250 replies to this topic

[Joseph Mallan]

Funny thing about this topic. PUGs complain about losing in the Open Que as much as they do in CW. IF having a Option to have a PUG friendly CW, it is likely that PUGs will still complain... At least the Noob PUGs will continue to complain.

[mania3c]

Lily from animove, your delusion like yours is what is bringing game down..instead understanding core problems, you are blaming other people.. maybe PGI is doing same? who knows..In one way or another..if nothing will change in huge way, MWO will be put into maintenance mode sooner than later.

Causal doesn't mean bad player..but there are multiple reasons why casuals are not joining units, VOIPs or other communication channels .. it's mind set, how these people are looking at games and way how they are enjoying it.. Do you think casuals want ruin games for hardcore players? They don't really care..as long as they can sit, relax, play, have fun and feel they did something..it's perfectly fine when these hardcore groups can dominate meta-game .. but this is not happening now.

CW is designed in horrible way..many people pointed already on several issues already but what is worst, that hardcore groups..the few, who are still playing CW are deluding themselves, that it should stay this way.. There are many games, where pugs and casuals can thrive...several game designs, which actually helps casuals to cooperate better...matchmaking, which can handle casuals and hardcore in right way..yet, MWO is making things worse..their design is just not good for this type of game..their new player experience is probably worst on the market...if they would just copy new player experience from maybe even more hardcore game...eve online, the playerbase would be growing..now it's just dieing out..

I am not hater..I loved MWO and still like the gameplay..it's the best mech smashing experience I ever played..actual combat is awesome..but whole meta-game around and failed designs is really sad. The game has to be improved...VOIP is not answer..they have to create tools, which would be something like general language for the game..like Battlefield or Heroes of the Storm has..this would actually benefit pugs in major way. Also..they have to just accept, causals and pugs should have a option to be able affect CW at least in some minor way but don't fight against premades..

also I believe introducing CW earlier than much improved new player experience was huge mistake..

Edited by mania3c, 31 January 2015 - 09:15 AM.

[Joseph Mallan]

mania3c, on 31 January 2015 - 08:02 AM, said:

Lily from animove, your delusion like yours is what is bringing game down..instead understanding core problems, you are blaming other people.. maybe PGI is doing same? who knows..In one way or another..if nothing will change in huge way, MWO will be put into maintenance mode sooner than later.

Causal doesn't mean bad player..but there are multiple reasons why casuals are not joining units, VOIPs or other communication channels .. it's mind set, how these people are looking at games and way how they are enjoying it.. Do you think casuals want ruin games for hardcore players? They don't really care..as long as they can sit, relax, play, have fun and feel they did something..it's perfectly fine when these hardcore groups can dominate meta-game .. but this is not happening now.

CW is designed in horrible way..many people pointed already on several issues already but what is worst, that hardcore groups..the few, who are still playing CW are deluding themselves, that it should stay this way.. There are many games, where pugs and casuals can thrive...several game designs, which actually helps casuals to cooperate better...matchmaking, which can handle casuals and hardcore in right way..yet, MWO is making things worse..their design is just not good for this type of game..their new player experience is probably worst on the market...if they would just copy new player experience from maybe even more hardcore game...eve online, the playerbase would be growing..now it's just dieing out..

I am not hater..I loved MWO and still like the gameplay..it's the best mech smashing experience I ever played..actual combat is awesome..but whole meta-game around and failed designs is really sad. The game has to be improved...VOIP is not answer..they have to create tools, which would be something like general language for the game..like Battlefield or Heroes of the Storm has..this would actually benefit pugs in major way. Also..they have to just accept, causals and pugs should have a option to be able affect CW at least in some minor way but don't fight against premades..

also I believe introducing CW earlier than much improved new player experience was huge mistake..

What I suggested back before I joined the Law I still believe. If you read the posts of a given organization's membership you should get a feel for how they work. So if you are a laid back player find posts from groups that sound laid back. Ultra competitive? There are groups for that. There are several units that I still think would have been a good fit for me, but I like the Law and am glad I joined this band of malcontents. The game is much funner when you can laugh and complain with someone.

[Willard Phule]

Joseph Mallan, on 29 January 2015 - 09:48 AM, said:

Every time you go and PUG... you join a team. Comms will (supposedly) be added in Feb. What will your excuse be that you keep losing ot a 12 man team when you are a 12 man team?

