250 replies to this topic

[Mystere]

oldradagast, on 02 February 2015 - 06:56 PM, said:

The point of an optional matchmaker is to allow people to ease into CW with reasonable battles. Once you're good enough, you can move on from that into more interesting battles with better foes and better rewards, but the optional matchmaker still exists for the NEXT round of new players.

I think your position, and how people respond to it and you, will be better served by responding directly to this:

pwnface, on 02 February 2015 - 05:44 PM, said:

How would an optional matchmaker look in CW?

If I queue up to attack a clan planet with my 12man team, I'm waiting up to 10 minutes for a team of 12 to form to defend against our attack.

Assuming a 12man clan team defends our attack, we are matched up in what should be a relatively balanced match (in theory). This is good right?

With the way CW currently works, Clan defenders are spammed a notification window to defend. If 12 random defenders queue up for defense, we are matched up and a match begin shortly.

What would an optional matchmaker do here?

Should both teams need to wait a full 10 minutes because one or two players on the pug team have the optional matchmaker turned on? I don't think anyone wants to wait even longer for matches.

Should there be a completely separate CW queue for matchmaking on or matchmaking off? If this were the case BOTH teams wouldn't have a match. You'd have 24 players queued up for the same planet against each other and NEVER getting a match?

[oldradagast]

Mystere, on 02 February 2015 - 07:04 PM, said:

I think your position, and how people respond to it and you, will be better served by responding directly to this:

There's nothing to address there because he's making the fatal assumption that adding an optional matchmaker would split the current population without adding new players back in, which is an already disproven position, but I'll go over it again.

The risk of vastly increasing wait times by "splitting the population" is a strawman argument because it fails to address the fact that the people who are sick of rolls and other drek have already left CW. If they had a reason to play... say games other than pointless stomps... they'd come back, thus increasing the population.

To put it simply, let's say CW is a video game with only one difficulty mode - "hard"

Somebody suggests adding "normal' to the list of difficulty settings, but gets shouted down because "that would split the players." Except the people who want to play on "normal" difficulty are not currently playing on "hard" mode while hating it - they are NOT PLAYING!

Same thing here - nobody is sitting around playing CW matches while hating it and being tired of rolls. They already left - there's no risk of "splitting the population" because that chunk of the population is already gone; you can't "split" off something that no longer exists. And, quite frankly, unless something is done to bring those people back - such as the proposed ideas - I don't see how long CW will live on its own.

Edited by oldradagast, 02 February 2015 - 07:14 PM.

[Mystere]

oldradagast, on 02 February 2015 - 07:11 PM, said:

There's nothing to address there because he's making the fatal assumption that adding an optional matchmaker would split the current population without adding new players back in, which is an already disproven position, but I'll go over it again.

The risk of vastly increasing wait times by "splitting the population" is a strawman argument because it fails to address the fact that the people who are sick of rolls and other drek have already left CW. If they had a reason to play... say games other than pointless stomps... they'd come back, thus increasing the population.

To put it simply, let's say CW is a video game with only one difficulty mode - "hard"

Somebody suggests adding "normal' to the list of difficulty settings, but gets shouted down because "that would split the players." Except the people who want to play on "normal" difficulty are not currently playing on "hard" mode while hating it - they are NOT PLAYING!

Same thing here - nobody is sitting around playing CW matches while hating it and being tired of rolls. They already left - there's no risk of "splitting the population" because that chunk of the population is already gone; you can't "split" off something that no longer exists. And, quite frankly, unless something is done to bring those people back - such as the proposed ideas - I don't see how long CW will live on its own.

His line of questioning was very simple, which can be summarized as:

What should a matchmaker do when a 12-man team and a PUG group are waiting on the same planet?

Yet, you decided to go off on another direction. Are you surprised why people here treat you the way they do?

Edited by Mystere, 02 February 2015 - 07:25 PM.

