250 replies to this topic

[Karl Streiger]

oldradagast, on 30 January 2015 - 06:55 AM, said:

Adding coms is "better than nothing" and merely allows the game to be minimally viable in that area. It's a good addition, sure, but it will do NOTHING to prevent the standard PUG-stomp nonsense that has driven most of the players out of CW. Except now with coms, the PUG's will get to listen to 3 conflicting plans being directed at once and endless cursing and screaming when their team gets rolled by a bunch of "skilled elites" camping defense on Boreal (probably in Clan mechs, too.)

I'm not a fan of VOIP integrated.
But the way is the same as before.

If you dare to be DC - ask before the drop or in the beginning. If you got bad and ugly response - ignore them
Otherwise:
Use the MAP - and don't make "difficult" plans -
focus fire would work for the major part
formation and better timing the other

[CyclonerM]

oldradagast, on 30 January 2015 - 06:55 AM, said:

Enjoy your empty CW queues, guys... lolz...

These days i have enjoyed a good number of drops. The queques are not quite empty at the last hours before the ceasefire, and bringing more players in will not change the fact that most would play only at those times..

P.s. looking back at "attack windows", they made sense after all.

Edited by CyclonerM, 30 January 2015 - 07:01 AM.

[Joseph Mallan]

oldradagast, on 30 January 2015 - 06:55 AM, said:

Lolz... because adding coms magically makes poor PUG players good ones, spins working plans out of nothing, and fills people's mech bays with fully-leveled meta-mechs that happen to work perfectly with the mechs the rest of the PUG dropped with. Right...

Adding coms is "better than nothing" and merely allows the game to be minimally viable in that area. It's a good addition, sure, but it will do NOTHING to prevent the standard PUG-stomp nonsense that has driven most of the players out of CW. Except now with coms, the PUG's will get to listen to 3 conflicting plans being directed at once and endless cursing and screaming when their team gets rolled by a bunch of "skilled elites" camping defense on Boreal (probably in Clan mechs, too.)

CW needs more players, and the reality is that most players are of middling skill and only play casually. We can either continue to ignore more than 80% of the population - and let CW fade away - or we can stow the egos, move beyond "get good or get wrecked, noob!" and propose some real solutions. I already suggested one - optional matchmaking - but like anything else that might make CW fun or appealing to most of the MWO community, the try-hards want none of it.

Enjoy your empty CW queues, guys... lolz...

Nope Only a fool would even think that. Those good teams mopping up the CW Que have played together for months. Years. PUGs on Comms will need to learn how to crawl before they walk. As I did back when 8man teams were the boogieman.

Actually it is only the NOOBs that are complaining. If you look at many of the seasoned PUGs who are not afraid to face challenges, you will see that they also want Mixed CW so they can have the challenge NOOBs want to avoid. I was a Newb once. So were you. But now you sound like a NOOB and I am still wanting to learn more and face stiffer challenges in CW. IF I want the normal mode. I know where to drop.

Comms are coming lets see just how much that helps or hinders PUGs in CW. I for one am interested in how it will change things. I may even win a second match.

Edited by Joseph Mallan, 30 January 2015 - 07:06 AM.

[oldradagast]

Joseph Mallan, on 30 January 2015 - 07:04 AM, said:

Nope Only a fool would even think that. Those good teams mopping up the CW Que have played together for months. Years. PUGs on Comms will need to learn how to crawl before they walk. As I did back when 8man teams were the boogieman.

Actually it is only the NOOBs that are complaining. If you look at many of the seasoned PUGs who are not afraid to face challenges, you will see that they also want Mixed CW so they can have the challenge NOOBs want to avoid. I was a Newb once. So were you. But now you sound like a NOOB and I am still wanting to learn more and face stiffer challenges in CW. IF I want the normal mode. I know where to drop.

Hey, you're the one who claimed that getting PUG's on coms would "make you a team" and somehow make them equal to 12-mans - just pointing out your nonsense.