You know, I think that's probably the most misused term in this game...."Team." In the solo queue, you don't have teams....you have 12 random people thrown together that have to deal with each other's incompetence.

Teams are people that train together and can communicate with one another......neither VOIP or communication tree are going to change that. It might make getting your point across easier than typing, but ultimately the inability to sort teams by experience level and the lack of any meaningful "new player experience" are going to nullify any communications changes.

It really doesn't matter if you say "Push right side" if either a ) half your team doesn't understand what language you said it in or b ) they can't figure out how to unzoom so they can move without looking down at their hands.

Right now, they've got whatever they're using for a matchmaker/Elo/random dice roll system set so there's really no separation at all...it's simply a matter of the number of inexperienced players per team. PGI is treating the solo queue as their "training grounds," since putting out any sort of interactive tutorial system is OBVIOUSLY way beyond their capabilities.

It's even worse in CW. Not only is it still painfully slow to get a match as a solo unless you play during "prime time," odds are fairly good you're going to end up with an even worse team than you'd get in the solo queue.

[mania3c]

Willard Phule, on 31 January 2015 - 09:51 AM, said:

Teams are people that train together and can communicate with one another......neither VOIP or communication tree are going to change that. It might make getting your point across easier than typing, but ultimately the inability to sort teams by experience level and the lack of any meaningful "new player experience" are going to nullify any communications changes.

It really doesn't matter if you say "Push right side" if either a ) half your team doesn't understand what language you said it in or b ) they can't figure out how to unzoom so they can move without looking down at their hands.

I partially disagree with you. You described solo players as bad players..and while I agree many are...many are not and solo players are perfectly capable to play according some logic/plan and be meaningful in combat.. however they just wont join VOIP or TS just because someone told them. It's simple..many these people have very limited time for playing. They don't have time to deal with different TS servers..many don't use microphones or just want listen some music while they are pwning mechs around.. these people really don't have mood to deal with different unknown people on voice chat, deal with different accents all over the globe, they don't speak much and they really don't want some wannabe pro kid to annoy them via com.

however good in game tools for communication can make huge difference. While it's true these tools wont allow pug groups make some complex strategy, just communicate to others, where enemies are, where focus their power..where is lance going and what this lance is going to do would help immensely. Again..many solo players are many times above average intelligence, they can read information they will get and act accordingly.

Good example is recent MOBA game from Blizzard..we all know how bad are moba communities..however, blizzard introduced very simple and smart system via pings, which automatically communicates situation from whole battlefield to everyone else. You can call for fall back, help, focus fire, flank..whatever..in just one-two clicks and it WORKS..it works even in pug games..teamplay is far beyond what many people expected from moba game and it's really above any another competitor.. many players are not stupid...give them right tools and they will use them..

Edited by mania3c, 31 January 2015 - 10:20 AM.

[Joseph Mallan]

Willard Phule, on 31 January 2015 - 09:51 AM, said:

You know, I think that's probably the most misused term in this game...."Team." In the solo queue, you don't have teams....you have 12 random people thrown together that have to deal with each other's incompetence.

Teams are people that train together and can communicate with one another......neither VOIP or communication tree are going to change that. It might make getting your point across easier than typing, but ultimately the inability to sort teams by experience level and the lack of any meaningful "new player experience" are going to nullify any communications changes.

It really doesn't matter if you say "Push right side" if either a ) half your team doesn't understand what language you said it in or b ) they can't figure out how to unzoom so they can move without looking down at their hands.

Right now, they've got whatever they're using for a matchmaker/Elo/random dice roll system set so there's really no separation at all...it's simply a matter of the number of inexperienced players per team. PGI is treating the solo queue as their "training grounds," since putting out any sort of interactive tutorial system is OBVIOUSLY way beyond their capabilities.

It's even worse in CW. Not only is it still painfully slow to get a match as a solo unless you play during "prime time," odds are fairly good you're going to end up with an even worse team than you'd get in the solo queue.

Thank you for correcting my misuse of the word Team.

[xMEPHISTOx]

I really wish they would just add a solo queue...hell even make it arcade mode/ez mode to accommodate the 'casual' ie. whiney player base.
Not that cw doesn't need a lot of changing because it obviously does, but I think those issues should be changed to make things more challenging and in doing so maybe accommodate the more end game minded individuals and promote unit play as opposed to making more pug/casual friendly.

