250 replies to this topic

[AlphaToaster]

Great post Apnu. I respect your position.

[Bleary]

Every shooter everywhere has always resulted in sucky, unsatisfying matches (for both sides) when full organized teams are paired against random players. That's why PGI created the group queue in the first place. I have no idea why they thought the results would be different with a single Community Warfare queue.

If the teams want to avoid pointless stomps, well, they just gotta hope the defenders are an opposing team. Or they can try to fight over planets that are being contested by another team. If the solo players want to avoid pointless stomps, they simply don't play CW. Which is what we're seeing.

As long as there's no real reason to play CW, no one cares that much. But if they ever implement real faction rewards, I expect there will be a lot more pressure to created segregated CW content that the solo majority actually enjoy playing. Of course they already seem to be working on stuff that might help allow that (alternate 4v4 game modes and such) so I'm not too worried for the future.

Edited by Bleary, 30 January 2015 - 12:34 AM.

[Lily from animove]

N0MAD, on 29 January 2015 - 08:25 PM, said:

Good post brother.
Will only comment on the VOIP, useless for what people think it will do, any experienced gamer will just mute it moment its introduced just as we do in any game that supports it. If people think it will magically mean that pugs will co ordinate because Voip is here they will learn a lesson most experienced gamers already know, half the team wont use it the other half will be making a nuisance of themselfs on it. But in the end it wont hurt but i doubt it will help.
The thing that will help is a general chat where people can commun, form ties and integrate but PGI is afraid of the community coming together.

and what? no one who deactivates it has any right to complain anymore, is an active decision to deactivate it and so to accept the downsides of that. Big groups will still use it to make sure the Puggers they get thrown together will be able to hear them.

[Joseph Mallan]

Apnu, on 29 January 2015 - 02:13 PM, said:

Its not that alone, but its part of it. Its the same problem we had before Elo, before we had the team queue. When 12-mans were stomping PUGs. CW's Invasion mode is that again. With an added bonus of a team not being found so one side gets an auto win. There is no Elo, there's nothing to balance it.

Listening to chatter about CW in PUGland it becomes clear. There's a lot of players, paying players mind you, that aren't part of a 12-man and want to affect the IS map in CW, but cant because the current iteration of the only one game type in CW stacks the deck towards 12 man comp. teams.

But as CW is for team effort those PUGS can form a 12 man and start doing what the present 12 man teams did to be able to stomp PUGs. Practice, study the game, refine weapon loadout, Practice.

Comms will help a little but as long as PUGs refuse to put in the effort we will never win against 12 man teams. They earned the right to stomp those who go into the the Nightmare Que alone. Many of us know what we are going into in CW and then complain when it is handed to us.

I PUG a lot. The CW Que is exactly what I thought it would be, rough. I don't want it watered down.

[N0MAD]

Lily from animove, on 30 January 2015 - 02:16 AM, said:

and what? no one who deactivates it has any right to complain anymore, is an active decision to deactivate it and so to accept the downsides of that. Big groups will still use it to make sure the Puggers they get thrown together will be able to hear them.

Big groups use TS or whatever, because thats what they always use, they dont dump their own coms for Voip.
But ya anyone that turns it off has no right to complain that there is no coms, but IMO it will be the % of people using Voip complaining, the rest of the team will be on their own coms even if its 2 or 3 different coms for each of the small teams making up the 12 team.
Look im your typical small group player/pug, small long term team mates, own our TS, have for long time, do i need voip? no, will i use it? no, do i say its a bad thing? no, do i think it will fix the un organised nature of the pug group? no, and by the number of 2-3-4 man groups i see in game i say we are one of many if not the majority.
Not saying it shouldnt be implemented, just saying its not the fix some are thinking it will be.
Besides a big advantage of being on organised team coms is the ability to co ordinate before the game, because you know the people/playstyles etc, familarity.
Pugs coming together on coms when already in game has limited advantage, now if this pug group forms up mutually in a chat channel before game and then has voip well yes i can see it being a bigger advantage.

[N0MAD]

Joseph Mallan, on 30 January 2015 - 02:47 AM, said:

But as CW is for team effort those PUGS can form a 12 man and start doing what the present 12 man teams did to be able to stomp PUGs. Practice, study the game, refine weapon loadout, Practice.

Comms will help a little but as long as PUGs refuse to put in the effort we will never win against 12 man teams. They earned the right to stomp those who go into the the Nightmare Que alone. Many of us know what we are going into in CW and then complain when it is handed to us.

I PUG a lot. The CW Que is exactly what I thought it would be, rough. I don't want it watered down.