As for the rest of your petty insults, I'm doing quite well at this game - thanks for the "concern" and the "insight" regarding my skills - but if you honestly think the majority of the community has nothing better to do than get rolled in CW matches or "keep on practicing" and thus turning a game into a job... so they can roll other PUG's... you probably should spend less time on these forums and more time learning about how humans actually behave.

I'll give you a hint: this is a game, and CW is an utterly miserable and pointless experience for most of the players, save for the "winning is all that matters" minority. You obviously don't care about CW's future, and you go out of your way to make sure nobody else has the option (match-maker) to enjoy the format their way, so I don't except you to understand that simple truth, either. Heck, when this format finally rolls over, you'll probably be blaming the "stupid PUG's who wouldn't join a team that hates them" vs. looking in the mirror for what killed it.

Edited by oldradagast, 30 January 2015 - 07:11 AM.

[Der Hesse]

Apnu, on 29 January 2015 - 07:21 PM, said:

I'm talking about this attitude I see around here that PUGs need to STFU and go back to the pub queue and let the real men handle CW. I'm also talking about PGI making a game mode that's heavily tilted towards 12-man but entices PUGs and solos in to be suckers for PUG stomps.



Check my sig, I'm HHoD, we have our own TS server. I know all about comms. I happen to split my time between unit duties and PUG life. And for the interest of curisoity I took a plunge in CW solo for a few turns to see what that's like and that's where my outrage comes from. PGI should never have allowed 12-man groups to go against randoms. We did that before Elo, before the group queue. I boggles my mind that PGI forgot that so soon.

Actually I don't think they forgot. Honestly, I think they found out CW was harder to do than they thought, they got a little crazy trying to release something, anything before their Q4 2014 deadline and cut huge corners to get it out. What we've got is, as far as I'm concerned, half done.



And so the CW population is withering and dying, most players are back to PUG life and the map is whacked out because of it. PUGs and many other players left because they recognize that its half done or half-assed depending on how cynical the player is.

Since I spend time in PUG land, I do that for recruitment purposes, I listen to a lot of chatter from the PUGs. Many of them are confused and don't know adam from abel. They don't know basic stuff, that you and I, forum junkies, and/or unit members know. They don't know where to find comms and some of them might be shy or confused how to find a group and join them on comms. Then there's the training. You can't take a random selection of mechs you don't have basics on or, even worse, trial mechs into CW. To have a descent chance of success you need mastered mechs with optimal builds, and expensive modules, and you have to listen to the drop commander and do what he/she says when he/she says it with out question or worry.

That's too much for a casual player to take in quickly. They'll just get stomped, ridiculed, and then just walk away. That hurts game growth, competition and general fun for everybody.

Comms don't magically appear when a player creates a new account in MWO. You have to dig for data, there's no help for newbies and there's no help from the forums. Half of this place is still nasty snark and trolling we also have players that are breaking their arms patting themselves on the back, or moaning about having to carry PUGs like they are Mother Teresa.

Yes I know VoIP is coming in the next patch, but we don't have it now. I'll see if my tune changes after that goes in and see what impact it has on game play, both in the pub queue and CW. Hey it might and who knows, perhaps my complaints here will be silenced. I'll be the first to admit it, if true.

As for text chat... Its OK. I've seen it work and I've seen it ignored. It takes too long to type and not get your ass shot off in the process. But don't forget, text is turned off by default, so a bunch of those newbies probably don't even know there's instructions for them to read.

Anyway, CW his a harsh mistress. While that's fine, there's nothing to tell the player what they're getting into. Yet the game entices them constantly to get involved, god help them if they get suckered in.

In my PUG matches in CW I have, not once, been matched against anything less than a 12-man group. Its always some random collection of small groups and solos against a 12-man clan group.... and we're always counter attacking. *sigh*

I don't blame players for bringing their best. Hell I expect it and desire it, its the game mechanics, the design, that needs the most work.


