215 replies to this topic

[oldradagast]

Eh.... Stormcrow is good, but it's not game-warping good, IMHO. The center torso is hard to shield with those spindly arms and legs, and it's not moving at insane speeds.

The real problem is that Clans are short on mechs in general, good ones in particular, and the fixed, never-changing CW drop weight limit allows them to cram in 3 good mechs (stormcrows) and another good mech (Timberwolf.)

If they actually bothered to vary the drop weight limits up and down by planet, it might add some variety and would give people a reason to pack something other than 3 Stormcrows and a Timberwolf.

Edited by oldradagast, 02 February 2015 - 05:02 PM.

[Das Grab]

what about your BAP range you have.

CrushLibs, on 02 February 2015 - 01:36 PM, said:

top speed adder or KF 107 kph slow IS lights 150-152 kph ya nothing like a 40% speed increase

with TC and BAP

[Das Grab]

Shell I point out PING rates help a lot of ppl.

Edited by Das Grab, 03 February 2015 - 02:34 AM.

[CrushLibs]

Das Grab, on 03 February 2015 - 02:17 AM, said:

what about your BAP range you have.
with TC and BAP

What does BAP that have to do with having a light mech with a huge disadvantage in speed?

Puma and Kitfox can only have 4 usefull weapon hard points most are 4 lasers or 4 SRMs vs a Jenner with 6 med or FS with 8.

Puma and Kitfox is basically the firepower of a Raven 3L with a top speed of 107.

Clans have very very few good options besides the SC and TW. IS has multiple lights , 10 medium vs 3 clan and OP mechs like the 9S to choose from.

I mean, come on people Clan med -- IF = worthless , Nova = decent until nerfed , SC = good but every IS med can go 90+ kph to 151.5 kph.

Endo needs to be swappable and engines for clan should be adjustable in a range of -5 to +10 for most mechs except the TW which at 375XL is at the top of the range already. This would open up some of the worthless clan mechs. Also take off the 25% ERPPC perk on the 9S but leave the 25% energy reduction to even that mech out.

[Tasker]

People complain too much about individual mechs too OP. Many good mechs to use in CW.

IS and Clan both have good mech to bring, and when IS meet Clan, better team win.


Maybe you play PUG group? PUG of Clan player with 3x Stormcrow + 1x Timber Wolf definitely beat assorted drop deck of PUG IS players with many different mechs and not organized. Suggestion, join unit and play organized drop with coordination of mechs. PUG play pointless in Community Warfare. Team with better poke win game, and Clan always have better poke.

Wise man once say, "Silly to join herd of cats against pack of dogs."

Edited by Tasker, 03 February 2015 - 09:44 AM.

[CrushLibs]

I play CW usually with a min of 4-8 (SJ-267) players on a team. Herding cats does suck.

Problem is Clan has alot fewer mechs to choose from. Example:

IS lights 6 mechs and 33 variants CLAN lights 4 mechs and 16 variants
IS med. 10 mechs and 55 variants CLAN med. 3 mechs and 12 variants
IS heavy 7 mechs and 38 variants CLAN heavy 4 mechs and 15 variants
IS assault 8 mechs and 45 variants CLAN assault 3 mechs and 12 variants

So IS 31 mechs VS. CLAN 14 ,, IS Variants 171 VS. 55

Since Clan has less than 1/2 the mechs and 1/3 the variants when a good mech like a TW gets nerfed or the stock lasers are too hot (nerf) for the Nova , or the DW gets nerfs or the ice ferret ,summoner & gargoyle are worthless in battle all combines to a sever lack of talent avail. to the clans. Couple that with quirks that make the 1N shoot AC-5s like AC2s , 9S&5S heat reduction and all the other quirks made the playing field even more lopsided.

PGI hasn't learned a thing and is getting ready to release the Panther which is another IS mech. CW needs more maps and CLANs need viable lights and a revamp of the IF.

[Vlad Ward]

Davers, on 01 February 2015 - 11:18 PM, said:

To go with your lower tonnage and crit slots and additional damage?

I have a genuine question for you- how do CERPPCs work against Gens and Omega when it comes to the 'splash damage' element? Is it lost, or does it do the full 15?

Yokaiko, on 02 February 2015 - 08:47 AM, said:

likely lost.

