44 replies to this topic

[XtremWarrior]

Alistair Winter, on 28 January 2015 - 12:27 AM, said:

No, I don't think it's laziness. After all, people enjoy some things as a casual pasttime, while dedicating themselves fully to other things. I enjoy drawing, but I don't practice two hours every day. It's not because I'm lazy, I don't think. It's more because drawing is something I do to relax and get away from it all.

One might marvel at how humans, coming from primitive hunter-gatherer tribes, will develop so many unique interests. Some people are fascinated by airplanes, others by cooking, or horse-back riding or astronomy or make-up or statistics or medicine or poetry. It's almost like some people were meant to be MechWarriors, as if it were their destiny, but the only way they can fulfill their potential is to play computer games.

Especially when you watch a game like Star Citizen, and millions of people around the world who want to go live in that virtual world of exploration, space combat and interstellar trade, I can't help but feel that those people were born in the wrong era. They feel more at home in that future world than the present. The beautiful Star Citizen trailer starts with the words "Imagine... that you could be whoever you wanted to be." And it feels like some people were destined to win the Murray cup. For whatever reason, evolution gave them the perfect set of abilities to win a race in space.

But then, if you look at someone participating in a beauty pageant, are they really fulfilling their potential as human beings? Was that really their destiny? Are they simply more dedicated, while people who don't dedicate their lives to the same kind of ideal are lazy? I'm not sure. When I look at people who devote their lives to looking like dolls, I can't help but feel like their aspirations are misguided and unhealthy. In this case, the romantic idea that it was their destiny doesn't sit right with me.

At the end of the day, perhaps it's just a bunch of random mutations in our DNA that decide whether we want to win a hot-dog eating contest or be a doctor. And we're just sort of along for the ride.

The only thing I can say for certain is that the Quickdraw is a terrible mech, but I feel tempted to buy it after reading this thread.

Too much philosphy in this post: you should be a Kurita fellow (they're the ones still using Bushido in 3050)!

Just wanted to say that you can totally compare sports and video-games. Just think about Chess. Yeah, you don't have to do 100 push ups and run 20 miles everyday to be a pro player, but the amount of work needed to achieve a high nationnal rank is exactly as insane as what is needed in any sports.
It's just different aptitudes but the spirit is the same.

[The Wakelord]

Mister Blastman, on 27 January 2015 - 10:08 PM, said:

If your KDR is 1.3 then you have a loooooooooooooooooooong way to go towards improving. I don't think you have come close to maximizing how good you can play in that 'mech.

1) KDR is dumb - final shot means nothing. If it tracked by most damage, or solo kills, then it might
2) He said he is going with his particular playstyle. That playstyle may be quite anti-meta, like boating 2 SSRM2 and 10 tonnes of ammo.

[Lily from animove]

depends on the mech and the matches.

if you play in a preste group, k/d will rise because you may win more often and survive more often than in pug games.

second factor is the mech itself, some mechs have just a maximum potential that you hardly can exceed without much luck. while other mechs have a way higher potential. Especially your mechs survivability is an important factor in bringing your k/d up. the more often you survive at the end of a match, the higher you cna push it. squishy mediums are then less good choices over some xtreme dodging lights or quite nimble but tanky heavies.

also its the job role of a mech, if you drive a smaller support mech, you make less kills, which also affects k/d to not skyrocket. (but thats not the case in a quickdraw, since its not a support mech like KFX may be).

Also, if you want to improve your k/d and W/l you have to subordinate yourself to the meta. But this is going to be boring unless you drain the majority of your fun from winning. And some digital numbers are truly not worth that sacrifice in fun.

Edited by Lily from animove, 28 January 2015 - 02:37 AM.

[Bleary]

It's a lot easier to do damage than get kills when skirmishing in a Quickdraw. I wouldn't consider KDR paramount. W/L is rather deceptive -and a difficult stat to consistently improve- as well, because of course you're being moved around in the ELO brackets to bring you closer to 1:1.

If you want to concentrate on improving stats that actually reflect your skill in the game, look at ones like your hit/miss percentage. Try to take fewer errant shots. Try to get better at carefully aiming and not rushing your trigger.

And look at what your damage percentage is when you die. I suppose you could even record and log your percentages if you want. If you die with more than 60% your health remaining, look at why: were you legged; should you be spending less time jumping under fire? Did you let someone get behind you? Did you fail to resist the urge to poke and eat double gauss to the chin? Were you too eager to get another shot off and fail to twist? These are behaviors to remind yourself of the next time you catch yourself doing them.

