250 replies to this topic

[Yokaiko]

sdsnowbum, on 01 February 2015 - 12:25 AM, said:

Something I noticed lately is attackers spawn camping instead of going after omega when it's open and undefended. They basically cause the match go on a few minutes at least to get every single kill possible.

Guys it sucks to get spawn camped. Why would you intentionally subject anyone to it?

Only thing I can think of is you are choosing c-bills over sportsmanship.Or you are sadistic.

Its not spawn camping per se

There are three issues:
1) The dropship falls should never have been fixed.
2) There are certain grids were you have cover AND access to two gens AND the OMEGA, with a dropship fall right in the middle
3) Due to the wonderful scoring, turrets, gens and Omega count 0 toward damage, and thus payout. If you want money taking a spot and farming off the defenders is the difference between a 600,000 c-bill payout and making 200,000 for storming around and killing all the things, the only way to compete with pub queue money is to farm it out.

Don't hate the player, hate the game, full 12s do the same thing to each other, clans are more likely to because there is no light zerg for us, IS teams usually go light zerg first, see what they can get open, and then grind out a heavy/assault wave or two and keep a last light zerg in thier pocket if they can't break the defense. If the IS team can break the defense they will just as merrily farm out a defender.

Edited by Yokaiko, 01 February 2015 - 08:51 AM.

[sdsnowbum]

Yokaiko, on 01 February 2015 - 08:50 AM, said:

Its not spawn camping per se

There are three issues:
1) The dropship falls should never have been fixed.
2) There are certain grids were you have cover AND access to two gens AND the OMEGA, with a dropship fall right in the middle
3) Due to the wonderful scoring, turrets, gens and Omega count 0 toward damage, and thus payout. If you want money taking a spot and farming off the defenders is the difference between a 600,000 c-bill payout and making 200,000 for storming around and killing all the things, the only way to compete with pub queue money is to farm it out.

Don't hate the player, hate the game, full 12s do the same thing to each other, clans are more likely to because there is no light zerg for us, IS teams usually go light zerg first, see what they can get open, and then grind out a heavy/assault wave or two and keep a last light zerg in thier pocket if they can't break the defense. If the IS team can break the defense they will just as merrily farm out a defender.

Interesting.

I remember reading that defending teams had to spawn camp attackers to finish the match sooner. So they could re-que ASAP.

Now I am reading that attacking teams will spawn camp defenders ignoring an open/undefended omega even though it draws the match on longer. So they can get more c-bills.

I would think if your goal is flipping planets you always want to match to end as fast as possible.

If your goal is to make c-bills why don't you do that in the normal non-CW matches as everyone keeps saying pays out more c-bills?

I'm also morbidly curious about what actually happens on team comms when it is a 12-man. Do people say 'no don't kill Omega yet the score is still 30-44 and we want to get the 4 kills'.

[-Natural Selection-]

sdsnowbum, on 01 February 2015 - 10:40 AM, said:

Interesting.

I remember reading that defending teams had to spawn camp attackers to finish the match sooner. So they could re-que ASAP.

Now I am reading that attacking teams will spawn camp defenders ignoring an open/undefended omega even though it draws the match on longer. So they can get more c-bills.

I would think if your goal is flipping planets you always want to match to end as fast as possible.

If your goal is to make c-bills why don't you do that in the normal non-CW matches as everyone keeps saying pays out more c-bills?

I'm also morbidly curious about what actually happens on team comms when it is a 12-man. Do people say 'no don't kill Omega yet the score is still 30-44 and we want to get the 4 kills'.

"ZERGing" is only a good tactic if you are close on points for the planet and need the battles flipped quick against mixed groups.

However against organized groups the "zerg" has a very limited success (as a clan tactic). Our unit specifically tries to do the fight that we have to against hard opposition despite who we are against.
To see what flaws there may be in how we are doing it, to teach new guys and get them use to fighting as a group, to try new methods, but mainly so it is routine when we do land against another 12 man.

To some it isn't farming, it is merely to keep the guys from getting lazy and prepared for when they need to be ready to fight.

[Yokaiko]

sdsnowbum, on 01 February 2015 - 10:40 AM, said:

I remember reading that defending teams had to spawn camp attackers to finish the match sooner. So they could re-que ASAP.

Situational, if you are in full press mode before a ceasefire, that is certainly the case, getting a 12 man tied up in a drawn out defense is not a desirable outcome. You want them attacking, quickly.

sdsnowbum, on 01 February 2015 - 10:40 AM, said:

Now I am reading that attacking teams will spawn camp defenders ignoring an open/undefended omega even though it draws the match on longer. So they can get more c-bills.

Depends, are you attack mode or counter-attack, on counter you if you are countering, keeping a 12 man tied up means they aren't taking more slices off of the pie. Full attack, get in and get out (strategically speaking).