Yay new map.

Game mode? Whut? I heard they're changing the counter-attack so the base isn't magically fixed up and instead of killing a big gun, the attackers have to kill the whole enemy team and a mobile HQ.

Not a game mode, exactly, more like changing the way Invasion works.

Exactly this!
Ty for that post.

I really still can´t believe how many people here think that this game could survive without pugs in CW. Like all other players pug players did wait for CW so their effort in matches will mean something. But now they learn that they are meant to be excluded from it when they don´t want to play in a unit (and there are many good reasons for that) or don´t want to be farmed by 12 men clan teams (Clan-IS balancing is an issue on its own).
Those are not only players that don´t spend a dime on the game, but also players like me who did spend hundrets of dollars or even more so far. I personally know dozens of those players from real life who left the game because of this and took their money elsewere and since im only interested in playing with real life friends i think this is only the very small top of the iceberg. Those players i know where looking at CW to see if it´s worth to come back to this game, only to get roflstomped in every single match they played. Not hard to tell why they will never come back again.
And even i as an absolute addict to BT and this game am again considering to leave forever.

Continue to say learn to play - many pug players know how to.
Continue to taunt pugs when you stomp them - that will make the experience more lasting.
Continue to spawncamp instead of taking out Omega - pugs love that.
Continue to say get into a unit - many pug players have their reasons why they don´t want to.
Contiune to say play a flavor of the month build - many pugs want to play the mechs they like.
Continue to say they are working on it - after all these years they did their mistakes from the beginning again.
Continue to say leave if you don´t like the game like it is - THEY WILL MOST LIKELY DO! And you wont have someone to stomp who also pays your game.

[Apnu]

Der Hesse, on 30 January 2015 - 07:19 AM, said:

Exactly this!
Ty for that post.

I really still can´t believe how many people here think that this game could survive without pugs in CW. Like all other players pug players did wait for CW so their effort in matches will mean something. But now they learn that they are meant to be excluded from it when they don´t want to play in a unit (and there are many good reasons for that) or don´t want to be farmed by 12 men clan teams (Clan-IS balancing is an issue on its own).
Those are not only players that don´t spend a dime on the game, but also players like me who did spend hundrets of dollars or even more so far. I personally know dozens of those players from real life who left the game because of this and took their money elsewere and since im only interested in playing with real life friends i think this is only the very small top of the iceberg. Those players i know where looking at CW to see if it´s worth to come back to this game, only to get roflstomped in every single match they played. Not hard to tell why they will never come back again.
And even i as an absolute addict to BT and this game am again considering to leave forever.

Continue to say learn to play - many pug players know how to.
Continue to taunt pugs when you stomp them - that will make the experience more lasting.
Continue to spawncamp instead of taking out Omega - pugs love that.
Continue to say get into a unit - many pug players have their reasons why they don´t want to.
Contiune to say play a flavor of the month build - many pugs want to play the mechs they like.
Continue to say they are working on it - after all these years they did their mistakes from the beginning again.
Continue to say leave if you don´t like the game like it is - THEY WILL MOST LIKELY DO! And you wont have someone to stomp who also pays your game.

There are a lot of gamers in MWO who are full of their own B.S. Hang out in GD or CW forums and you'll see it more than half the time. These forums are filled with "I'm awesome, and if everybody just did my awesome things, the game's fine, and if they don't do my awesome thing they're newb PUG trynots" The arrogance and smugness is thick here.

People take themselves to seriously. They act like having a good win streak or finding a build that works with their unique play style means anything. It doesn't. Its not important, its not even remarkable to be OC about a video game.

[Remarius]

Joseph Mallan, on 29 January 2015 - 09:48 AM, said:

Every time you go and PUG... you join a team. Comms will (supposedly) be added in Feb. What will your excuse be that you keep losing ot a 12 man team when you are a 12 man team?