Edited by Bleary, 28 January 2015 - 03:24 AM.

[Joseph Mallan]

DaZur, on 27 January 2015 - 09:58 PM, said:

Okay... I've got this pretty little Quickdraw -5K that I've effectively honed into the optimum non-meta mech that fits my quirky play style.

I've thus far invested 68+ hours into it and have slowly been amassing a respectable 1.20 W/L ratio and again a respectable 1.30 KDR...

Here's the thing... I think I've hit the proverbial "glass ceiling" with this particular mech, in it's existing configuration, within the constraints of my play style.

In short... no matter what I do, how I play or when i play, 1.30 +/- in either ratio is the highest I've ever been able to achieve in many-many hours of play.

What I think is happening is once I begin to eek above 1.30, my Elo begins to fit me into matches where both players as well as mechs / mech configurations represent either player skill levels and or mech designs that ultimately mitigate even my best efforts in the Quickdraw.

I.e... No matter how spectacular a pilot I am in this mech, 1.30 is the apex potential of this mech, piloted by me.

Anyone else run into this? Thoughts?... discuss.

You Plateaued, or the opponents are learning. I'm pretty Pragmatic, when I hit the wall, I know its time for me to try some new tricks or accept my limits. So far, I haven't accepted to many limits.

[Mister Blastman]

The Wakelord, on 28 January 2015 - 01:39 AM, said:

1) KDR is dumb - final shot means nothing. If it tracked by most damage, or solo kills, then it might
2) He said he is going with his particular playstyle. That playstyle may be quite anti-meta, like boating 2 SSRM2 and 10 tonnes of ammo.

KDR is not dumb at all. KDR combined with win/loss is very telling. If you have a higher KDR plus a higher win/loss (significant say at 60% or better) in the solo queue, it is very telling.

KDR is and has always been an excellent measure as to your individual performance. Win/loss tells you if those kills mean something.

[KodiakGW]

Mister Blastman, on 28 January 2015 - 04:03 AM, said:

KDR is not dumb at all. KDR combined with win/loss is very telling.

In any other game, I would agree. In this game, no. OP - If you haven't already read, Elo/Matchmaker (MM) in this game creates what it thinks are "winning" and "losing" teams. If you win and are on the "winning" team, your Elo remains the same. If you lose and you are on the "winning" team, your Elo drops. ETC, ETC

One side effect of this MM structure it that, by definition of chance, you have a tendency to reach even W/L ratio. If you are on the positive side of that, cudos to you.

As for K/D, just look at the behavior from this past tournament. I've had to pull my kill shots so many times to not core the player who runs in to hug a near dead enemy so they can secure the kill. It's not the best way to judge your talents. I usually run between a 1.4 and 1.6 K/D ratio. It fluctuates depending whether or not I'm trying to level a crap mech through Basic so I can unlock the next levels on the best variant (or freebie one). And, Mister Blastman can confirm I see him in PUG drops on a fairly regular basis, so I know my Elo is on par with him.

The best way to judge your talents in PUG queues is by two stats at the end of the game. Match Score, and Damage (DMG). If you are consistently one of the of the top 4 in both of those, then you are doing well. You really need to check at the end of the match. Match score is not tracked, and damage average for that chassis is not completely viable. You can do less than 300 points of damage in a "losing" team round, and still do more damage than 4-6 teammates combined. That will throw off all those times you do 650 - 800 damage, which is well above average.

If you want a higher K/D or W/L, then you need to join a team that you work well with. There is nothing more fun than that, I can tell you. I had tons of fun running Hunchback Death Squads in the early years of this game. Either that, or start praying to the gods of luck to have Elo/MM put you on the "winning" team all the time. Ask Mister who he prays to. ;-)

[Mawai]

Interesting opinions on what makes a good player but I have a question.

Common theme: Win more than you lose.

As long as your skill keeps increasing then this is possible ... but there often comes a time when you can't find things to do better. At this point your Elo will cap and your win-loss will trend to 1.0. It has nothing to do with the matchmaker, it has to do with statistics. If you have two teams of 12 equally skilled players then the game will go to either side with about equal odds.

A statistic that folks should look at is not your overall W/L but a running average of W/L over the last 30 games (some statistically significant sample). This would require more data than we have now but would be a better indicator of your evolving skill.