Take a C/ER-PPC into the training grounds and play around a bit, you'll see all sorts of no splash when parts start falling off.

Confirming this ^. CERPPCs lose their splash damage when there is no adjacent component for it to transfer to. This happens even on fresh mechs. For example, a shot to the Right Arm will transfer 2.5 damage to the Right Torso and lose the other 2.5 splash damage as there is no other component adjacent to that arm.

They will do 10 damage to all turrets and generators.

Edited by Vlad Ward, 03 February 2015 - 03:22 PM.

[Nightshade24]

Tezcatli, on 31 January 2015 - 08:43 PM, said:

When one mech can fill all the roles you need. Is that balance?

Whatever. It doesn't matter. They've shown no interest in addressing this issue. We've only been talking about it since CW's release. But it got overshadowed by the whole Thunderbolt debacle. Which isn't balanced either. Having one mech that is good at long range PPC spam. Doesn't really make up for the two best mechs in the game able to make up the entire Clan drop deck.

All the rolls eh?
(by BT)

Scout: Well it is a very fast mech and makes stuff like the kitfox and adder obselete, still 2 mechs in game faster and smaller then the stormcrow and with ECM (mist lynx), many more mechs in the future like arctic cheeta and fire moth will be the top scouts. Low cockpit and the huge 'back' makes it easy to spot when the stormcrow thinks he's sneaky.

To IS: Myth BUSTED
To Cl: Myth BUSTED

Striker: Well, with the respectable speed and firepower it can be a good striker if only it had decent firepower. Excluding SRM builds there is no way a stormcrow can out do the Nova in damage. Hit and run tactics will be a lot more harsher and the Ice Ferret can do the Striker tactic better.
Shadowhawk, Kintaro, Catapult, Thunderbolt, Dragon, Cicada are all better at this over the Stormcrow.


To IS: Myth BUSTED
To Cl: Myth PLAUSIBLE (?)

Skirmisher: Well this is the best possible concept for the stormcrow, mixed ranged, can do all ranges, but not the master of any. A build such as an LRM 15/20, 1-2 SRM 6's or streaks, a large laser and a few small pulses or mediums could do a good skirmisher. Having decent firepower at all ranges and not to slow.

The IS king of skirmishers, the Shadowhawk, can not carry that much firepower and fulfill this general role.

There are mechs that can do this better for clans and such but they are much heavier. for the weight class, Stormcrow takes the cake currently. however it's quite hot even for a clan standards.

To IS: Myth CONFIRMED
To Cl: Myth PLAUSIBLE

Brawler: It is a bit to fast for a brawler however it can do large ammount of firepower however a term for the brawler is at least something to tickle people from afar. Meaning any build with a ballistics rating of 20 is out of the question and most 10's as well SRM mixed LRM's can work but it's very ammo dependent. Meanwhile a shadowhawk can easily do close up brawling and tickle afar. as well as many other IS mechs of the weight class. A single large laser and spammed small pulses would do. Not the best damage and would lose to a brawler mech like the hunchback.

To IS: Myth BUSTED
To Cl: Myth PLAUSIBLE

Juggernaut: Well this mech is to light and fast to be a juggernaut. it can do impressive firepower for one but no where near what an atlas, king crab, banshee, direwolf, warhawk, etc can do.

To IS: Myth BUSTED
To Cl: Myth BUSTED

Sniper: Well it is a bit to fast to be a 'sniper' class however it does well with gauss + ER PPC, 2 ER PPC, 2+ large laser, or UAC 5 + PPC builds. However the nova can do the exact same and use jumpjets to get to a better position
Compared to IS mechs however this does quite well. (however quirked IS mechs, ie cicada, out do it)

To Cl: Myth PLAUSIBLE
To IS: Myth CONFIRMED (kinda)

LRM boat: Well thsi mech can do it quite well, it competes well with the kitfox, adder, and ice ferret for the role of LRM boat and is superior to the timberwolf builds. however LRM's in general in MW: O atm are not the best weapon. and also this is a more ammo dependent build. IS counterparst in total LRM count is simualr to that of assault LRM mechs however it lacks the lasers those mechs have but makes up for it in durrability and speed.

To Cl: Myth CONFIRMED (Kinda)
To IS: Myth CONFIRMED




Final verdict? Myth BUSTED!

The stormcrow can't do every build and role possible.