Sailor you are missing the big picture here, fine the organised groups deserve to win, but others dont want to practice study yada yada yada, and you should by this stage see that without these people there just isnt the pop to sustain CW.
Tell them 100 times a million times but 30 years of gaming should tell you that only a % of players will group into large teams, and you telling them (pugs/small groups) time after time will not change it other wise after all these decades everyone playing games would be in big groups right? well are they?
Do you think that there is enough organised big groups in MWO to sustain CW?

[Tumbling Dice]

Lily from animove, on 29 January 2015 - 08:21 AM, said:

Pugs need to stop pugging.

seriously, after PGI made grouping factionwide there is no reason to not downlaod teamspeak or any other used Voip, and at leats join it to be able to listen to a leaders orders. You don't need a mic, just being able to hear is enough.

What you don't get is many don't want to "group". Just because you want them to, ain't going to make it happen. If the game doesn't allow for the non-addicted-to-the-game-players, it will die.

[Joseph Mallan]

N0MAD, on 30 January 2015 - 03:27 AM, said:

Sailor Jarhead you are missing the big picture here, fine the organised groups deserve to win, but others dont want to practice study yada yada yada, and you should by this stage see that without these people there just isnt the pop to sustain CW.
Tell them 100 times a million times but 30 years of gaming should tell you that only a % of players will group into large teams, and you telling them (pugs/small groups) time after time will not change it other wise after all these decades everyone playing games would be in big groups right? well are they?
Do you think that there is enough organised big groups in MWO to sustain CW?

I will not be accused of not leading the horse to water.

I am in a group... Big is situational, we can by member count field 3-4 12 man teams, but have 8-14 steady MW:O players. mostly due to the stupid during the IGP era.

Are there enough big groups to sustain CW? Likely not, they got bored after 2 weeks of 1 scenario and 2 near identical maps.

CW was set out with: Open Que will likely where you will grind Money & is where Teams will shine, Before it was launched. At the Launch party, pre CW launch and has not been redacted so far. I cannot help it if Noobs cannot accept what is in a game. I PUG in CW and in Open Que I drop in group Que and CW Que in up to a 8man. I play on both sides of the fence with out a problem. But Noobs will be whine Noobs.

Edited by Joseph Mallan, 30 January 2015 - 03:43 AM.

[The Wakelord]

xe N on, on 29 January 2015 - 12:14 PM, said:

There is it ... the urban legend of the PUG-gamer that runs with the 6 flamer stalker or something like this and scores something like 100 points with 4 mechs.

I dropped several times in CW with a 10 to 8 man premade and always reached a good score at the end. Maybe not the best but far away from the lowest in my team. And that without using com just by instinctively assisting in what the organized team is doing.

So, please put away your urban legends and focus on facts. There are good players and maybe less good players and there are competitive players and fun players. But this is not related to if you dropping as single player or as group.

So, should randomly mixed player join into CW? Hell no!
Because any game that relies on random match making is quite bad. Allow single player to form groups as in any other MMO out there by introducing game lobbies and a player-group search.

Mean, I play MMO-games since around 2001 and all of them already had this options. Why we don't have this in an on-line game in 2015?

As a fellow PUGer, thank you.

However, when you are on the wrong end of a larger (8+ group) group, it is a pretty pathetic match, especially when the other team doesn't have the decency to blow up Omega, just waits in the wings for each spawn at the defenders camp. That was my last, and final, game of CW for quite some time. Poor sportsmanship on their side, and poor implementation of CW.

[skorpionet]

Ghost Badger, on 29 January 2015 - 10:55 AM, said:

This statement...is redundant. Hehehe.

AHAHAHA....

[Lily from animove]

N0MAD, on 30 January 2015 - 03:10 AM, said:

Big groups use TS or whatever, because thats what they always use, they dont dump their own coms for Voip.
But ya anyone that turns it off has no right to complain that there is no coms, but IMO it will be the % of people using Voip complaining, the rest of the team will be on their own coms even if its 2 or 3 different coms for each of the small teams making up the 12 team.
Look im your typical small group player/pug, small long term team mates, own our TS, have for long time, do i need voip? no, will i use it? no, do i say its a bad thing? no, do i think it will fix the un organised nature of the pug group? no, and by the number of 2-3-4 man groups i see in game i say we are one of many if not the majority.
Not saying it shouldnt be implemented, just saying its not the fix some are thinking it will be.
Besides a big advantage of being on organised team coms is the ability to co ordinate before the game, because you know the people/playstyles etc, familarity.
Pugs coming together on coms when already in game has limited advantage, now if this pug group forms up mutually in a chat channel before game and then has voip well yes i can see it being a bigger advantage.

yes sure you still use your voip, but honestly, when you drop as a 8 man premade and get 4 puggers droped with you, woud you really refuse to use the inagme voip to tell them where to gather and when to push? If so, not very clever. YOu probably only need a single further shortcut for a push to talk.
And currently there is not "much" true preperation before the drop. because: you know attack/defense only extremely short before the drop. 90% of the mechs are anyways the same loadouts.