[Basilisk222]

3 issues contribute to bad teams:

Inexperience
Builds
Character

The thing is, generally the solo queue has about 6 players that have at LEAST one box ticked.

CW plays differently than solo queue to boot. IS trials need to be improved in quality. (ahem copypasta 8 builds from smurfy guys, it aint' hard)

Builds can never be helped, but trials can be controlled as I've said, and everyone's character needs to not be a gaping maw of flame.

CW cannot be segregated. It cannot work that way. I hold firm if you don't like it, take a break, and wait for more content. Otherwise, shut up, we're testing it and it'll be in working condition in the future. Thanks.

[Luerim]

Base fact, Clan's loadout is superior to Inner sphere. An idea, taken from the original board game, for (maybe a surprise) GAME BALANCE, was reflected in the command structure. A clan thought about an attack. Evaluation ensued. A dignitary proposed a taking. A bidding war was proposed, and a response was expected.

One "little" thing that sticks out for me is that as the math goes in Clan military vs Inner Sphere composition, Inner Sphere would drop a company (12 mechs) and Clan would drop something that I really can't remember what it's called, but it was 10 mechs. They started "crippled".

CW is missing both the bid and the Game balance dynamic that was originally built into the tabletop game. The Inner Sphere managed a stalemate eventually, and yeah, that's fun for the Clans, but it's not a long term financial success for the game itself. I expect the Devs are working on this, but I'd like to swing their focus a little more stronger that way. I am confident a 12-10 ratio of IS to Clan in most CW games would significantly affect the win/loss ratio that is very much impacting my interest in investing in this game. Losing most of the time? Against coordinated Clan? Fine with that. Barely ever winning as an IS? I'm just stubborn.

[PerfectDuck]

If you're not willing to do what it takes to win, like utilize basic social skills to find other like-minded players and friends or teammates to play with and to use communication to coordinate your movements and attacks... This is basic stuff, really. This is what it takes to win. If you can't even do that, then stay the heck out of CW. You are no fun to play either with or against, and we don't want you. If you're deaf or something then type fast. Make a damned effort.

Edited by PerfectDuck, 31 January 2015 - 10:35 PM.

[Simbacca]

I am too getting sick of non-stop curbstomps.

7 Drops in a row - all losses, all curbstomps. What is the point of playing CW if I cannot even get any Loyalty Points for dropping and participating?

[MischiefSC]

Big post but this keeps coming up.

I pugged on a Clan border with some IS folks last night on the Steiner border. Group of 12 pugs but almost all people from units. We created and coordinated a plan and drop order while waiting for the match. We beat a Jade Falcon 8man and 4 mixed team while we were defending Boreal. They tried to play attrition, moved into E6/E7, they did all the regular stuff -

we just organized better and coordinated better. When we had several of them killed we called a push on the ones left and, amazingly....

all 12 of us pushed, and rolled them back to their gate. Then we fell back, set a firing line ambush and more or less destroyed their 3rd wave in the open after they grouped up and tried to get back into E6.

We were not on comms - we just ran like a team, used chat, communicated and used the tools at hand. When we said 'Alpha/Bravo drop X, Charlie drop Y', everyone got in the right build. Mid-match when someone said 'Guys in F6, flank in on the left and snipe the reinforcements, buy us time', they did it. Immediately and with focus. When everyone else called the charge, we turned and rolled the 8 guys in the channel. We lost 2, they lost 8 and we pushed our small 4 kill lead into a 12 kill lead and more or less sealed the match.

This was atypical. It's not a regular event by any case - what it is however is indicative of exactly what the issue is. Nothing wrong with being a pug. Jesus, many days I play 15 or more CW matches, half of them I pug if I can't find a group. The difference is 'are you part of the team'. If you're not then, well, you're a burden. You are why you lose. Even if the call for the drop is one you don't agree with you can either make a quick plea for another tact or you shut up and roll with the call. Maybe you should have asked if people were cool with you calling the drop early on. A coordinated bad idea is still far, far superior to an uncoordinated and scattered good idea.