[RG Notch]

Wow, I think so of the disconnect is that large groups get nearly instant drops and don't see how empty the queues are for solos and small groups. I asked in a match and unsurprisingly the large groups were snobbishly sure that CW is fine and that even though they claimed to not enjoy curb stomping they didn't seem to think it was a turnoff and that people were really just going to keep coming back for more beatings.
Now I understand why you can't put in a match maker (lol optional or not) and I honestly didn't mind dropping in CW at first as a pug, but now with not enough action to get into Faction only attacks or defense since it seems no one in the IS is fighting much and having to endure the mess that is the mixed groups on the Clan borders I'm running out of fun. It's been either ghost drops or curbstompings so far my last couple of days. I doubt the new changes will do much, as I don't believe VOIP is going to change the nature of PUG drops and I can't see more skirmish enticing a huge influx back. I fear that CW is going to be only for large groups and those who don't know it's for them or the few hard cases that can keep getting stomped over and over.
I don't have any ideas either I just know that my level of fun is dropping and the depressing attitudes of the large groups is making me hope it turns into a ghost town that they seem intent on making it. I get it's designed for groups and the solos have their queues, it just seems that their is no middle ground and I guess we'll see how many group focused players there are. It seems they will have to carry this mode. I guess I just thought that the groups who claim they aren't here to stomp PUGs would have a better attitude since this mode is supposed to be mostly for them. I guess they're confident they don't need any one else to succeed. Good luck with that.

[Yokaiko]

oldradagast, on 02 February 2015 - 03:53 PM, said:

Except 80%+ of the game's population is casual gamers, many of which PUG and solo. Just because there is no "need" to play a game a certain way doesn't mean it doesn't happen. Heck, from the viewpoint of the majority, there's no need to join a group, and from the viewpoint of life, there's no "need" to even play MWO.

Point being that expecting people to get ROFL-stomped repeatedly and respond to that with "Why, gee - I should join that group that just trash-talked me!" is laughable. That's not how humans work. If you present them with a joke of a game mode that regularly coughs up one-sided matches decided at the team pairings, the people getting the short-end of the stick are going to leave that game mode - and possibly the game - not try really hard to join the people who just ran them over, often with poor sportsmanship.

And even if they DO join a team, what's the benefit? Oh, that's right - because of the lack of any match-making in CW, they can now "enjoy" stomping PUG's with a few decent, balanced fights through in now and then. Maybe that's "fun" if it's all about "winning," but for most folks, that gets dull fast.

So, we now have game mode that has zero appeal to 80% of the population AND limited appeal to some number from the remaining 20% who, even though they are in groups and can win CW matches, are very tired of utterly pointless battles that are decided at match pairings. That's not much of a business plan...

You do understand that stat is crap and when mentioned when no more than 4 players could queue...OH and it was number of drops NOT players, that is a significant difference. Look around man, in the pub queue something like 75% of the people dropping have unit tags. You think they are the hardcore solo set? I frigging doubt it.

So please, stop repeating that tripe.

[wanderer]

I'll say it again.

PUGs don't belong in large numbers in 12-man-style CW. Not at all. Far, far too often the only role they play is "fodder" once you get past 4 or so per team.

CW needs smaller-scaled content. It is the only place where an all-PUG "team" won't suffer a crippling disadvantage. It's not even a matter of "LOL WE LOVE TO STOMP DEM PUGS".

They're literally piling up in the way of the Clans, begging to be farmed. CW is not designed for large numbers of unorganized forces at this point- part of why Marik does so well is they refuse to even let "PUGs" stay disorganized for long and push them into effectively ad-hoc organized groups on VOIP. If anything, I'd say that's why Marik retains so many players at this point, too. The only real solution will be getting the PUG queue it's own part in CW that keeps it almost distinct (again, the 12-man queue functions with limited amounts of PUG filler better than without, but only in very small doses) but still meaningful.z

I like CW. It is -not- designed for PUG/solo play, other than allowing for said solos to fill in the gaps in a large group. If CW 12-man queues allowed for a minimum of 2x4 grouped + 4 PUG/soloers to fill a given queue, thereby at least leaving SOME modicum of organization - that is, only allowing a maximum of 4 PUGs per group in whatever combination - we might see less insanity in the ranks.

[Karpundir]

Referencing my post in another thread, since it is relevant to this thread. There are some solid suggestions for solo players in that post, so please take a moment to read them.