Also, W/L is also affected by your skills with a mech. Often when starting a new mech you will have more losses than wins since you don't have the skills or experience with that mech yet.

I find KDR a bit more difficult to assess as an indicator of skill or effectiveness. Many folks when trying to get a high KDR start using tactics that can specifically improve KDR (not everyone).

- hang back and let others push first
- snipe
- choose a high alpha weapon load out
- "go for the kill"
- if the game is lost ... hide
- play assault or conquest so that you are more likely to survive even in a loss.
- don't take too many risks
- play conservatively
- assault mechs (and some heavies) can be good for this with their typically high alpha and survivability (Timberwolf might actually be among the best to get a high KDR).

KDR has two components ... Kills and Deaths. Maximize kills and minimize deaths for a high KDR ... which usually means adjusting play style to achieve this goal. I have seen some Raven-3L players that should have really good KDR. They snipe, particularly against damaged targets ... use ECM to cover their movements and to hide when needed. Luckily, taking out damaged targets is also a high priority for the team if they want to win ... so their W/L is probably not bad despite the tactics aimed to maximze KDR.

All that said, A KDR of 3.0 is probably achievable with a mech with a good loadout. KDR of 3.0 basically requires 3 kills every 2 matches ... assuming that you have a W/L of 1.0 and die every second match.

[Koniks]

Quote

The Wakelord, on 28 January 2015 - 01:39 AM, said:

1) KDR is dumb - final shot means nothing. If it tracked by most damage, or solo kills, then it might
2) He said he is going with his particular playstyle. That playstyle may be quite anti-meta, like boating 2 SSRM2 and 10 tonnes of ammo.

Mister Blastman, on 28 January 2015 - 04:03 AM, said:

KDR is not dumb at all. KDR combined with win/loss is very telling. If you have a higher KDR plus a higher win/loss (significant say at 60% or better) in the solo queue, it is very telling.

KDR is and has always been an excellent measure as to your individual performance. Win/loss tells you if those kills mean something.

I'd add that Wakelord only thinks KDR is dumb because he's focused on the kills part. The denominator has a bigger impact on the ratio. Players with high KDRs tend to live more often than low KDR players, regardless of whether they're also getting significantly more kills. The stat isn't kills per match.

He's also focused on whether the OP is taking non-optimal loadouts compared to the meta. While an inefficient loadout or choosing a high-risk playstyle may be at fault--like brawling with the 5K rather than using it as a PPCtart--ultimately it's a matter of skill.

Either a player figures out how to get into optimal position for the terrain and teams' movement, choose the right time to engage for their mech and the game situation, and then trade damage effectively, or they don't.

Elo's not really the issue. Though obviously, if you're dropping against competitive players, mistakes are going to be punished swifter and harder than against lesser opponents.

Edited by Mizeur, 28 January 2015 - 06:42 AM.

[Mister Blastman]

KodiakGW, on 28 January 2015 - 05:46 AM, said:

If you want a higher K/D or W/L, then you need to join a team that you work well with. There is nothing more fun than that, I can tell you. I had tons of fun running Hunchback Death Squads in the early years of this game. Either that, or start praying to the gods of luck to have Elo/MM put you on the "winning" team all the time. Ask Mister who he prays to. ;-)

Other than Jesus, I make my own luck, thank you very much. You are really telling him a disservice by saying, "Your KDR is fine, if you want it to be better then you need to join a unit."

Because that is blatantly wrong. There is a great degree of luck who you spawn with in solo drops but you CAN influence and carry in pug drops making a dramatic difference. So much so you can propel your win ratio upwards of 60+%, completely defying the matchmaker and in the process your KDR will go higher, too.

[Ultimax]

KodiakGW, on 28 January 2015 - 05:46 AM, said:

In any other game, I would agree. In this game, no. OP - If you haven't already read, Elo/Matchmaker (MM) in this game creates what it thinks are "winning" and "losing" teams. If you win and are on the "winning" team, your Elo remains the same. If you lose and you are on the "winning" team, your Elo drops. ETC, ETC

This isn't a Greek Tragedy, the MM does not create your fate.

It puts two teams together, tries to make them even and makes a prediction on which is likely to win or lose.



If you feel you have absolutely zero outcome on the result of the match, then you haven't been making decisions or plays that help push your team to victory.



It's that mindset that sees PLAYERS do dumb things, like hide in one spot and hope the match wins itself or bust out the LRMs for every single challenge match ever hoping their team will win the game while they farm assists and "support".