Or you aren't playing near ceasefire and it doesn't matter how long you take, the two-three hours before cases are the important ones.

sdsnowbum, on 01 February 2015 - 10:40 AM, said:

I would think if your goal is flipping planets you always want to match to end as fast as possible.

If, that is IF there isn't someone throwing down 5 12 mans on an attack phase and IF you are actually trying to flip and not defend.

sdsnowbum, on 01 February 2015 - 10:40 AM, said:

If your goal is to make c-bills why don't you do that in the normal non-CW matches as everyone keeps saying pays out more c-bills?

Everyone's goal isn't raw c-bills, personally I make more solo speed dropping, but I enjoy running with my unit as well, so I like many others will "take the hit" and CW drop in order to play together. So while it may not make as much, you can certainly make c-bills with CW.

sdsnowbum, on 01 February 2015 - 10:40 AM, said:

I'm also morbidly curious about what actually happens on team comms when it is a 12-man. Do people say 'no don't kill Omega yet the score is still 30-44 and we want to get the 4 kills'.

Yes actually, building a pile under the last dropship is sort of a signature. Remember, more damage = more money, and objectives don't count.

Like I said don't hate the player hate the game. We didn't come up with the mechanics, but getting buttmad because they are being exploited is sort of silly.

[Gremlich Johns]

cranect, on 29 January 2015 - 09:59 AM, said:

There is honestly nothing wrong with that. If you realize that you don't want to listen to someone calling the shots or just dont want to do CW that is perfectly fine.

That's a naive view of PUGs. Sure there are those that don't like to listen to anybody else, but my experience has been when someone starts texting guidance, the team will comply, win or lose. I can lead, follow or get out of the way and I think many PUG players can as well for most of that. For me, the CW is blemished by 1) the F2P model that PGI is using and 2) the lack of 30 or so maps. Boring is boring, frankly, so I stay away.

[Mystere]

mania3c, on 31 January 2015 - 08:02 AM, said:

Do you think casuals want ruin games for hardcore players?

Based on what has happened and continues to happen in MWO, I can without any doubt say YES, many of them do.

[oldradagast]

PerfectDuck, on 31 January 2015 - 10:34 PM, said:

If you're not willing to do what it takes to win, like utilize basic social skills to find other like-minded players and friends or teammates to play with and to use communication to coordinate your movements and attacks... This is basic stuff, really. This is what it takes to win. If you can't even do that, then stay the heck out of CW. You are no fun to play either with or against, and we don't want you. If you're deaf or something then type fast. Make a damned effort.

Or, they can just go off and play any one of dozens of other games out there that do not have "competitive" game modes that are designed so badly that most matches are decided at team pairings, thus wasting everyone's time.

People seem to think that "getting good" at MWO is some sort of life-skill, and they need to either do that or "get lost." In reality, it is just a game - one of many - and all those folks that are being encouraged to leave because they aren't: good enough / social enough / "leet" enough to join a team that mocks them and play the game the way somebody else demands are taking their money with them.

What good is it to be top-tier at a dead video game?

And what "skill" is there in rolling PUG's and chasing away customers, and thus killing the game one claims to love?

Edited by oldradagast, 01 February 2015 - 12:49 PM.

[Yokaiko]

oldradagast, on 01 February 2015 - 12:47 PM, said:

Or, they can just go off and play any one of dozens of other games out there that do not have "competitive" game modes that are designed so badly that most matches are decided at team pairings, thus wasting everyone's time.

People seem to think that "getting good" at MWO is some sort of life-skill, and they need to either do that or "get lost." In reality, it is just a game - one of many - and all those folks that are being encouraged to leave because they aren't: good enough / social enough / "leet" enough to join a team that mocks them and play the game the way somebody else demands are taking their money with them.

What good is it to be top-tier at a dead video game?

And what "skill" is there in rolling PUG's and chasing away customers, and thus killing the game one claims to love?

So we are supposed to pay to lose no one gets their feeling hurt?

Hold your breath buddy.


There is baiscally no "bottom floor" we have people that have all of ONE owned mech dropping besides former comp players. If you can't put forth a base amount of effort to play with the team, then you can't complain when the team stomps you.

This isn't a single player console game, stop treating it as such.

Edited by Yokaiko, 01 February 2015 - 01:08 PM.

[oldradagast]

Yokaiko, on 01 February 2015 - 01:07 PM, said:

So we are supposed to pay to lose no one gets their feeling hurt?

Hold your breath buddy.


There is baiscally no "bottom floor" we have people that have all of ONE owned mech dropping besides former comp players. If you can't put forth a base amount of effort to play with the team, then you can't complain when the team stomps you.