[Yokaiko]

wanderer, on 02 February 2015 - 10:57 PM, said:

They're literally piling up in the way of the Clans, begging to be farmed. CW is not designed for large numbers of unorganized forces at this point- part of why Marik does so well is they refuse to even let "PUGs" stay disorganized for long and push them into effectively ad-hoc organized groups on VOIP. If anything, I'd say that's why Marik retains so many players at this point, too. The only real solution will be getting the PUG queue it's own part in CW that keeps it almost distinct (again, the 12-man queue functions with limited amounts of PUG filler better than without, but only in very small doses) but still meaningful.z

Yeah, and that has NOTHING to do with most of the Kurita units ignoring the clan border to hit Davion.....nope.

As a point of order just Saturday out of 5 games I played 4 were 8 man or better, three of those were bigger than our group only one was a true pug on the other side.

wanderer, on 02 February 2015 - 10:57 PM, said:

I like CW. It is -not- designed for PUG/solo play, other than allowing for said solos to fill in the gaps in a large group. If CW 12-man queues allowed for a minimum of 2x4 grouped + 4 PUG/soloers to fill a given queue, thereby at least leaving SOME modicum of organization - that is, only allowing a maximum of 4 PUGs per group in whatever combination - we might see less insanity in the ranks.

How about no. Now we have to break into splinters AGAIN because of your arbitrary critical mass level. **** no, let the groups play together. Hell I campaigned to let solos join form a team and go into the group queue in pub games because the level of play is higher.


Say it with me:

"There is nothing wrong with playing as a team in a team based competitive shooter"
"Amen"

[Deathlike]

TBH, I want to hear how you can build a "skill based MM" into CW.

It's difficult to build considering the following..

1) How Teams Are Formed - Since it "appears" to work in a "First Come, First Served" basis, the wait for the players necessary (on both ends) are somewhat long at times. It could be as quick as "instantly" (you are the "perfect fit" into the current queue) or as long as the proverbial 10 minutes for a Ghost Drop (waiting on the previous group). It could be worse if people (on the opfor) aren't even bothering to show up and you have nothing to gain anymore...

2) Time - How much time would you want to wait for a match to be started? This is a serious question that has serious consequences. The faster it is, it's probably going to have a skill mismatch. The slower it is, the less likely people are going to queue for that planet. This is self-evident in the non-CW queues and there will always be someone screwed in such a compromise.

3) Goal - Right now, there isn't really a "goal" in CW outside of getting planets/territory yet they currently have no meaningful value outside of bragging rights. There's no benefit to attacking a planet unless "you have no other options" and there's also no assurance that other planets defensive queues need to be filled (depending on your faction). How are you going to influence these things w/o pulling resources elsewhere? Say a planet your faction owns is being attacked heavily... you'll like see people pull from attacks to make sure that planet is secured.. but that does't mean it'll force a counter-attack on a particular faction's planet. You cannot convince people to go or NOT go to a planet. When you can't put together even the basic 12, you're not going to get any sort of CW match in the first place!

In essence, I really want a breakdown of a "skill-based MM" (optional or required) that addresses the key problems in the system. Don't even talk about the modes themselves (it's a vastly different discussion that would need to be had). I'm just talking about "putting a team together".

Edited by Deathlike, 03 February 2015 - 12:37 AM.

[Joseph Mallan]

The Match Maker doesn't give fair and balanced fights in PUG, Why would it work in CW?

Edited by Joseph Mallan, 03 February 2015 - 04:06 AM.

[oldradagast]

Joseph Mallan, on 03 February 2015 - 04:05 AM, said:

The Match Maker doesn't give fair and balanced fights in PUG, Why would it work in CW?

Rolls just need to be reduced - nothing can prevent them entirely. Keep the following in mind:

1) Any system that tries to take skill into account by definition produces fewer rolls than ones that don't, such as what we see in CW. For example, in the Public queue, it is impossible for 12 random PUG's to be rolled by a large team. Why? Because random, ungrouped PUG's are not pitted against teams in the public queue. I don't see how anyone can say leaving the PUG rolling in is "better" - it makes for dull games on both sides.