Wolfiac, on 30 January 2015 - 03:33 AM, said:

What you don't get is many don't want to "group". Just because you want them to, ain't going to make it happen. If the game doesn't allow for the non-addicted-to-the-game-players, it will die.

So why would you they don't want to interact with the community, yet want to be part of the COMMUNITY warfare?
No sry this is stupid and nonsense. Sry the gamer offers aolo queue, a group queue and a community warfare. If you do not want to group in a community wide event and interact wiht the community then, you have no right to complain, then you have to accept that you will be in a disadvantage.

Catering the pugs means giving them tools allowing to close the gaps to premade groups. But people that refuse to group and don't want to use voip (even ingame when available soon) and think they have a right to "get everything" in a game that is based about PVP, should really do a reaility check. Unwillingness to use the given is something different than the inability to use something. The one unwilling has no right to complain, the one unable, has. CW is not for the solo I make 8 kills and 1200 dmg heroes, and will by the mechanic it is never be. The sooner people undertsand that, the better. even medicore players can join others and have success + fun. But the superinflated Egos of some will refuse them this fun.

If you don't want to group in other multiplayergames, you will also not be able to do specific quests or raids. Seriously, some really need to undertsand what a MULTIPLAYER game is and stop catering their own ego's and accept that PVP is with players versus others, and that trying to "solo" only will always have restrictions.
And Not sure why MWO would be so much different, because as long as it is PVP and Multiplayer it will be like that.

Edited by Lily from animove, 30 January 2015 - 06:36 AM.

[Rabbit Blacksun]

AC/10 Spider ... otherwise known as the urban spider.

The build is as follows:

1 AC-10
1 SM Laser
Leave stock jump jets
STD Engine 100

It can be functional but otherwise ...its just hilariously good fun xD


As for PUG vs Group... I don't think it matters use some common sense and you'll work fine in a group. whether you know them or not. Am i tired of getting wiped by 12 mans ... yep ... but i was tired of it before CW. So not much difference I just keep practicing tweaking builds and unlocking skills for mechs till i can stand toe to toe, maybe not win but if they walk away and go hmm he wasnt half bad then i consider it an improvement

GL n HF o7

[Apnu]

Joseph Mallan, on 30 January 2015 - 02:47 AM, said:

But as CW is for team effort those PUGS can form a 12 man and start doing what the present 12 man teams did to be able to stomp PUGs. Practice, study the game, refine weapon loadout, Practice.

Comms will help a little but as long as PUGs refuse to put in the effort we will never win against 12 man teams. They earned the right to stomp those who go into the the Nightmare Que alone. Many of us know what we are going into in CW and then complain when it is handed to us.

I PUG a lot. The CW Que is exactly what I thought it would be, rough. I don't want it watered down.

In a perfect world yes. PUGs face a critical issue... after a match is over, be it pub queue or CW, they're teleported out and back into the game client. I don't know about you, but I'm lucky if I can remember one guy's name afterwards. How does a PUG find that guy again and, even worse, spell the name right? After a match is over, as I'm looking at end stats window because that stuff is interesting to me, I see more than half the players exiting the game right away. If I want to chat at someone, they're usually gone in seconds and don't see my message.

So its plain to see, MWO doesn't make it easy for players to forum random groups and stay in those groups to improve the bonds of play, friendship and so on. This lack of hanging around to chat and invite for another game kills any team spirit PUGs might have. As a result PUGs are trained to hit the one game, play as a loose group at best, then strike out for another random game against random people.

That's the issue central issue of PUS vs premades. We need to find ways to combine the two.

[Apnu]

Rabbit Blacksun, on 30 January 2015 - 06:08 AM, said:

AC/10 Spider ... otherwise known as the urban spider.

The build is as follows:

1 AC-10
1 SM Laser
Leave stock jump jets
STD Engine 100

It can be functional but otherwise ...its just hilariously good fun xD


As for PUG vs Group... I don't think it matters use some common sense and you'll work fine in a group. whether you know them or not. Am i tired of getting wiped by 12 mans ... yep ... but i was tired of it before CW. So not much difference I just keep practicing tweaking builds and unlocking skills for mechs till i can stand toe to toe, maybe not win but if they walk away and go hmm he wasnt half bad then i consider it an improvement

GL n HF o7

I salute you sir! You made the Urbie before the Urbie.

