44 replies to this topic

[Voq]

TLDR: AC20 quirks really don't fit what makes the Arrow special. Can we revisit it and reconsider something like energy weapons? (just as an example) It's meant to be lasers/PPCs with fun machine gun finishers.


So, the initial quirk pass has come and gone, as has the second...

My dear Arrow had a golden age of awesomeness, long before the arrival of quirks. Back then machine guns, when done x6 were pretty decent.
Along comes the machine gun nerf, and my Arrow loses what made it amusing/unique. It was never a powerhouse, but it was fun.

Then the quirk pass came, making me hopeful we would see it buffed for what it uniquely offers... in my opinion, energy + machine guns.
Obviously that didn't happen.

I know some people played the Arrow like other BJs, but if you look at the top rated specs on mechspecs you'll see that they're largely large pulse, or large laser builds with the 6x machine guns.
Could we consider buffing that instead? To give it a bit of bite?

Note again, this is only necessary because machine guns are back to being pretty useless.
It's rare for matches to actually end up with a big group of unarmored/exposed mechs for them to come into play.

[Punk Oblivion]

THIS!

It just doesn't work to put an AC20 + JJ's. There are already so many mediums with AC20 quirks already that can do it better than the Arrow.

I have ran with success:
AC10 + 5MG
2ERLL + 6MG
2LPL + 6 MG

So yes, quirks to MG's and lasers is what the Arrow needs!

[Dawnstealer]

Totally - I remember my Arrow being fragile, but fun, and late in games (if you lived long enough) it could really clean house with those MGs. But now? Worthless.

I ran mine with 6MGs, 2MPLs, and an ERLL. Was TONS of fun. Now? I mean...why have 6 ballistic spots if you can't run 6 ballistics?

Edited by Dawnstealer, 30 January 2015 - 11:59 AM.

[Tordin]

The ac 20 quirk is useless, have to sacrifice alot to just have that gun on the Arrow. There should maybe be some added quirks for mg/ ballistics in general, cooldown and range on energy weapons etc.

[Scout Derek]

Should have less heat gen for large pulse and Stronger armor points and ER for MGs. Would help ALOT.

[Voq]

The meat of the Arrow seems to be your choice of energy (that seems to be the bulk of the focused damage I do in the first half of the match), so I would appreciate heat or range for that.

But like others have said here, range, crit, or some kind of buff to the machine guns would give it back its niche.

[focuspark]

Arrow should get

laser duration -5%
energy cooldown -5%
ballistic range +10%
LPL cooldown -5%
machine gun range + 10%

[Rogue Jedi]

I propose quirks to:
reduce heat OR cooldown for energy
increase Machine Gun range
tighten Machine Gun cone of fire (spread of MG rounds is currently greater than the spread of an LB-20X AC).

[Voq]

Rogue Jedi, on 30 January 2015 - 01:18 PM, said:

I propose quirks to:
reduce heat OR cooldown for energy
increase Machine Gun range
tighten Machine Gun cone of fire (spread of MG rounds is currently greater than the spread of an LB-20X AC).

I like the idea of shrinking the cone, if that's possible. I can handle the range being short, but it would nice to have my higher DPS weapons be easier to aim/control.

It would be nice to have reduced energy heat. I do find that it's hard to even run 2LL + 1 M without getting hot more often than is reasonable, considering that's the mainstay weapons.

[Richard Warts]

As a big fan of the Boomjack I'd have to disagree. When I found out that the Blackjack hero was quirked to support an AC/20 I couldn't wait to grab it. It's not a stand alone mech, more of a body guard for the assaults and heavies - great at stealing their kills.

It may not be part of the meta anymore but it's still fun to tool around in from time to time.

Edited by Tabu 73, 30 January 2015 - 04:47 PM.

[Punk Oblivion]

focuspark, on 30 January 2015 - 12:28 PM, said:

Arrow should get

laser duration -5%
energy cooldown -5%
ballistic range +10%
LPL cooldown -5%
machine gun range + 10%

Since everyone on here seems to like different lasers, I think the laser cooldown/duration reduction/ heat reduction should all be a general 7.5%.

Machine gun range for sure! I think it would be fun to somehow super boost machine guns so the arrow could be the first "machine gun" based mech! Like a straight 30% increase in range. And maybe fires faster somehow? like 12 shots a second? IDK, maybe that is going too far haha.

Rogue Jedi, on 30 January 2015 - 01:18 PM, said:

I propose quirks to:
reduce heat OR cooldown for energy
increase Machine Gun range
tighten Machine Gun cone of fire (spread of MG rounds is currently greater than the spread of an LB-20X AC).

I was always told that the machine gun was a hitscan weapon (like lasers), and the "bullets" were just an animation, not an approximation of actual hits. But that may be incorrect information.

Edited by Punk Oblivion, 30 January 2015 - 11:07 PM.

[Voq]

Punk Oblivion, on 30 January 2015 - 11:04 PM, said:

I was always told that the machine gun was a hitscan weapon (like lasers), and the "bullets" were just an animation, not an approximation of actual hits. But that may be incorrect information.