This isn't a single player console game, stop treating it as such.

Right... because in the real world, NFL teams regularly play against high-school varsity teams, newbies who barely know how chess pieces move are paired against grandmasters, and people learn to swim by being tossed off a boat in the ocean. Or, am I to believe that "back in mah day, that's the way it was done!" Except it wasn't - it never was - and if CW and MWO is to survive, people need to put away the macho and realize that it is just a video game and not isolated from the rules of reality.

So... your business plan is to have PGI dump tons of resources into a game mode with no ramp-up in difficulty for new players and no incentive to actually play the game mode except to get good enough to say "ggclose" to the PUG's you just stomped vs. being stomped? Let me know how that business plan works out for you...

Edited by oldradagast, 01 February 2015 - 01:16 PM.

[wanderer]

Yep. Pubbie queue is right there, waiting for PUGs to go play without being stuck fighting whoever happens to be on the planet.

PUGs do not belong in 12-man CW fights in large numbers. They are fodder against large groups. Anyone who thinks otherwise should go drop on a world being hit by Clans and watch the results. Or go read the old arguments that led to pubbie solo/group queues to begin with.

The real solution is elimination of the "everyone can defend if it's Clan attacks!" system from CW. This immediately removes the multi-faction garbage drops, and same-faction drops are drops that can be made with faction groups (and higher odds of voice comms and co-ordination).

Add in some 4-man content after that, and we're good.

[Bloody]

Yokaiko, on 01 February 2015 - 01:07 PM, said:

This isn't a single player console game, stop treating it as such.

i am not sure if you have not realized this but most of the players do play this as a single player game, you login, you pick a public match , you rofl stomp around in your robot and you try to have fun.

Now if YOU are the one with the massive hardon for "competition" and this is a "huge" ***** fest for you, then yeah.. you might wanna check that as most of the world do not have that attitude.

[Sam Slade]

It's going to be hilarious watching half of the existing 'leet teams' getting mashed by PUGs with VOIP...

[Davers]

Sam Slade, on 01 February 2015 - 10:53 PM, said:

It's going to be hilarious watching half of the existing 'leet teams' getting mashed by PUGs with VOIP...

Most of the existing units are just 'pugs with voip' already.

But somehow I feel that TKs on pug teams will be on the rise.

[Karl Marlow]

When it comes to CW PUG's need to get it out of their heads that Pick Up Groups MUST be random. I get it if your schedule is hecktic and you don't want to tie yoruself down to a unit and their schedules. I understand that the Public Queues makes it nearly impossible to pick and choose who you team up with for the day. In CW you CAN choose who you are grouped up with. You don't need to join a unit. All you need to do is show up when you can and people will pick you up for a group.

At least that is how Marik works. The way people go on and on about how PUGs need to join a group makes me think no other faction has figured this out yet. No elaborate schdules. No mandatory practice times. You just show up and we share some bacon and our secret corn on the cob recipies while getting in some drops.

[anthony nevers]

ThomasMarik, on 01 February 2015 - 11:18 PM, said:

At least that is how Marik works. The way people go on and on about how PUGs need to join a group makes me think no other faction has figured this out yet. No elaborate schdules. No mandatory practice times. You just show up and we share some bacon and our secret corn on the cob recipies while getting in some drops.

Sounds enticing.

[Das Grab]

so CW is only for teams of 12.

sorry you 11 that want to play CW, you cant.
there is one other that can play but he is a PUG. CW is out for you 11 players.
sorry you 9 players, there was 3 PUGs that could fill the gap. But CW is only for 12 players only.
Lets see how many players MWO would lose.

[Lily from animove]

mania3c, on 31 January 2015 - 08:02 AM, said:

Lily from animove, your delusion like yours is what is bringing game down..instead understanding core problems, you are blaming other people.. maybe PGI is doing same? who knows..In one way or another..if nothing will change in huge way, MWO will be put into maintenance mode sooner than later.

Causal doesn't mean bad player..but there are multiple reasons why casuals are not joining units, VOIPs or other communication channels .. it's mind set, how these people are looking at games and way how they are enjoying it.. Do you think casuals want ruin games for hardcore players? They don't really care..as long as they can sit, relax, play, have fun and feel they did something..it's perfectly fine when these hardcore groups can dominate meta-game .. but this is not happening now.

CW is designed in horrible way..many people pointed already on several issues already but what is worst, that hardcore groups..the few, who are still playing CW are deluding themselves, that it should stay this way.. There are many games, where pugs and casuals can thrive...several game designs, which actually helps casuals to cooperate better...matchmaking, which can handle casuals and hardcore in right way..yet, MWO is making things worse..their design is just not good for this type of game..their new player experience is probably worst on the market...if they would just copy new player experience from maybe even more hardcore game...eve online, the playerbase would be growing..now it's just dieing out..

