at some point, there really is a plateau if all you do is just play more hours. I think I've personally hit my own glass ceiling, and I just enjoy the game where I'm at.

Basically you have X-number of hours to spend on this hobby, and I think you can maximize the amount of learning you get from that limited time by getting a better player to help coach you, along with recording your matches.

[DaZur]

627, on 27 January 2015 - 11:15 PM, said:

What constitutes a "good player" and or what are the requites?

Depends who you ask.

As a PUG player:

- Routinely win more than you lose.
- Consistently score in the top 1/3rd of the combined team.
- Consistently contribute to the core goal to win.
- Routinely net 200k+ sans premium.

As a Comp player:
- Consistently Win... period.
- Consistently score in the top 1/4th of the combined team.
- 3.0+ ratios.

At least that's my perception of it...

[YueFei]

Alistair Winter, on 27 January 2015 - 11:14 PM, said:

As someone who has played computer games for countless of hours since the 1980's... I will never understand this behaviour, unless said players are physically handicapped or suffer from social anxiety that prevents them from doing real sports. And yeah, I get that some people play computer games professionally, or aspire to, because millions of people like to watch them player. I don't really understand that either. Even though I play a lot of computer games, this is one of the weirdest parts of human behaviour, to me. I'm not saying it's wrong, I just don't understand it. Which makes it even weirder to me, because one would think a person like me would totally understand it.

I do know several people who played Star Craft and other RTS games on a high level, even national teams, before getting into martial arts. Apparently, the same competitive mindset that drove them to excel (and become addicted) to computer games also made them brilliant martial artists, and making the national teams in that sport too. But I've also seen people go from being supremely talented martial artists, and revert back to only playing computer games like Star Craft. Which really blew my mind. I can't even imagine being an elite judoka, for example, and then just saying "Meh, screw this, I'd much rather drill rocket jumping techniques in Quake."

In regards to the OP, I've found that I can get a 3+ KDR with certain mechs and at best a 1.0 KDR with other mechs. I would never in my life strive to do better with mechs that simply don't fit my playstyle. But I do know this ceiling you speak of. I just sell the mechs I can't do well with. Like the Shadowhawks, for some reason.

I think mainly that's human laziness? Maintaining top form as an athlete requires constant training and conditioning. Like... Jerry Rice was legendary for his obsessiveness with fitness. Other NFL players went to try to work-out with him, and they quit after the first day and never came back to train with him again.

But you can develop top skill as a video gamer and that doesn't decay as quickly, and even if it does decay, you can get back into "shape" sooner.

Mmm, for a physical example of this, look at exhibition shooters. Many of them continue to be capable of amazing trick shots even well into their later years, even though their fitness is not that good anymore. Probably because that skill requires fine motor control and hand-eye coordination, but not necessarily top level fitness.

I remember when I was in track and field, many teammates and I trained til our feet were bleeding, literally. We wouldn't even feel it. We'd take off our shoes and the socks would be stained with blood. My school had a tradition to uphold, having won the county championship 13 years in a row. I guess we all felt the pressure to keep the streak going.

Now? Let's just say I don't run nearly as many miles as I used to.

[Alistair Winter]

YueFei, on 27 January 2015 - 11:36 PM, said:

I think mainly that's human laziness? Maintaining top form as an athlete requires constant training and conditioning.

No, I don't think it's laziness. After all, people enjoy some things as a casual pasttime, while dedicating themselves fully to other things. I enjoy drawing, but I don't practice two hours every day. It's not because I'm lazy, I don't think. It's more because drawing is something I do to relax and get away from it all.

One might marvel at how humans, coming from primitive hunter-gatherer tribes, will develop so many unique interests. Some people are fascinated by airplanes, others by cooking, or horse-back riding or astronomy or make-up or statistics or medicine or poetry. It's almost like some people were meant to be MechWarriors, as if it were their destiny, but the only way they can fulfill their potential is to play computer games.

Especially when you watch a game like Star Citizen, and millions of people around the world who want to go live in that virtual world of exploration, space combat and interstellar trade, I can't help but feel that those people were born in the wrong era. They feel more at home in that future world than the present. The beautiful Star Citizen trailer starts with the words "Imagine... that you could be whoever you wanted to be." And it feels like some people were destined to win the Murray cup. For whatever reason, evolution gave them the perfect set of abilities to win a race in space.

But then, if you look at someone participating in a beauty pageant, are they really fulfilling their potential as human beings? Was that really their destiny? Are they simply more dedicated, while people who don't dedicate their lives to the same kind of ideal are lazy? I'm not sure. When I look at people who devote their lives to looking like dolls, I can't help but feel like their aspirations are misguided and unhealthy. In this case, the romantic idea that it was their destiny doesn't sit right with me.

At the end of the day, perhaps it's just a bunch of random mutations in our DNA that decide whether we want to win a hot-dog eating contest or be a doctor. And we're just sort of along for the ride.

The only thing I can say for certain is that the Quickdraw is a terrible mech, but I feel tempted to buy it after reading this thread.

[Divine Retribution]

A 1.2 W/L ratio is good. Sometimes players forget that 1:1 is the average in every PvP game. Every time you win someone else loses. You can still improve if you want to invest the time. You just need to reflect on your playing to recognize and learn from the mistakes you make. The more matches you already have the longer it takes to makes a noticeable difference.

There is also a point of diminishing returns as with any other competitive activity. If you watched the top 100 players go at it with the same mech loadout in a series of duels I doubt you'd see more than a few subtle differences. Slightly better accuracy, slightly better reaction time, slightly better situational awareness, probably at the cost of significantly more time invested.

627, on 27 January 2015 - 11:15 PM, said:

That said, before we talk about builds or so, first thing should be to define a good player. What is needed to achieve a K/D of 3 in PUG?
Aim?
Movement?
Ping and Meta?

What are the basics?

Situational awareness and decent aim. With a little bitterness at some players in solo matches I'm noticing more and more the rest of the answer is a willingness to hide while others do the work, followed by the bravery required to step in front of the teammate who did the work to get the last hit in. Generally surviving until most the enemy are shot up then trying to clean up is another option.

You know the games where everyone huddles and no one seems willing to risk taking damage, right up to the point where they are surrounded and slaughtered? Or players that manage to pick up multiple kills while doing little damage and ending with a sub-50 match score? Those are the players I'm talking about.

KDR is a fairly meaningless statistic unless this is a 1v1 game; those whom have been doing what I just posted will see a large discrepancy between their KDRs and W/L ratios. Perhaps even a KDR over 2 with a W/L of less than 1. I wish they'd track match score instead of KDR to better show usefulness in a match.

For reference (if it matters) my W/L is 1.6 with a 2.7 KDR, involving about equal parts of both pugging and playing as part of a casual group. As to one of the OP's questions, my W/L has been pretty consistent even prior to my archived stats.

Edited by Divine Retribution, 28 January 2015 - 12:56 AM.