Sadly, they aren't the same kind of hitscan. They do scan like lasers, but without the precision. You can see it if you watch closely, but it's a cone of fire. It reduces their targeting effectiveness.

[Wabbit Swaya]

I know there is only one "true" MG quirk right now, so sad, when there are opportunities for others, not just for the Arrow.
Like maybe added Crit chance, or maybe a chance to "slip" through armor (a very, very slim one), maybe even a quirk for extra ammo per ton.
The Arrow and Blackjacks in general are some of my favorite mechs, and I know you wanted a BJ with a AC20 quirk... but... the Arrow is not the mech you're looking for.

Edited by Wabbit Swaya, 31 January 2015 - 04:19 AM.

[Voq]

Tabu 73, on 30 January 2015 - 04:46 PM, said:

As a big fan of the Boomjack I'd have to disagree. When I found out that the Blackjack hero was quirked to support an AC/20 I couldn't wait to grab it. It's not a stand alone mech, more of a body guard for the assaults and heavies - great at stealing their kills.

It may not be part of the meta anymore but it's still fun to tool around in from time to time.

I can appreciate that there are a few people who prefer the quirks as they stand, but there are BJ options for the AC20 already. And more importantly, I have much better options in the arsenal in the form of my hunchies...
The Arrow's only unique attribute is the 6 ballistic hardpoints, so to me it has to be a machine gun boat. And honestly, that's what made it so much fun.
Mind you, JJ weren't nerfed back then either, so you could really leap around the battlefield.

So I guess what I'm saying is, I wouldn't be opposed to keeping some ballistic/AC20 buffs for those that like them, but I'd want to see something else to give it back the joy that it once was.

[Spheroid]

No the Arrow does not need a tweak. Rebuffing would just weaken the quirks of the other variants. It is a hero after all, how much help does it need?

Machine guns in general need to be looked at and the BJ-1 needs work.

[Macksheen]

Make it a 10% generic ballistic range and a 15% laser duration and call it done.

[TercieI]

This has come up several times before, but basically the Arrow got the quirks the BJ-1 should have gotten and nothing that makes sense for its distinctives. (And the BJ-1 got utterly pointless quirks period).

Over on Reddit, Sean Lang implied this is going to get fixed in Quirk Pass 2, so keep that in mind.

[Punk Oblivion]

Voq, on 31 January 2015 - 03:43 AM, said:

Sadly, they aren't the same kind of hitscan. They do scan like lasers, but without the precision. You can see it if you watch closely, but it's a cone of fire. It reduces their targeting effectiveness.

Yeah, I went to the testing grounds and played around a bit. The "cone" seems to go out to about halfway down the lines on the aiming reticle. MOST the hits seem to be within the circle of the aiming reticle though. So not the best, but not the worst either.

Spheroid, on 31 January 2015 - 10:27 AM, said:

No the Arrow does not need a tweak. Rebuffing would just weaken the quirks of the other variants. It is a hero after all, how much help does it need?

Machine guns in general need to be looked at and the BJ-1 needs work.

Well the BJ-1 is weak because of the multitude of problems inherent with the AC2 currently. And even if ghost heat was removed and it received a 20% heat reduction it still wouldn't help as two AC2's just isn't that much of a threat, especially when paired with hot lasers. The BJ-1 should have the AC20 quirk. Hopefully this does happen as mentioned above.

I would also take AC2 quirks on the arrow if ghost heat was removed on them. Stacking up 3-4 AC2's with 2-3 machine guns would make the arrow a frightening suppression/clean-up mech. Even if it was fairly slow.

[MarkFBD]

Voq, on 30 January 2015 - 10:48 AM, said:

TLDR: AC20 quirks really don't fit what makes the Arrow special. Can we revisit it and reconsider something like energy weapons? (just as an example) It's meant to be lasers/PPCs with fun machine gun finishers.


So, the initial quirk pass has come and gone, as has the second...

My dear Arrow had a golden age of awesomeness, long before the arrival of quirks. Back then machine guns, when done x6 were pretty decent.
Along comes the machine gun nerf, and my Arrow loses what made it amusing/unique. It was never a powerhouse, but it was fun.

Then the quirk pass came, making me hopeful we would see it buffed for what it uniquely offers... in my opinion, energy + machine guns.
Obviously that didn't happen.

I know some people played the Arrow like other BJs, but if you look at the top rated specs on mechspecs you'll see that they're largely large pulse, or large laser builds with the 6x machine guns.
Could we consider buffing that instead? To give it a bit of bite?

Note again, this is only necessary because machine guns are back to being pretty useless.
It's rare for matches to actually end up with a big group of unarmored/exposed mechs for them to come into play.

I use xl 235, ac20 w cooldown, 1 mg, 2-3 med lasers. I like it just fine.

I could see how the other builds listed here would be good as well. I prefer the one I have though.

[stalima]

shouldnt the perks reflect the mechs natural capabilities, in case of the arrow this would be specific to the machine gun, the only thing that can really utilise those arms, or else any other blackjack model would be just as good.