[Lily from animove]

Apnu, on 30 January 2015 - 06:22 AM, said:

In a perfect world yes. PUGs face a critical issue... after a match is over, be it pub queue or CW, they're teleported out and back into the game client. I don't know about you, but I'm lucky if I can remember one guy's name afterwards. How does a PUG find that guy again and, even worse, spell the name right? After a match is over, as I'm looking at end stats window because that stuff is interesting to me, I see more than half the players exiting the game right away. If I want to chat at someone, they're usually gone in seconds and don't see my message.

So its plain to see, MWO doesn't make it easy for players to forum random groups and stay in those groups to improve the bonds of play, friendship and so on. This lack of hanging around to chat and invite for another game kills any team spirit PUGs might have. As a result PUGs are trained to hit the one game, play as a loose group at best, then strike out for another random game against random people.

That's the issue central issue of PUS vs premades. We need to find ways to combine the two.

take a screenshot? Cmon its surely not the best solution, but its also not an Einstein required to find this as a work around solution.

Edited by Lily from animove, 30 January 2015 - 06:38 AM.

[Karl Streiger]

workaround is a workaround - and i love workarounds - but shouldn't be that hard to have the option to "add" a guy to your lists (ignore, report, friend)

anyhow - even during my several seasons as non unit player - i visited multiple TS, or got invites - that result in another TS server address.
So you got a long friend list and a long TS list. Of course there were guys with whom you didn't want to drop anymore.
Ok there are problems to use it in CW - different factions.

[Apnu]

Lily from animove, on 30 January 2015 - 06:38 AM, said:

take a screenshot? Cmon its surely not the best solution, but its also not an Einstein required to find this as a work around solution.

Sure, that's possible. But keep in mind who we're talking about.... PUGs and newbies. Do they know how to take a screenshot? I work for a company that follows the markets. Screen shots are a big deal for newsletters and market analysis. A week doesn't go by that I have to show some employee how to take a screenshot.

Lots of PUGs are so ignorant of the game they probably don't know how to hit print-screen in game and even more where to go to find the image.

It can be done, but its a kluge at best. then you have to send friend invites to someone and hope they remember who you are instead of ignoring you because people naturally fear strangers coming out of the blue.

Hence why the game needs social tools. We have nothing right now. The game's been in development for 3 years and we just recently got unit chat and faction chat will come in early Feb.

[Joseph Mallan]

Apnu, on 30 January 2015 - 06:22 AM, said:

In a perfect world yes. PUGs face a critical issue... after a match is over, be it pub queue or CW, they're teleported out and back into the game client. I don't know about you, but I'm lucky if I can remember one guy's name afterwards. How does a PUG find that guy again and, even worse, spell the name right? After a match is over, as I'm looking at end stats window because that stuff is interesting to me, I see more than half the players exiting the game right away. If I want to chat at someone, they're usually gone in seconds and don't see my message.

So its plain to see, MWO doesn't make it easy for players to forum random groups and stay in those groups to improve the bonds of play, friendship and so on. This lack of hanging around to chat and invite for another game kills any team spirit PUGs might have. As a result PUGs are trained to hit the one game, play as a loose group at best, then strike out for another random game against random people.

That's the issue central issue of PUS vs premades. We need to find ways to combine the two.

Comms are being added this month. I just had a friend request Yesterday From a Falcon. Saw me in game. Offered me a place in the Falcons.

Guess if someone really wants to get to know someone they will find a way.

[oldradagast]

Joseph Mallan, on 29 January 2015 - 09:48 AM, said:

Every time you go and PUG... you join a team. Comms will (supposedly) be added in Feb. What will your excuse be that you keep losing ot a 12 man team when you are a 12 man team?

Lolz... because adding coms magically makes poor PUG players good ones, spins working plans out of nothing, and fills people's mech bays with fully-leveled meta-mechs that happen to work perfectly with the mechs the rest of the PUG dropped with. Right...

Adding coms is "better than nothing" and merely allows the game to be minimally viable in that area. It's a good addition, sure, but it will do NOTHING to prevent the standard PUG-stomp nonsense that has driven most of the players out of CW. Except now with coms, the PUG's will get to listen to 3 conflicting plans being directed at once and endless cursing and screaming when their team gets rolled by a bunch of "skilled elites" camping defense on Boreal (probably in Clan mechs, too.)

CW needs more players, and the reality is that most players are of middling skill and only play casually. We can either continue to ignore more than 80% of the population - and let CW fade away - or we can stow the egos, move beyond "get good or get wrecked, noob!" and propose some real solutions. I already suggested one - optional matchmaking - but like anything else that might make CW fun or appealing to most of the MWO community, the try-hards want none of it.

Enjoy your empty CW queues, guys... lolz...

Edited by oldradagast, 30 January 2015 - 06:58 AM.

[Joseph Mallan]

Ghost Badger, on 29 January 2015 - 10:55 AM, said:

This statement...is redundant. Hehehe.

Isn't the Punctuation the redundancy to the word?