You (and all of us), have agency in this game and the sooner people realize that, the sooner they will contribute to achieving victory.

Edited by Ultimatum X, 28 January 2015 - 10:15 AM.

[LordKnightFandragon]

Mister Blastman, on 27 January 2015 - 10:18 PM, said:

Absolutely. When you start reaching 3.0+ KDR and break 60 - 62% win/loss ratio in PUG queue alone in a particular 'mech--well, at that point you're starting to rock n' roll in it. Get to 5+ and you're killing it.

Remember, your KDR in PUG queue is gonna be a fair bit lower than if you play with groups (good ones) but 3.0 is definitely within reasonable reach solo.

Holy dear god, how does one get to 3? ****, im still stuck at less then 50%......holy hell.......

Only game ever where I cannot manage to get above a 1KDR and 1WL.....I wont doubt my PC barely being able to run the game isnt helping my cause...

[KodiakGW]

Ultimatum X, on 28 January 2015 - 10:14 AM, said:

If you feel you have absolutely zero outcome on the result of the match, then you haven't been making decisions or plays that help push your team to victory.

I don't feel that I have zero outcome. Evidently you haven't been paying attention when you drop in the same game where I'm the one flanking and spotting mechs, alone, getting lots of XP for spot assists.

Ultimatum X, on 28 January 2015 - 10:14 AM, said:

like hide in one spot and hope the match wins itself

What usually the rest of the team is doing when I'm the only one flanking.

Ultimatum X, on 28 January 2015 - 10:14 AM, said:

You (and all of us), have agency in this game and the sooner people realize that, the sooner they will contribute to achieving victory.

I do, and have 185 screen shots where I have done more damage than 4-6 players combined. Top 4 damage for the team. Wins and losses.

What I'm trying to tell the OP is not to be disheartened by your W/L or K/D ratio not being 3 or higher. If your are getting in the top four damage and match score consistently, then you are doing well. After all, I did say "One side effect of this MM structure it that, by definition of chance, you have a tendency to reach even W/L ratio. If you are on the positive side of that, cudos to you." Something you must have missed to take a personal slam at me.

Edited by KodiakGW, 28 January 2015 - 10:45 AM.

[Zippitt]

You are going to get mixed answers, but it's hard to argue that the better all your stats get, the better you likely are. The biggest thing to remember however, is this is a team game, team contribution can come in various forms, some of which don't reward you near as well and don't show up in an metrics you would see. A better team with better contributions tends to win, so it's probably why there is so much emphasis on the W/L ratio with ELO.

This game is not about trading damage as much as doing it when it cannot be returned. Positioning is key for you and your team. If you want to get better focus on that first, anything more than that, practice, practice, and more practice.

Edited by Zippitt, 28 January 2015 - 10:49 AM.

[blood4blood]

This thread made me look to see if I had any chassis with a 3.0 or better K/D. I didn't think I would, but I found one: LOCUST LCT-3M 10 7 3 2.33 8 2 4.00 1,971 19,613 01:15:57

Yeah, 4.0 in a Locust 3M. That's right. I don't know if I should laugh or cry about the Locust being my best killing machine...

[PurpleNinja]

Mister Blastman, on 28 January 2015 - 04:03 AM, said:

KDR is not dumb at all. KDR combined with win/loss is very telling. If you have a higher KDR plus a higher win/loss (significant say at 60% or better) in the solo queue, it is very telling.

KDR is and has always been an excellent measure as to your individual performance. Win/loss tells you if those kills mean something.

Sure, because comparing someone who pilot a non optimal Quickdraw for fun with that one guy who pilot a perfect balanced Stormcrow is perfectly fair.

You should keep in mind that some people (rare indeed) play just for fun. If everyone were here for competition, we wouldn't see LCTs on the battlefield.

[terrycloth]

Yeah, if there isn't a challenge on I rotate through all my mechs, which includes a bunch that aren't really competitive.

Not that I'm a good player. I'm generally trying to be 'not bad'. I've got a problem with tunnel vision and failing to accurately predict the actions of teammates and enemies, which way too often ends up with me being the idiot out in the middle of nowhere surrounded by the entire enemy team. Sometimes I get the urge to blame my teammates for not supporting me, but it's not like I told them what I was doing. How dare they not read my mind?!

I think that's why I like the Bog and the Mining Collective. Sight lines are short and you can recover from that sort of thing easier.