I can't believe you just compared an established and experienced 12 man like Lords or 228th with a random group of players that have never played together before just because they're on comms.

By implication you were actually trying to say that Lords and the 228th etc are only as good as a random group of 12 players that have never played together before.

[oldradagast]

Apnu, on 30 January 2015 - 07:37 AM, said:

There are a lot of gamers in MWO who are full of their own B.S. Hang out in GD or CW forums and you'll see it more than half the time. These forums are filled with "I'm awesome, and if everybody just did my awesome things, the game's fine, and if they don't do my awesome thing they're newb PUG trynots" The arrogance and smugness is thick here.

People take themselves to seriously. They act like having a good win streak or finding a build that works with their unique play style means anything. It doesn't. Its not important, its not even remarkable to be OC about a video game.

I don't actually mind the types who take themselves too seriously... until they simply refuse to let anyone else enjoy the game their way.

Over-competitive try-hards exist in all games. In Magic: The Gathering, for example, you can easily find "skilled" players who simply download and purchase the most broken and least interactive decks from the internet and who then expect other people to indulge them as hapless victims while they play with themselves... and yet they consider that a "game" and are baffled when most players who actually want a FUN experience refuse to play against them anymore. Still, no matter the size of the Magic playing population in an area, there will always be that small, snotty corner of try-hard players, often stuck playing against each other - because nobody else wants anything to do with them - as they wage their eternal epeen-size war by seeing who can draw their combo first... such "skill."

CW is rapidly turning into the same set-up, with the try-hards being left to play with themselves. But they earned this fate with their stubborn refusal to accept anyone's else's opinions or to allow other people the option to play the format in their own way. Just as it takes only a shred of human empathy to NOT play your idiotic "I draw my whole deck and win on turn 3" combo deck against your friends or casual players, it takes no real brains to figure out that allowing people OPTIONS in CW - such as the optional matchmaker - would give people a reason to play other than "mine's bigger than yours, noob!" Sadly, ego beats brains any day of the week, at least in most places on the internet.

Edited by oldradagast, 30 January 2015 - 08:18 AM.

[Lily from animove]

Apnu, on 30 January 2015 - 06:50 AM, said:

Sure, that's possible. But keep in mind who we're talking about.... PUGs and newbies. Do they know how to take a screenshot? I work for a company that follows the markets. Screen shots are a big deal for newsletters and market analysis. A week doesn't go by that I have to show some employee how to take a screenshot.

Lots of PUGs are so ignorant of the game they probably don't know how to hit print-screen in game and even more where to go to find the image.

It can be done, but its a kluge at best. then you have to send friend invites to someone and hope they remember who you are instead of ignoring you because people naturally fear strangers coming out of the blue.

Hence why the game needs social tools. We have nothing right now. The game's been in development for 3 years and we just recently got unit chat and faction chat will come in early Feb.

if you do not even know how to take a screenshots (aka looking into options to find the assigned key) which is rather common basic game knowledge. Then no matter what PGI does, such a Pug gamer will always be lost hoplessly, no in CW, group queue or even solo queue. So we ask to cater the game for people who can not even do this? Cmon, you can't be true, no player is so dump. He may be so inexperienced at the beginning, but this is then the time where he clearly does not belong into CW anyways and should lernhow the game works first.

Same with the "some don't know how to enable chat" SERIOSULY? how ar epeople not even able to use the most minor common sense to look into options if there is a chat key and a option for chat, even able to install and register to the game, which is a way more complex process.

A lot of this sounds like we truly have a lot of lazy fools playing or people who just hide their true intentions with strange excuses.

Der Hesse, on 30 January 2015 - 07:19 AM, said:

Exactly this!
Ty for that post.