2) Even if a roll does happen in the Public queue, it's over in 5 minutes. It doesn't drag out to 15+ minutes - not counting the extra long CW wait times - for the inevitable conclusion to be reached. Rolls are bad, but rolls that waste a lot of time when everyone already knows how they will end are far worse.

3) People who keep saying a matchmaker will "split the CW population and make it take longer to get a game" are missing a key point. The people who would benefit from a matchmaker are NOT PLAYING CW ANYMORE. They already left because they got sick of the rolls. There's no danger of "splitting them from the population" because they aren't here anymore - you can't split what doesn't exist.

Add a matchmaker in and give them some reason to play other than to get rolled, and they'd have a reason to come back.

Perhaps an analogy will help. If you have a town that's 80% vegetarian, but you decided to open a BBQ joint with no vegetarian options, business will be "strangely" low. If somebody suggests adding vegetarian options to the menu while you still have the resources to make changes and try to save the business, denying that request with "it will split our customer base" makes no sense... because 80% of the population has already decided to not eat at your restaurant because they clearly are not welcome there. Add something to the menu that might interest them, and you'd suddenly have more customers. Same idea applies to CW - for most of the MWO community, there's just no reason to play currently. Either change the "menu," or watch it go out of business.

Edited by oldradagast, 03 February 2015 - 04:31 AM.

[Joseph Mallan]

oldradagast, on 03 February 2015 - 04:29 AM, said:

Rolls just need to be reduced - nothing can prevent them entirely. Keep the following in mind:

1) Any system that tries to take skill into account by definition produces fewer rolls than ones that don't, such as what we see in CW. For example, in the Public queue, it is impossible for 12 random PUG's to be rolled by a large team. Why? Because random, ungrouped PUG's are not pitted against teams in the public queue. I don't see how anyone can say leaving the PUG rolling in is "better" - it makes for dull games on both sides.

2) Even if a roll does happen in the Public queue, it's over in 5 minutes. It doesn't drag out to 15+ minutes - not counting the extra long CW wait times - for the inevitable conclusion to be reached. Rolls are bad, but rolls that waste a lot of time when everyone already knows how they will end are far worse.

3) People who keep saying a matchmaker will "split the CW population and make it take longer to get a game" are missing a key point. The people who would benefit from a matchmaker are NOT PLAYING CW ANYMORE. They already left because they got sick of the rolls. There's no danger of "splitting them from the population" because they aren't here anymore - you can't split what doesn't exist.

Add a matchmaker in and give them some reason to play other than to get rolled, and they'd have a reason to come back.

Perhaps an analogy will help. If you have a town that's 80% vegetarian, but you decided to open a BBQ joint with no vegetarian options, business will be "strangely" low. If somebody suggests adding vegetarian options to the menu while you still have the resources to make changes and try to save the business, denying that request with "it will split our customer base" makes no sense... because 80% of the population has already decided to not eat at your restaurant because they clearly are not welcome there. Add something to the menu that might interest them, and you'd suddenly have more customers. Same idea applies to CW - for most of the MWO community, there's just no reason to play currently. Either change the "menu," or watch it go out of business.

1) False. It is Unlikely but not impossible. Mariks have Proven this.

2) That isn't due to the role its due to the lack of respawn. Not a good indication.

3) The Match Maker would not reduce how fast I get rolled in CW. You are making a mistake in judgement. MM Does not reduce how hard we are rolled. Even if it perfectly matched skills.

IF CW has 2 Ques with a small amount of players in each has it gotten better?

See you don't get it. Those who left CW due to getting rolled will leave the new PUG friendly Que cause they are still getting rolled.

Edited by Joseph Mallan, 03 February 2015 - 05:08 AM.

[Deathlike]

For referencing any sort of skill-based MM... have those non-CW complaints threads gone away?

Seeing the poor play in the solo queue consistently (and there's still plenty of it in the group queue), I think there are some people are the skewed on the notion of "what is hard" (and occasionally thinking the solo queue is better than the group queue, which is a laughable thing to say just as well).

The whole point of the separating the queues in non-CW matches is to "try" to train people to get off certain "crutches" like the difficult level of play, or "2-mans vs 12-mans" or even "bad builds" vs quality/"meta" buiids (and so many other variations). It's supposed to be a "training ground" for CW.