[Roadkill]

Mister Blastman, on 27 January 2015 - 10:08 PM, said:

If your KDR is 1.3 then you have a loooooooooooooooooooong way to go towards improving. I don't think you have come close to maximizing how good you can play in that 'mech.

Not at all. KDR is not a good representation of overall skill. It dramatically over-represents some play styles while under-representing others. It also tends to favor heavier Mechs over lighter Mechs.

Just as one of many possible examples, between two equally skilled pilots a brawler will almost always have a lower KDR than a sniper.

It's a terrible metric to use for judging skill.

[Deathlike]

627, on 27 January 2015 - 11:15 PM, said:

That won't help for Pug play, though. just watch a generic "competitive" game between two teams and watch one of your everyday pug games. It is like a whole different game.

And on a side note, I never saw a quickdraw in a comp match

Sometimes you just have to admit to yourself that you aren't as skilled at this game as the top players and you could train like an idiot and wouldn't reach the same level. This is a hard truth and I don't say that easy or to demotivate anyone, but you have to stay realistic or it will break you.

That said, before we talk about builds or so, first thing should be to define a good player. What is needed to achieve a K/D of 3 in PUG?
Aim?
Movement?
Ping and Meta?

What are the basics?

It's simple, yet complicated. I'll just explain it in 3 sections... (I'm too lazy to think of more and I'd rather just keep it simple).

1) Situational awareness - If you are complaining about LRMs dropping onto you... then you are probably lacking in it (or at least with respect to LRMs). There are really simple rules of accomplishing this... one which involves CHECKING FOR UAVs by looking up... especially if you are in an ECM mech. Of course, if you are a good teammate with ECM, you'd bring it around to share it with others but also be responsible for making sure UAVs aren't a factor. Of course... if the ECM carrier is nowhere to be found (trying to snipe as a Raven-3L instead of helping people around on Caustic, or you are not around the influence of ECM when moving in a certain direction) then you are doing a disservice to the team.

It's not limited to LRMs, but just understanding what is happening to you is important. Anyone in a Timberwolf or mass laser vomit complaining about PPC fire clearly does not understand how and when to engage. So, you have to play the situation properly to counter correctly.

2) Aggression over timidity - One of the things that tends to dictate success or failure is simply the act of cowering or not cowering. It's been said since open beta (and possibly even before that). While taking a good defensive position helps, but that's usually not the most aggressive option... the normal player in this game is more likely to fear a double team just as CREATING the double team to kill a target is what people like to do.

Even that simple basic concept is lost on people... even two below average players is just working on the same average player... the below average players can win... unless they have severe deficiencies (aiming LRMs < 180m, PPCs < 90m, or just a terrible loadout). The thing is that strength in numbers is very powerful psychologically for many players. Once you get over "panicing", then this becomes less of an issue. Even good teams/player get roflstomped when the opposing team executes a proper tactic or just group effort... so it tends to matter how effect you are at executing a plan better or more effectively than the opfor... even if it isn't the best plan (like NASCAR on all maps).

While I think Mordor is a terrible place to rush into the middle... people that fail even do that initially will usually get punished for it. The game really rewards aggression (as long as it's not dumb aggression), and failure to work as a team is usually punished swiftly (or slowly, depending on how much focus fire is involved).


3) Aim - You will have to figure that out on your own... sometimes you may need some visual tricks or methods to get yourself to get the aim you need to get... but that primarily involves positioning... which requires understanding of the map. There's a reason why those entrances in Mordor are killzones and standing there for extended periods does nothing but hurt you.

If you recognize the main killzones and realize the time to use it to your advantage... then sometimes aim isn't as important... as it becomes more "fish in a barrel". Aim still involves the best positioning practices... like making the most of the H9 hill @ Alpine... poor positioning allows that place to be overrun despite being a position of strength.

When you see the good players make the most of certain positions and areas... it's probably because it's useful for what they need accomplished. It doesn't mean you should camp there indefinitely, but it's good to be there when the situations warrants it.

Anyways... it's not that hard to get better.. but it's just hard to remember there is a lot of things involved into getting better instead of "mindless shooting and moving". That's part of the problem many players have when it comes to "getting better". It translates better in FPSes, but it's more apparent for this game than many others.

[Divine Retribution]

LordKnightFandragon, on 28 January 2015 - 10:38 AM, said:

I wont doubt my PC barely being able to run the game isnt helping my cause...

I know that pain all too well. It does have an effect on performance as there is only so much you can do to compensate.