CrushLibs, on 03 February 2015 - 02:53 PM, said:

I play CW usually with a min of 4-8 (SJ-267) players on a team. Herding cats does suck.

Problem is Clan has alot fewer mechs to choose from. Example:

IS lights 6 mechs and 33 variants CLAN lights 4 mechs and 16 variants
IS med. 10 mechs and 55 variants CLAN med. 3 mechs and 12 variants
IS heavy 7 mechs and 38 variants CLAN heavy 4 mechs and 15 variants
IS assault 8 mechs and 45 variants CLAN assault 3 mechs and 12 variants

So IS 31 mechs VS. CLAN 14 ,, IS Variants 171 VS. 55

Since Clan has less than 1/2 the mechs and 1/3 the variants when a good mech like a TW gets nerfed or the stock lasers are too hot (nerf) for the Nova , or the DW gets nerfs or the ice ferret ,summoner & gargoyle are worthless in battle all combines to a sever lack of talent avail. to the clans. Couple that with quirks that make the 1N shoot AC-5s like AC2s , 9S&5S heat reduction and all the other quirks made the playing field even more lopsided.

PGI hasn't learned a thing and is getting ready to release the Panther which is another IS mech. CW needs more maps and CLANs need viable lights and a revamp of the IF.

Not to nit pick but clans have 0 variants in game.

However there are 16 alternate configerations for lights
12 alt. config. for mediums
15 alt. config. for heavies
and 12 alt.config for assaults.

/know it all/

[Kadix]

Darth Hotz, on 31 January 2015 - 05:29 AM, said:

With all respect, dont you have anything to say about all Tier 1s being Clans? Is it always that people have no clue? Maybe a look at the CW map from start to now will help to get a better picture:




Fact is that Clans have spread like cancer. Can this be explained by having the better players only?

Your nice little picture conveniently skips over the Christmas break where a bunch of organized teams switched sides and seriously pushed the clans back...CJF recovered but with one of those teams now working with CGB the Wolves are still struggling badly...

Anyways, since you're Lyran I'm guessing you're one of the guy's I've stomped in the last couple weeks. Here's some constructive criticism for your faction.

I play as a pug, and every drop I see goes one of two ways:
---Situation 1---
I see 5-6 Jade Falcons from a guild I recognize. I join their comms because I've talked to them before and know what teamspeak server they'll be on.

The other team is made up of nothing but random pugs. No two guys with the same guild tag, and probably no more than three from the same faction.

Teamwork is OP. Clans win.

---Situation 2---
I see no one I recognize on my team.

The other team has at least 10-12 guys from the same guild. Probably some big one like [-MS-].

gg, game over, time to log out and go to bed because teamwork is OP and I'm about to get my **** pushed in.

-----------

What the IS really need to do is get small groups going. Drop with 4-6 guys from the same guild, invite the PUGs onto your comms, and start teaching the pugs how to win.

I've built an entire second drop deck I can switch to for when I see a lot of [JFP] guys vs the drop deck I use when I play with [Lords] or [KCOM] guys because I, as a pug, have learned the different playstyles of the larger units in my clan. The big guilds, by playing with partial teams instead of 12-mans, have nurtured the clan PUGs and that helps a lot.

It seems like the IS defenders I see are either 12-mans or twelve 1-man's and nothing in between.

[Nori Silverrage]

Darth Hotz, on 31 January 2015 - 03:56 AM, said:

Lets check how neutral people think of this:

http://metamechs.com...ists/comp-list/

Long Range (700-1100+ meters)

Tier 1: Timber Wolf TBR-C/D | Dire Wolf DWF-B | Hellbringer HBR-Prime/A/B | Stormcrow SCR-Prime/A/C/D

Tier 2: Thunderbolt TDR-9S | Stalker STK-4N | Shadowhawk SHD-2K | Warhawk WHK-C | Summoner SMN-Prime/B/C/D | Jagermech JM6-S | Quickdraw QKD-4G | Stalker Misery

Tier 3: Victor Dragon Slayer | Cataphract CTF-3D | Nova NVA-Prime/A/B | Blackjack BJ-3 | Banshee BNC-3M | King Crab KGC-0000 | Hunchback HBK-4J |Awesome AWS-9M

Medium Range (300-700 meters)