Once you try to not understand why it is necessary to do all of this then the difficulty of CW becomes a more difficult proposition for the average player. The game in some ways is supposed to create a more mentally tougher player as each different level of challenge is not impossible to beat... it requires a high level effort to be consistently successful. The problem is that it is not facilitated on PGI's end as there are no proper tools (commo rose, tutorials) to even get the simplest of basics accomplished, thus making the journey infinitely harder than it should be.

The majority of people that stick around MWO tend to be more mentally tougher than most, but also having the occasional skewed view of balance, economy, and judgement of difficulty. While this may sound too simplified, it honestly shows the kind of work and effort that many of them have put into being a decent contributor... but also how it requires a serious investment in this game (time, money, effort) to get where they are now.

Edited by Deathlike, 03 February 2015 - 07:59 AM.

[InspectorG]

Yokaiko, on 02 February 2015 - 11:05 PM, said:

Say it with me:

"There is nothing wrong with playing as a team in a team based competitive shooter"
"Amen"

But, but i wanna be different. I wanna be in a big winning comp team but i dont want to have to:
Practice with my team 6 hours a week.
Memorize maps.
Build my loadouts according to the rest of my team.
Spam ghost drops to WIN planets.
Get TeamSpeak and have to talk to people.
Have people better than me critique my lack of skills.
Get rid of all my LRM boats.

I just want to have a 50/50 chance of beating those guys who do all the above. Me and my 11 random teammates who dont even talk to me.

Surely there is a phone app that can make all that work that organized 12mans do and make it easy and accessible for us solos.

If PGI doesnt fix this, they suck.

[Almond Brown]

operatorZ, on 30 January 2015 - 09:27 AM, said:

There seems to be a disconnect in this conversation...I'll illustrate

One Side: "we have to have PUGS in CW to make it a viable game mode, the actions of teams in CW sometimes drive PUGS away. CW needs a more PUG friendly environment"

Other Side: "who will the whiney PUG's blame next for their losses after VOIP is installed"

......uuuuhhhuuuunn?

seems like we aren't even discussing the same topic or even living in the same universe.,.....

DISCLAIMER: I dont want split ques or elo in CW but I do agree that modes could be added to create a more PUG friendly environment or incentive's PUG use of CW...all without splitting ques or Elo

Modes are like split queues though. If they add a Mode that many PUG based players ONLY play, despite how it affects the CW over-all, and never play the "Planetary Conquest" mode, due to getting stomped, how long before those modes become irrelevant, or stomps happen in them and we end up back where we started, but with more than what CW was meant to be. A "Planetary Conquest" game mode.

Edited by Almond Brown, 03 February 2015 - 09:25 AM.

[Almond Brown]

Apnu, on 30 January 2015 - 10:17 AM, said:

Nobody "forced" teams out of the pub queue.

stuff

Moving Assault, Skirmish and Conquest as modes for CW would take us miles down that road.

So the Teams agreed to this then? If so, why did so many (reportedly) leave MWO after it happened? Yes, the whiners got PGI to fold to their noise. The same is happening again, but in reverse.

Adding more modes might be fine, but it will require that PUGS and Teams still not be matched up against each other. As noted, PUGS are just not up to the task 95% of the time and when they are allowed to be Matched up again, we then we get these silly discussions, again, after PGI already segregated the 2 populations. Apparently for their own good. For who's good is it this time that we once again split an already Community yet again?

Edited by Almond Brown, 03 February 2015 - 09:38 AM.

[Apnu]

Almond Brown, on 03 February 2015 - 09:33 AM, said:

So the Teams agreed to this then? If so, why did so many (reportedly) leave MWO after it happened? Yes, the whiners got PGI to fold to their noise. The same is happening again, but in reverse.

I know of only one team that left and they still come back from time to time. The splitting of the pub. queue wasn't that big of a deal.

Quote

Adding more modes might be fine, but it will require that PUGS and Teams still not be matched up against each other. As noted, PUGS are just not up to the task 95% of the time and then we get these silly discussions after PGI segregated the 2 populations, apparently for their own good.