I really still can´t believe how many people here think that this game could survive without pugs in CW. Like all other players pug players did wait for CW so their effort in matches will mean something. But now they learn that they are meant to be excluded from it when they don´t want to play in a unit (and there are many good reasons for that) or don´t want to be farmed by 12 men clan teams (Clan-IS balancing is an issue on its own).
Those are not only players that don´t spend a dime on the game, but also players like me who did spend hundrets of dollars or even more so far. I personally know dozens of those players from real life who left the game because of this and took their money elsewere and since im only interested in playing with real life friends i think this is only the very small top of the iceberg. Those players i know where looking at CW to see if it´s worth to come back to this game, only to get roflstomped in every single match they played. Not hard to tell why they will never come back again.
And even i as an absolute addict to BT and this game am again considering to leave forever.

Continue to say learn to play - many pug players know how to.
Continue to taunt pugs when you stomp them - that will make the experience more lasting.
Continue to spawncamp instead of taking out Omega - pugs love that.
Continue to say get into a unit - many pug players have their reasons why they don´t want to.
Contiune to say play a flavor of the month build - many pugs want to play the mechs they like.
Continue to say they are working on it - after all these years they did their mistakes from the beginning again.
Continue to say leave if you don´t like the game like it is - THEY WILL MOST LIKELY DO! And you wont have someone to stomp who also pays your game.

you are wrong very wrong.

Der Hesse, on 30 January 2015 - 07:19 AM, said:

Continue to say learn to play - many pug players know how to.

If true, they would not get stomped, but reality is, many of those Puggers don't want to play together, they just want to play their little by their rules and so fail the attemp to coordinate. they wait until soemone goes in, tanks the damage cores the opponent just to come by grab the kill and blae that guy for being useless to die first.

Thats the typicall pug complainer that has "good scores" - wouldn't call that skill

Der Hesse, on 30 January 2015 - 07:19 AM, said:

Continue to taunt pugs when you stomp them - that will make the experience more lasting.

Not related to pugging/not pugging, you have people with equally bad social skills amongst the puggers.

Der Hesse, on 30 January 2015 - 07:19 AM, said:

Continue to spawncamp instead of taking out Omega - pugs love that.

I pugged a lot in CW and was only spawn camped when I was the last dropping alone. And guess what even more casual units said the get spawncamped. This issue is not pug/non-pug related.

Der Hesse, on 30 January 2015 - 07:19 AM, said:

Contiune to say play a flavor of the month build - many pugs want to play the mechs they like.

And again, what you describe are CASUALS, not PUGGERS, a giant differences. yes a lot casuals are puggers, but those are not the ones that cry here in the forum, because they don't even have time for this.
And sry you if you enter competitive gameplay you probably have to use whats bets, this is the nature of competition since ever. Even in PVE games and the harder stuf in it. You can't come with your VW beetle to the Formula 1 and cry about not having fun when you rely fun on winning. Then you should go to a competition of different style (aka solo queue)

Der Hesse, on 30 January 2015 - 07:19 AM, said:

Continue to say they are working on it - after all these years they did their mistakes from the beginning again.

The only mistake was making no voip, no global chat in the mechlab and unit-only grouping at the start of CW. And one of this is solved, and other features will probably come too.

Der Hesse, on 30 January 2015 - 07:19 AM, said:

Continue to say leave if you don´t like the game like it is - THEY WILL MOST LIKELY DO! And you wont have someone to stomp who also pays your game.

A game is meant to be fun, game is also meant to have features. Different features have different requirements. As a player you have to judge what feature with your game behavior will be achiveable and which not. Denying voip and grouping and crying CW is unfair is NOT clever, nor even righful.
Egoistic gamers are those who come to a game, want to be part of any feature and want to claim all the success of that feature withouth ever putting any effort into them. But this never happened in any Game. It is a reason why many turn to cheating, because thats the fastest way to achieve exactly this.

[Almond Brown]

Apnu, on 29 January 2015 - 02:05 PM, said:

This here hits a the problem with CW. That its exclusive to team and the rest of us who aren't grouping that night, or don't prefer to group are left out in the cold affecting the IS map. We deserve a place at that table too. We put in hours of play, we pay hard cash to keep the game going, we should be able to play all of it, all the time and have an expectation of winning or losing on the merits of our play.