That's the problem with 'casuals'. It's not about playing casually - I have some awesome people I play with who are without a unit and never will join a unit but are flat out badasses. They are 'casuals' in the context of not wanting to commit to a unit and they play infrequently. What they are not is 'apathetic casuals'. People can be apathetic and be casuals or in a unit. Apathetic people have no real place in CW. They are, effectively, trolling in CW. CW is about your matches having an overall impact on your whole faction. You're not playing just for you; you're playing for your whole 12 person team that match and the faction you picked to fight for. If you're not playing to the win, playing to your team and picking your drop deck based on what's going to best get the job done you need to either re-evaluate your attitude or GTFO.

If you go into CW to play apathetically, screw team tactics I do my own thing sort or are just farming cbills and LP you are the same exact ******* as the guy who intentionally selects to play Conquest but refuses to secure the cap win but instead makes his whole team lose so he can get 1 kill on a Locust. Why did you even go pick Conquest if you didn't want to, you know, play Conquest? Why did you just waste everyone elses times?

Yes yes, can't tell other people how to play the game. That doesn't mean you can't call an a**hole an a**hole. People who come play CW without really trying or playing to their teams are, intentionally or not, a**holes. It's alright if you don't know how to play CW; that's a fine reason to suck at CW. Ask for help in chat or the match. PM someone on the forums, look up threads, google "MWO CW DROP DECKS" and see some suggestions. That's all fine.

Come pug in CW. Pug all you want. Don't join a unit, don't use TS. That's all 100% okay. I don't have nor will get a mic for TS; admittedly I type 120wpm but I played a long time without even getting on TS at all. That's totally legit.

CW though is 100% TEAM FOCUSED. Your team is the 12 people you drop with. You play with them or to them and you do your best to set up a deck that supports the tactics you're going to need to use. In the same way you expect someone in Skirmish to focus on shooting mechs to win and Conquest to cap to win in CW you need to play to your team. If you're not then you're an a**hole. If you're fine with being an a**hole that's all on you but everyone else is 100% in the right to call you one.

That's how society works. If you want to act like an a**hole and not get censured by the people around you go play GTA and run over pedestrians. Be an a**hole in public and the public gets to call you on it. Social contract, CW is no exception.

Edited by MischiefSC, 31 January 2015 - 11:53 PM.

[sdsnowbum]

Something I noticed lately is attackers spawn camping instead of going after omega when it's open and undefended. They basically cause the match go on a few minutes at least to get every single kill possible.

Guys it sucks to get spawn camped. Why would you intentionally subject anyone to it?

Only thing I can think of is you are choosing c-bills over sportsmanship.Or you are sadistic.

[Karl Marlow]

sdsnowbum, on 01 February 2015 - 12:25 AM, said:

Something I noticed lately is attackers spawn camping instead of going after omega when it's open and undefended. They basically cause the match go on a few minutes at least to get every single kill possible.

Guys it sucks to get spawn camped. Why would you intentionally subject anyone to it?

Only thing I can think of is you are choosing c-bills over sportsmanship.Or you are sadistic.

That's a different problem. Dropships should never drop mechs in the middle of a bunch of enemy mechs. It's a PGI problem. On defence the Dropships shouldn't be landing on top of Omega in the first place.

[wanderer]

sdsnowbum, on 01 February 2015 - 12:25 AM, said:

Only thing I can think of is you are choosing c-bills over sportsmanship.Or you are sadistic.

Both. Breaking an opponent means the next time, victory is even more assured- and the extra C-bills just mean better stuff to do it with. And Clan vs. PUG? You're just being farmed. The lesson should be "stop fighting on the planet", but it's never learned- which is why there's 80+ people on one world in CW right now. Clan attackers,and the PUG defenders they farm endlessly.

[ice trey]

Lily from animove, on 29 January 2015 - 08:21 AM, said:

Pugs need to stop pugging.

seriously, after PGI made grouping factionwide there is no reason to not downlaod teamspeak or any other used Voip, and at leats join it to be able to listen to a leaders orders. You don't need a mic, just being able to hear is enough.