Tier 1: Timber Wolf TBR-C/D | Dire Wolf DWF-S | Hellbringer HBR-Prime/A/B | Stormcrow SCR-Prime/A/C/D

Tier 2: Banshee BNC-3E | Stalker STK-4N | Summoner SMN-Prime/B/C/D | Stalker Misery | King Crab KGC-000 | King Crab KGC-000 | Wolverine WVR-6K | Victor Dragon Slayer | Jagermech JM6-DD | Highlander 733C | Cataphract CTF-4X | Cataphract CTF-3D | Warhawk WHK-C

Tier 3: Dragon DRG-1N | Gargoyle GAR-Prime | Orion Protector | Shadowhawk SHD-2H | Nova NVA-Prime/A/B | Awesome AWS-8Q | Trebuchet TBT-7M

Short Range (0-300 meters)

Tier 1: Timber Wolf TBR-S | Griffin GRF-3M | Stormcrow SCR-Prime/A/C/D | Mad Dog MDD-Prime/A//B/C

Tier 2: Victor VTR-9S | Warhawk WHK-B | Dire Wolf DWF-S | Thunderbolt TDR-5SS | Wolverine WVR-7K | Summoner SMN-Prime/B/C/D | Trebuchet Loup de Guerre | Quickdraw QKD-4H | King Crab KGC-0000 | Atlas AS7-S | Stalker STK-5M | Atlas AS7-D-DC | Cataphract CTF-3D | Hellbringer HBR-Prime/A/B | Griffin Sparky | Hunchback HBK-4P | Catapult K2 | Gargoyle GAR-D

Tier 3: Orion ON1-VA | Shadowhawk Gray Death | Shadowhawk SHD-2D2 | Shadowhawk SHD-2K | Centurion CN9-AH | Hunchback HBK-4G | Blackjack Arrow | Nova NVA-Prime/A/B | Banshee BNC-3M | Thunderbolt TDR-9SE | Highlander HGN-733C | Dragon Flame | Battlemaster BLR-3S | Kintaro Golden Boy



Except for the Griffin all Tier 1 Mechs in all ranges are CLAN.

I love how people quote this likes its the mech bible. Metamechs.com is a cool site with some nifty builds, but it is one person's opinion. For everyone that agrees with his questionable tiers you will find at least one who doesn't.

Everyone plays the game different and has different likes and dislikes in builds and mechs. Teamwork and individual skill plays a enourmous role in how well a team does. That is much more important than the minor differences between his "tiers".

Edited by Nori Silverrage, 04 February 2015 - 08:49 AM.

[Pahrias]

Yokaiko, on 31 January 2015 - 02:39 PM, said:

Yeah nothing to do with IS loyals actively avoiding the clan front like Davion and Kurita

yeah i see your point but then if u look at how the ISvsIS progress at the bottom of the map, it looks more balanced overall. there seems to have been a bit of give and take. on the flip side at the top of the map, as he suggested, the clanners have spread like cancer. maybe the more comp teams have gone over to clan factions, which is fine, but i cant say that its the ONLY reason clan are doing so well (tho it does beg the question of WHY these comp teams have migrated in the first place). without the meta data on the comp teams all we have to go on is the CW map, and currantly it seems that the clanners are running riot over the IS. and have done for a while now.

[H00L1GAN]

wanderer, on 30 January 2015 - 12:56 PM, said:

I tend to find that people often mistake one Clan 'Mech for another, given the higher chances of multiples of a given chassis and their odds of being in similar paint jobs.

Just like pit bulls.

most "pitt bull (canine dog)" attacks are actually other breeds, but people don't know.

SO I guess the SCR is the Staffy of MWO lol

[Lily from animove]

Darth Hotz, on 31 January 2015 - 05:29 AM, said:

With all respect, dont you have anything to say about all Tier 1s being Clans? Is it always that people have no clue? Maybe a look at the CW map from start to now will help to get a better picture:




Fact is that Clans have spread like cancer. Can this be explained by having the better players only?

all tier 1's are clans? LOL yeah that list is silly thats all, and your shiny little gif shows the issue, look at the IS, they fight EVERYWHERE. while clanners made agreements to go for terra which limited them to 2 or 3 borders only. Thats not a clanmech issue hapening there. Firestarters Thunderbolds and especially all high mounted weapon hardpoint mechs are on IS side.