I'm with you Davegt27, the elitest B.S. from "good" players is egoist claptrap.

Oh and, thank you for your service. This civvy appreciates it.

Not to disagree, but, the Public queue members had the Team players "force-ably" removed from that queue because they deemed it unfair. Now the Teams get an area and the Public folks want in and ***** it ain't fair.

Let the Teams back into PUG play and they will likely give up that "elitist" attitude about CW. To use your words and to see how silly they sound here is another version of it.

"They deserve a place at that table too. They put in hours of play, they pay hard cash to keep the game going, They should be able to play all of it, all the time and have an expectation of winning or losing on the merits of their play."

So what is FAIR really?

Edited by Almond Brown, 30 January 2015 - 09:07 AM.

[Almond Brown]

Remarius, on 30 January 2015 - 07:52 AM, said:

I can't believe you just compared an established and experienced 12 man like Lords or 228th with a random group of players that have never played together before just because they're on comms.

By implication you were actually trying to say that Lords and the 228th etc are only as good as a random group of 12 players that have never played together before.

The "Real Teams" are not allowed in the PUG Sandbox anymore, remember. The point was, when 2 x 12 player Teams hook up in PUG match and face each other and they both have Comm's (when it arrives) who will the Losers blame then, when they get stomped? Someone, other than themselves, always has to be the reason right?

Edited by Almond Brown, 30 January 2015 - 09:04 AM.

[Gas Guzzler]

Almond Brown, on 30 January 2015 - 09:03 AM, said:

The "Real Teams" are not allowed in the PUG Sandbox anymore, remember. The point was, when 2 x 12 player Teams hook up in PUG match and face each other and they both have Comm's (when it arrives) who will the Losers blame then, when they get stomped? Someone, other than themselves, always has to be the reason right?

Having been on both sides of that situation, I would say its mainly because the winning team made better strategic decisions, and worked effectively together focusing down the enemy. A small portion of it is the ability to aim and place your shots correctly but that actually isn't as important as effective team play. Obviously, all else equal, the team with more mech skillz is going to win.

Now in regards to pugs in CW, I would ask that IS pugs stop "defending" Kuritan planets from CSJ. Ghost drops would slow down their advance a little bit. Thanks.

[operatorZ]

Almond Brown, on 30 January 2015 - 09:03 AM, said:

The "Real Teams" are not allowed in the PUG Sandbox anymore, remember. The point was, when 2 x 12 player Teams hook up in PUG match and face each other and they both have Comm's (when it arrives) who will the Losers blame then, when they get stomped? Someone, other than themselves, always has to be the reason right?

There seems to be a disconnect in this conversation...I'll illustrate

One Side: "we have to have PUGS in CW to make it a viable game mode, the actions of teams in CW sometimes drive PUGS away. CW needs a more PUG friendly environment"

Other Side: "who will the whiney PUG's blame next for their losses after VOIP is installed"


......uuuuhhhuuuunn?


seems like we aren't even discussing the same topic or even living in the same universe.,.....

DISCLAIMER: I dont want split ques or elo in CW but I do agree that modes could be added to create a more PUG friendly environment or incentive's PUG use of CW...all without splitting ques or Elo

[Apnu]

Lily from animove, on 30 January 2015 - 08:28 AM, said:

if you do not even know how to take a screenshots (aka looking into options to find the assigned key) which is rather common basic game knowledge. Then no matter what PGI does, such a Pug gamer will always be lost hoplessly, no in CW, group queue or even solo queue. So we ask to cater the game for people who can not even do this? Cmon, you can't be true, no player is so dump. He may be so inexperienced at the beginning, but this is then the time where he clearly does not belong into CW anyways and should lernhow the game works first.