[Kutfroat]

most of you really don´t get it...

no communication tool in the www will make pugs stand up to an organized 12 man group, ever.

so, all this "cw is hardcore mode for 12 man groups" statements are nullyfied by the fact, that most of the time 12 mans don´t face other 12 mans! maybe they will when all soloplayers and small groups are gone.

it´s the same as back when 4 man premades were in the regular queue. the same 733t talk, and then, all of a sudden, when they where moved to the group queue to face the competition they were talking about all the time, the forum was full with "qq" threads of 4 man´s that got stomped by bigger groups...oh, sweet, sweet satisfaction!

force the 12 mans to fight each other, give them their "hardcore" experience, right now the only once experiencing it are the pugs.

really, this forum is so full of misgiuded elitism from players in units, and than whenever there is an event only for solo queue, they miserably fail in their min/max direwhales, timberwolfs, stormcrows, thunderbolts...supposed to carrie or at least contribute, because no one tells them what and where to shoot, because they lack one of the most important and basic skills, looking at the minimap to see what´s happening around them. not all of them, but many, so they start to try to syncdrop.
of course the(ir) truth is, their "elo" is so exceptionally high, that they only get uncarrieable bad teams to compensate for their own unmatched skills.

so yes, cw needs seperated queues just as regular games or it will be wasted effort from PGI, or at least everything bigger than 4+ should be seperated.

Edited by Kutfroat, 01 February 2015 - 03:28 AM.

[Ax2Grind]

sdsnowbum, on 01 February 2015 - 12:25 AM, said:

Something I noticed lately is attackers spawn camping instead of going after omega when it's open and undefended. They basically cause the match go on a few minutes at least to get every single kill possible.

Guys it sucks to get spawn camped. Why would you intentionally subject anyone to it?

Only thing I can think of is you are choosing c-bills over sportsmanship.Or you are sadistic.

As long as enemy mechs are dropping in, guns hot, right into the Objective zone, this is going to happen. No one is trying to be a bad sportsman, but nobody wants to have their backs cored out because they turned their back on the enemy. It makes no sense to leave any mechs alive if attrition is your goal. If you can not protect your spawn, no matter what side of the map you spawn on, you have lost.

[TWIAFU]

skorpionet, on 29 January 2015 - 08:11 AM, said:

Period.

12 working as a team = advantage.

12, all working for themselves = disadvantage.

Period.

[Willard Phule]

mania3c, on 31 January 2015 - 10:13 AM, said:

I partially disagree with you. You described solo players as bad players..and while I agree many are...many are not and solo players are perfectly capable to play according some logic/plan and be meaningful in combat.. however they just wont join VOIP or TS just because someone told them. It's simple..many these people have very limited time for playing. They don't have time to deal with different TS servers..many don't use microphones or just want listen some music while they are pwning mechs around.. these people really don't have mood to deal with different unknown people on voice chat, deal with different accents all over the globe, they don't speak much and they really don't want some wannabe pro kid to annoy them via com.

however good in game tools for communication can make huge difference. While it's true these tools wont allow pug groups make some complex strategy, just communicate to others, where enemies are, where focus their power..where is lance going and what this lance is going to do would help immensely. Again..many solo players are many times above average intelligence, they can read information they will get and act accordingly.

Good example is recent MOBA game from Blizzard..we all know how bad are moba communities..however, blizzard introduced very simple and smart system via pings, which automatically communicates situation from whole battlefield to everyone else. You can call for fall back, help, focus fire, flank..whatever..in just one-two clicks and it WORKS..it works even in pug games..teamplay is far beyond what many people expected from moba game and it's really above any another competitor.. many players are not stupid...give them right tools and they will use them..

Keep in mind that "solo players" includes new players in trial mechs. There IS NO new player experience or tutorial. They dump them into regular play and hope they'll learn. We, those of us that play solo exclusively, get to carry them every single match. It is what it is.

Joseph Mallan, on 31 January 2015 - 10:15 AM, said:

Thank you for correcting my misuse of the word Team.

You're welcome

PerfectDuck, on 31 January 2015 - 10:34 PM, said:

If you're not willing to do what it takes to win, like utilize basic social skills to find other like-minded players and friends or teammates to play with and to use communication to coordinate your movements and attacks... This is basic stuff, really. This is what it takes to win. If you can't even do that, then stay the heck out of CW. You are no fun to play either with or against, and we don't want you. If you're deaf or something then type fast. Make a damned effort.

Yeah, you tell 'em!

MW:O has NO PLACE for solo players. Join a group or uninstall. Just do what we, the majority, tell you to do or find another game to play. We don't want you around here, solo players!

TWIAFU, on 01 February 2015 - 05:10 AM, said:

12 working as a team = advantage.

12, all working for themselves = disadvantage.

Period.

Where are these "teams" you speak of? 12 random people forced to put up with each other's incompetence is hardly a "team."