And stop lookign at this stupid side made by this stupid guy judging more mechs than he efficiently can all play and Experience enough to make such a listing true.

But the truth is, IS has the worse players on average, becuase they are filled with more newbies not able to effort a 11+ million c-bill clanmech. My badder can pull 800+ damage regulary in CW simply by snipe duelling with the thundergods.
many players simply have extremely predictable simple minded battlebehaviors and so are easy to kill.

yes SCR and TBR are Tier one mechs, and I always said they should be nerfed, because the attemp to bring other mechs on their level is a bad idea.

but as long as I see Awesomes and thunderbolds standing at 1200m in the open on vault, and circadas hillpopping so I can even see their knees, as long will the IS struggle to know and use the strength of their mechs. Yes clanners have these pilots too, yet not as much in numbers.

Edited by Lily from animove, 05 February 2015 - 01:30 AM.

[Josef Koba]

Huh. Well I guess this is interesting. This sort of thing doesn't really dawn on me so the other day I was in a CW match and thought, "Good lord, that's a lot of Stormcrows. What, does everyone have one?" Then I went on with shooting them in the face as hard and as often as possible. The enemy's drop deck is irrelevant to me, really. I can only do the best that I can with what I brought. As with everything else, the community will develop tactics to adequately deal with whatever is the flavor of the day and thus it will be. It's one reason I like MWO so much. The ebb and flow of the game's meta or whatever you call it.

I want to win, but I generally pick mechs that enhance my skills and mitigate my limitations rather than attempt to mimic others or to take part in a massive coordinated effort to exploit/whatever something or other. People naturally gravitate towards what is successful. I took part in what i guess was a zerg rush the other day and, other than the fact that the turrets pretty much wrecked me and I contributed not at all, it felt a little cheap and the game was over in like no time. Longer than it took to find a match. Seemed like a waste. But hey. We won, so there's that...

[Sprouticus]

Here are the variables in play:

• The Scrow is an amazingly versitile mech
  
• The Scrow is 55 tons and 3+ 1 TW makes an excellent loadout
  
• there have been reports of hotbox issues with the Scrow. I have not seen any afirmative confirmaiton from PGI, but it would not shock me. Regardless, it is a tough nut to crack for a 55 tonner
  
• 3 Scrows can be configured with the exact same loadout if necessary due to omni.
  
• Clan lights suck in general for CW, thus removing both assaults and lights form the pool when putting together a solid drop deck

With all of these points, the number of good clan drop decks is small

Great:
TW/SCx3

niche decks
HB/HB/SC/SC (for group play, ECM)
TW/MD/SC/Nova (for group play, ECM
TW/TW/HB/ML (ML is useless except when jumping to open doors, but the other 3 are very good)
TW/HB/SC/IF (If is ok at rushes)
DW/MD/SC/ML (if assaults are your thing.

[TripleEhBeef]

Only thing I hate about the Stormcrow is when my autocannon shot slips between its arm and side torso. Goddamn test tube babies and their anorexic robots!

But even Crows aren't as bad as the Void Shield Spiders of old. IIRC the hitboxes were literally smaller than the model back then.

The problem is that a large number of IS puggers on the Clan border are too used to playing sniper and peekaboo builds, and depending on the time they've been playing the game, don't have a decent array of Mastered mechs, modules, and builds set up for team play.

CW rewards aggressive play much more than standard queues.

I don't play on the Clan border all that much, but I've been with pug teams that communicate and fight aggressively, and they've been great games. Even if we lose, the losses aren't stomps, but down to the wire plays. More IS players need to make the shift to that type of gameplay, then the quality of matches will greatly improve.

[Nori Silverrage]

Sprouticus, on 04 February 2015 - 09:33 AM, said:

Here are the variables in play:

• The Scrow is an amazingly versitile mech
  
• The Scrow is 55 tons and 3+ 1 TW makes an excellent loadout
  
• there have been reports of hotbox issues with the Scrow. I have not seen any afirmative confirmaiton from PGI, but it would not shock me. Regardless, it is a tough nut to crack for a 55 tonner
  
• 3 Scrows can be configured with the exact same loadout if necessary due to omni.
  