Same with the "some don't know how to enable chat" SERIOSULY? how ar epeople not even able to use the most minor common sense to look into options if there is a chat key and a option for chat, even able to install and register to the game, which is a way more complex process.

A lot of this sounds like we truly have a lot of lazy fools playing or people who just hide their true intentions with strange excuses.

You presume a lot. You also dismiss ignorance as stupidity. The two aren't the same thing. Just because you know a thing doesn't mean everybody else does. We all can't Vulcan mind meld with you. You think its common sense to take screen shots to find friends. Guess what? Its not common sense. This kind of dismissive attitude is what kills games.

Also, know that saying taking screen shots as a solution for finding and remembering friends at the end of every game is a kluge. Its unprofessional and ghetto, its crap like that what drags this game down.

I'm not going to go further into the weeds about screen shots to build buddy lists. My point is: PGI should make it easy for players, while playing the game to find other players and team with them. The tools to find players and games in game are rudimentary at best and very rough around the edges. I'm saying improving tools to build the community in game is better for everybody.

[Der Hesse]

Oh jeah....seems i forgot the blame to be crying if you are hinting to problems with this game.

ty for the reminder Lily. ^^

[Basilisk222]

The problem is not, and never was the inclusion of pugs, the problem is, has been and always will be the community.

League of Legends has one of the most Toxic communities in the gaming scene. All kinds of filth is directed at all kinds of players. It's notorious for it.

This game doesn't quite mirror it but it's close.

People automatically think that because they're winners, they should play with winners. It doesn't work like that.

An entitled childish playerbase is this game's problem, and too few of the actually civil, well minded choose to go on the forum defending their enjoyment instead of y'know, playing the game. So we get a loud minority of players who are hyper critical-irritating-poison spewers instead of getting the real picture.

Hyperbole and whining run rampant and I honestly think they believe if they make enough threads about how terribad CW is, they'll get their easy mode, because that's what they want. They want a steady self sufficient c-bill train to their door for practically 0 effort.

Too bad.

-Signed **1 PUG**

Edited by Kilgorin Strom, 30 January 2015 - 10:14 AM.

[Apnu]

Almond Brown, on 30 January 2015 - 08:51 AM, said:

Not to disagree, but, the Public queue members had the Team players "force-ably" removed from that queue because they deemed it unfair. Now the Teams get an area and the Public folks want in and ***** it ain't fair.

Let the Teams back into PUG play and they will likely give up that "elitist" attitude about CW. To use your words and to see how silly they sound here is another version of it.

"They deserve a place at that table too. They put in hours of play, they pay hard cash to keep the game going, They should be able to play all of it, all the time and have an expectation of winning or losing on the merits of their play."

So what is FAIR really?

Nobody "forced" teams out of the pub queue. A sizable portion of the community complained and PGI felt it was in the solo and small group player's interests as well as the organized unit's interests to separate the two. And they were right. In HHoD we hated dropping against 12 randoms. It was sad and pathetic, nobody had fun. We liked having the 12-man queue, finally we got a decent fight.

I advocate moving pug games into CW. I don't think CW is just a map and Invasion mode to change that map. I think PUG modes of Assault, Skirmish and Conquest should matter in CW on the map. Let Invasion be what it is. It it be the domain of organized units -- fine. But let players hit a random queue of faction members for Assault, Skirmish, and Conquest. I see no reason to keep the PUG game modes out of CW, other than the handful of players who want to swap IS for Clan mech every other match.

Notice I'm talking about game modes. CW, by Russ' own words is meant to be much more than the Invasion game mode. I still believe there's a place for organized groups and PUGs be they lone wolves, or casuals, or hard-cores looking to grind c-bills and GXP. The game will be deeper and wider if most of the matches mattered to the IS map some how. As it stands now, half the players in this game at any given moment don't give a hoot about their faction and could care less what happens to it.