Yes, keep them in different pools, just make matches that make PUGs happy relevant to the IS map. Why can't I find a PUG Skirmish game on a planet under attack (or defended) by my faction? Why not have that?

[Almond Brown]

Kilgorin Strom, on 30 January 2015 - 10:32 AM, said:

Ok, here's the problem with your thought processes: Comms only allow a team to speak with each other. It does not mean your team is adequately blaanced or that your "C.O." for that match is better than theirs.

There are times when you drop when you are doomed. The opponent just has the right kit, and you don't. It happens.

What will people blame losses on? Anything that makes them feel better about losing, because the art of using your mistakes to learn is not something many people posses. It could not be my fault, I'm peerless!

It'll be hit detection, cheese mechs, c-bills, maps, the servers, PGI themselves, VOIP is too distracting, and that QWERTY keyboards have latency issues. Heck they might blame it on the heat or cold.

Anything, really, that's what they'll blame their inability on, why? because they lack the predisposition to improve.

Well said. So first time around PGI shed the PUGS of Teams, ALL Teams. 12 man dried up like a popcorn fart in weeks. Now the PUGS want into the Team game, but not against "real Teams".

Where do the "real Teams fit in this whole mess. The PUGS got their way last time and looks to be they will win again. Why did PGI bother making a "real team" game mode only to look to be caving (soon^TM ) in to more of the same PUG noise.

We will see how Skirmish modes goes with 12 man real teams vs PUGs goes. One does not need a crystal ball to figure that one out, surely?

P.S. Mine is not a negative take, but a realistic one. PGI needs PUGS. Everyone else will deal with what they are provided. Let's hope it is not to one sided, again. Don't bet on VOIP as being a PUG savior either.

Edited by Almond Brown, 03 February 2015 - 09:46 AM.

[cranect]

I have see pugs beat groups in CW with only the chat box. It can be done. The problem is it requires people to listen to some random person. People dont like to do that. Either everyone thinks they know best or they think the self appointed drop caller has no clue what they are talking about. For instance I have tried several times to coordinate people with simple tactics on defense. These are really quite as simple as on sulfur meeting them by the gate so that they cannot just push in and wipe out 1/3 of your forces with no opposition. The times where people have agreed and listen to me or preferably whatever group is largest in the drop/someone else who would prefer to call the drop, the drops have either been wins or at least close losses. The times where people decide to let the enemy push in and we will meet them at the cannon are the times I have seen rolls. This isnt due to lack of communication or anything like that. This is due to people deciding not to listen even when someone tries to take command. Even if voice comms are put it this will still happen. If they were to implement seperate queues for groups and solo droppers something entirely different might happen but I would bet on the attackers going in and being able to get a foothold inside. On boreal this isnt as bad. On sulfur this means that the defenders just lost a good portion of their forces to spawn camping. The fact that there are seperate queues would not change this due to the fact that if people are not organized they will probably try to just do as much damage as they can. So in this case depending on the map there would still be a lot of rolls due to a lack of teamwork.

[InspectorG]

Only real 'solution' i would say is a 3 tiered system
.
Amateur
Semi-pro
Pro.

Have Pro matched weighted more than semi which is weighted more than Amateur.

BUT, im willing to bet the amateurs will quit because they are labelled 'amateur'.

Semi would likely make the bulk of the player base of veterans- those who use meta/tweak it a little, can cope with LRM, try to commuincate, and have a decent understanding of the game...but just dont have the resources needed to dedicate 6+ hours/week to CW.

Pro- this would be your Lords/Smoke Jags/mercstar/etc. let their matches carry more weight in determining a planet's fate.
PGI would have to keep them from Mercing the system.

Perhaps 3month minimum contracts with twice per year soft-map resets?
Or a combo of changing how planets are captured(i would prefer a % based system: pro win = 10 points, Semi=3, amateur=1)
Most points wins after the attack window(i would say 1 week for main planets, 4 days for tertiary ones)

I mean, you WANT to include everyone. but not everyone will fit the intended vision of CW: organized teams fighting long term war.
Solos and casuals want more of a Street Fighter2. Drop and fight, and go home when done.