• Clan lights suck in general for CW, thus removing both assaults and lights form the pool when putting together a solid drop deck

With all of these points, the number of good clan drop decks is small


Great:
TW/SCx3

niche decks
HB/HB/SC/SC (for group play, ECM)
TW/MD/SC/Nova (for group play, ECM
TW/TW/HB/ML (ML is useless except when jumping to open doors, but the other 3 are very good)
TW/HB/SC/IF (If is ok at rushes)
DW/MD/SC/ML (if assaults are your thing.

I'm running: TW/TW/SC/KF(ECM/3xAMS)
I actually prefer this to something like TW/SC/SC/SC because I get the utility/Support of the ECM/3xAMS and the power of two Timbers. The KF is great for attacking and has a bunch of JJs too.

I think once the Hellbringer comes out for Cbills we will see a lot more of those and maybe it'll be TW/HB/SC/KF instead.

Edited by Nori Silverrage, 04 February 2015 - 09:44 AM.

[Sprouticus]

Nori Silverrage, on 04 February 2015 - 09:43 AM, said:

I'm running: TW/TW/SC/KF(ECM/3xAMS)
I actually prefer this to something like TW/SC/SC/SC because I get the utility/Support of the ECM/3xAMS and the power of two Timbers. The KF is great for attacking and has a bunch of JJs too.

I think once the Hellbringer comes out for Cbills we will see a lot more of those and maybe it'll be TW/HB/SC/KF instead.

Yea, missed that one. Good utility build. The KF is just not very good in CW though, even worse that the ML(better JJ) or IF (faster for rushes). The ECM helps, but you are effectively going with a 3 mech drop deck. HB/HB/SC/SC is more balanced for an ECM build IMO.

I agree on the HB for C-Bill comment though. Being a wallet warrior, I sometimes forget about the CBill releases.


all of that is beside the point. almost every decent loadout for the clans includes 1 SCrow. And every single deck that is balanced does (due to clan lights doing poorly in a CW style game.

Edited by Sprouticus, 04 February 2015 - 10:10 AM.

[Adiuvo]

Pat Kell, on 31 January 2015 - 10:47 PM, said:

OMG....almost every mech out there can fill any role it chooses too simply by swapping out weapons, a feat that even the supposed weak IS mechs can do. Crows are great because of their speed...that is their single biggest advantage and it's the same with the timber. They are hardly broken. And I am just going to repeat myself from another thread, the moment you nerf crows, the good players who are using this are just going to find something else to beat you with. I'm not opposed to changes when they are made completely obvious but just because something is used often, doesn't mean it's broken, it just means that it's effective. The moment crows are nerfed, people will start running 12 hellbringers with ecm and people will whine about that and on and on and on....stop getting stomped and thinking the problem is the mech, the problem is the pilot and their mutual inability to work as a team or take any action whatsoever that might endanger them in any way even though it would be beneficial to the team. That, right now, is the single biggest problem in the game right now, not crows, not timbers, not thunderbolts...none of it. The single biggest problem is people dropping as solo pilots and expecting to do well against an organized team on comms. If you don't want this game to suck, stop playing like it's a 1v12 match, get on comms, join a team or at least try your best to stick together because I am sick and tired of listening to the overwhelming whine fest from people who refuse to work together. If you drop alone, you will die alone.

Pat, you know that if you took any top tier team and had them make unrestricted decks, it would be filled with those mechs. They are overpowered/broken, just like the Dragon Slayer or Highlander was back in the day. You can't have firepower/armor/mobility in one mech and have it work. That principle in MWO has stood since the beginning, and every mech that has ever been overpowered filled all three of those criteria.

Player skill does play a large part in people's losses, and I'm guessing most of the people in this thread will lose no matter what an organized team brings. It doesn't remove or excuse the issue with the mechs themselves.

Lily from animove, on 31 January 2015 - 04:45 AM, said:

this is and ever was a silly list, Nova a tier 3 long range mech rofl. just because of 2 higher mounted ppc's and JJ's? Other can do that ranges way better.

sry but the people writing these lists are not as good as you think. especially when they put a MDD and TBR in the same tier, which is not true.

You're really betraying your own ignorance here lol.

[Davers]

I can't believe people still argue about this. Russ himself has called Stormcrows and Timberwolves the 'most powerful mechs in the game'. The comp players have said right from the beginning they thought Timberwolves were too good. I can't believe how everyone runs off and copies the comp player's builds, while at the same time claiming the comp players don't know what they are talking about.