That's because the Beta lacked faction play and that culture took hold. If we want CW to be a success, we have to find ways to get those players involved some how. Moving Assault, Skirmish and Conquest as modes for CW would take us miles down that road.

[Apnu]

operatorZ, on 30 January 2015 - 09:27 AM, said:

There seems to be a disconnect in this conversation...I'll illustrate

One Side: "we have to have PUGS in CW to make it a viable game mode, the actions of teams in CW sometimes drive PUGS away. CW needs a more PUG friendly environment"

Other Side: "who will the whiney PUG's blame next for their losses after VOIP is installed"


......uuuuhhhuuuunn?


seems like we aren't even discussing the same topic or even living in the same universe.,.....

DISCLAIMER: I dont want split ques or elo in CW but I do agree that modes could be added to create a more PUG friendly environment or incentive's PUG use of CW...all without splitting ques or Elo

^^^ gets it.

[Basilisk222]

Almond Brown, on 30 January 2015 - 09:03 AM, said:

The "Real Teams" are not allowed in the PUG Sandbox anymore, remember. The point was, when 2 x 12 player Teams hook up in PUG match and face each other and they both have Comm's (when it arrives) who will the Losers blame then, when they get stomped? Someone, other than themselves, always has to be the reason right?

Ok, here's the problem with your thought processes: Comms only allow a team to speak with each other. It does not mean your team is adequately blaanced or that your "C.O." for that match is better than theirs.

There are times when you drop when you are doomed. The opponent just has the right kit, and you don't. It happens.

What will people blame losses on? Anything that makes them feel better about losing, because the art of using your mistakes to learn is not something many people posses. It could not be my fault, I'm peerless!

It'll be hit detection, cheese mechs, c-bills, maps, the servers, PGI themselves, VOIP is too distracting, and that QWERTY keyboards have latency issues. Heck they might blame it on the heat or cold.

Anything, really, that's what they'll blame their inability on, why? because they lack the predisposition to improve.

Edited by Kilgorin Strom, 30 January 2015 - 10:32 AM.

[Apnu]

Joseph Mallan, on 30 January 2015 - 07:04 AM, said:

Nope Only a fool would even think that. Those good teams mopping up the CW Que have played together for months. Years. PUGs on Comms will need to learn how to crawl before they walk. As I did back when 8man teams were the boogieman.

Actually it is only the NOOBs that are complaining. If you look at many of the seasoned PUGs who are not afraid to face challenges, you will see that they also want Mixed CW so they can have the challenge NOOBs want to avoid. I was a Newb once. So were you. But now you sound like a NOOB and I am still wanting to learn more and face stiffer challenges in CW. IF I want the normal mode. I know where to drop.

Comms are coming lets see just how much that helps or hinders PUGs in CW. I for one am interested in how it will change things. I may even win a second match.

Adding on to this. You get it Joe.

Newbies is where game growth comes from. Sure whales (I'm one, I'll admit it) keep the game afloat, but we can't grow the game. Newbies deserve a place at the CW table and so do the vets and so do the tryhards. MWO needs spaces for all of these player types.

As Russ said in the last pod cast, they can't ask for a better story telling mechanism than the IS map. The fact that the vast majority of the games don't involve the map stunts the game's growth.

The only logical solution is to move PUGs into CW, but we don't want to have them invade the organized group games. That annoys everybody and erodes the e-sports side of MWO, while that doesn't pay the bills, it does wonders for marketing. So we need a place for everybody at the table. Moving the pub queue game modes into CW so PUGs and Casuals have a stake in the galactic conflict accomplishes this with the least amount of dev time. The game modes are done, the maps are done (not gonna debate the quality of the maps, that's another thread), most of the work is already done. Just have to assign those matches to a planet conflict, enforce faction rules (hell even IS v Clan at the start is enough) and we're off to a good start.

Sure there's bumps, for those players who insist on mix-tech, give them Solaris, they can drop there on weirdo maps and be champions. Huzzah!