CW is competitve RvR style, if you want relaxed and laid back games solo and group queue are made for this, in no game on this earth have any RVR style game ever been "laid back and relaxed" PvP is never really relaxed gaming, a game gets relaxed only if you do accept that for being relaxed you sacrifice personal performance. Thats the way how competitve nature always has been. MWO is no exeption.

The only way to achieve this is making MWO a no brain run and gun around shooter where random sucess headhost make you win here and there. but such a game would be as much mainstream nonsense as already exists for 100's of times. then MWO would die off, because its "like all the others" and then people choose often the most known of those mainstream shooters.

Everything in every game requires a specific effort, I see many here crying for the big prices in MWo while they don't want to put in the effort. Thats not how a game is Working when you have a niche product. Niche means, differing enough from others to hold your ground. So what about hawken and Titanfall? they are mostly done and gone because they are said mainstream mechanics disguised in robots. But saiyng the concept is a fail when you don't want to put in that minimum effort the every concept is a fail, exept: loging in: getting everything unlocked, done.

New player experience is a different thing, but this is not related to CW.

[Joseph Mallan]

Das Grab, on 02 February 2015 - 03:43 AM, said:

so CW is only for teams of 12.

sorry you 11 that want to play CW, you cant.
there is one other that can play but he is a PUG. CW is out for you 11 players.
sorry you 9 players, there was 3 PUGs that could fill the gap. But CW is only for 12 players only.
Lets see how many players MWO would lose.

I have PUG in CW. I will do it again.

Except for the 11 man, Small groups CAN fill teh gaps.

Edited by Joseph Mallan, 02 February 2015 - 04:49 AM.

[Yokaiko]

Bloody, on 01 February 2015 - 04:34 PM, said:

i am not sure if you have not realized this but most of the players do play this as a single player game, you login, you pick a public match , you rofl stomp around in your robot and you try to have fun.

Now if YOU are the one with the massive hardon for "competition" and this is a "huge" ***** fest for you, then yeah.. you might wanna check that as most of the world do not have that attitude.

I never said there was anything wrong per say, BUT balancing the game around the lowest common denominator isn't a good thing either.

The FACT is that no matter what mode you play there are going to be 11 other people on your team.
The FACT is that those 11 people do a lot better with coms
The FACT is that if you refuse to use said tools, you are so far below par that its actually laughable.

I'm not that good at this game, BUT I set myself up to win more than I lose. That is fine if you want to be mech-rambo, but the odds are that you aren't going to enjoy a lot of success.


I can think of no less than 12 TS servers that anyone can join, if you want to pug it takes all of 4-5 minute at most to log into a server, ask who's looking for dudes and drop.

That is IF you don't drop with a group, if you see four from one unit in a drop ask if you can join their coms, my unit even has a visitor log in so its quick at the beginning of a match.

Edited by Yokaiko, 02 February 2015 - 09:37 AM.

[Apnu]

Luerim, on 31 January 2015 - 09:37 PM, said:

One "little" thing that sticks out for me is that as the math goes in Clan military vs Inner Sphere composition, Inner Sphere would drop a company (12 mechs) and Clan would drop something that I really can't remember what it's called, but it was 10 mechs. They started "crippled".

Beardy TT player here. Just filling you in on the terms and history that are the roots of MWO.

The Inner Sphere's base unit is a 'lance' of 4 mech. 3 lances make a 'company', hence the 12.

The Clans base unit is a 'star' of 5 mechs. 2 stars make a 'cluster' which is 10.

Clans also had a bidding system, based on a factions honor wherein they'd bid down what they'd take into a conflict. The lighter your unit was, the more glory it found if it was successful.

In practical terms this meant the Clans were supposed to be both out numbered and under-tonned from IS counterparts, but they made up with it by having superior pilots and tech. Especially the tech. The clan targeting computer with pulse lasers, would make the worst clan pilot a beast on the field of battle.

Clans also were supposed to fight one-on-one until there was a victor. Allowing the IS to team up on clans with superior numbers, also meant to balance the huge advantage that is clan tech.

Sadly that didn't work out for FASA. Players rejected clan rules of engagement. The game had years of concentrated focus fire culture and that didn't wash well. They also ignored the bidding system, so matches were more evenly tonned. And finally, many players I knew also ignored the star system, so I'd see games kinda like we have now 12v12 clan vs IS and they were bloodbaths.

FASA realized its mistake way too late and eventually threw its hands up in the air, wrote OP Bulldog into the time line (the destruction of the Smoke Jag) and the proxy battle of Tukayyid to halt the clans and give FASA a reason to jump the timeline and have mix tech units. It was a real mea culpa moment in Battletech history.