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Lancea- Hardened Armored Artillery Mech


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#1 PaintedWolf

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Posted 03 March 2014 - 07:05 PM

Lancea

Mass: 100 tons
Tech Base: Mixed
Chassis Config: Biped
Rules Level: Experimental Tech
Era: Dark Ages
Tech Rating/Era Availability: X/X-X-X
Production Year: 3132
Cost: 26,145,500 C-Bills
Battle Value: 3,580

Chassis: Unknown Endo-Steel
Power Plant: Unknown 300 Fusion XL Engine
Walking Speed: 32.4 km/h (43.2 km/h)
Maximum Speed: 54.0 km/h
Jump Jets: None
    Jump Capacity: 0 meters
Armor: Unknown Hardened
Armament:
    1  (CL) ER PPC
    1  (CL) ER Large Laser
    1  (CL) Arrow IV Missile
    2  (CL) Medium Pulse Lasers
    1  (CL) ER Small Laser
    1  (CL) SRM-2
    2  B-Pods
Manufacturer: Unknown
    Primary Factory: Unknown
Communications System: Unknown
Targeting and Tracking System: Unknown

Overview:
Basically, it is a new Mech which individually is not very great, but in
numbers can operate like massed artillery along with its role as an Assault
Mech. This allows a group of Lancea to defeat many times its number in
opponents in theory, as well as lay siege to a city.


When they are employed in Battalion sized numbers, perhaps even company sized
(I have not tested this yet on the "field" i.e. MegaMek or Table Top ) they
force the enemy of equal or greater numbers to:


1- Stay in a group and get pummelled, likely out of their range.


2- Spread out, and get focused down individually by the Lancea that can stay
grouped.


The Mech is still weak to Artillery counter-bombardment by artillery with
greater range then the Arrow 4s, though the Hardened Armor near maxed will
negate this a little.


The real beauty of this though is that it does not have the weaknesses of a
purely dedicated artillery unit. A pure artillery unit cannot hold ground like
a Mech can because it can be overwhelmed by Strike units, Battle Armor dropping
on top, VTOLs, etc. This is not so with the Lancea, and the idea that the enemy
will send a Battalion of pure Artillery units just to counter the Lancea- well
it can be done, but it will leave them extremely vulnerable in other areas.


The rest of the weaponry more just rounds it out then anything. The ER PPCs and
ER Large Lasers allow the Lancea to easily focus down enemy Mechs individually,
or weakened Mechs if it faces a group.


The B-Pods aid it if enemy infantry or Battle Armor manage to sneak up on it.


The B-Pods are supplemented by Medium Pulse Lasers, an ER Small Laser and an
SRM-2 to engage enemy infantry or battle armor at greater range then point
blank (the SRM comes with Infernos).


An Advanced Targeting Computer is used to help the Lancea attack with greater
accuracy at range, hit battle armor/infantry, hit faster targets and/or to
decapitate a shut down Mech or knocked out Mech (this last being great for
salvage. )


Last I included Triple-Strength Myomer. Likewise, the Mech has many ways of
reaching the magic nine number (it can fire all its energy weapons, or all
minus the small laser while running, or it can stand still and use both the ER
Small and SRMs, or it can fire its Arrow 4s, ER PPC and both medium pulse
lasers while running. )


The TSM and Artillery also negate the effect of Reflective Armor, which could
otherwise become a problem with such an energy heavy design (Reflective Armor
takes twice as much damage from Artillery weapons, like Arrow 4, and with a TSM
kick from an Assault Mech, a Reflective Armored Mech is going to be Legged with
1-hit) .


They also have Hardened Armor, making them far less vulnerable to enemy attacks
as well as friendly fire from their own artillery. Even if they fire their
artillery at closer ranges, they can afford to do this because they are not
likely to be as damaged from their own area of effect weapons as the enemy.  


In short, the only way I can think of to counter this design is to mass lots of
artillery, which I imagine can be a nightmare logistically and effectively
means the player engaged in this specific strategy has given up the initiative.
If the other player knows that the only way to counter this design is with
massed artillery, then they can simply bring in some Strike Mechs or VTOLs to
destroy these Artillery Battalions or Companies at very little comparative
resource cost. Likewise, if facing Artillery these Mechs can spread out, and
likely take out the dedicated Artillery units with little worry as they come up
close or get in Arrow 4 range.
 
You could even bring in your own dedicated Artillery to counter-bombard theirs. That way, you effectively have twice the Artillery, plus the Mechs to guard them, for as much Drop Ship space.

You could argue that you could beat them with Warships or WMDs, but that could
be said about any design when sent in numbers (simply put if the enemy is going
to hit you with Orbital Bombardment or use Neutron Bombs, etc, there is
almost nothing you can do, save conduct a guerilla campaign. )


Another thing I really like about this design is that it saves Drop Ship space.
Not having to take Artillery in one Drop Ship, and Mechs in another, you can
save the other Drop Ships for Arrow space fighters, Battle Armor, Strike
Mechs/Vehicles.


It is Artillery and a Mech in one, and it really does not sacrifice much from
either. A group of these can go toe to toe with other Mechs or Vehicles, and
win hands down, they can bombard fortified positions, and they can take and
hold ground.


The real beauty of this design overall is it can, in higher level numbers
(Company, Battalion, Cluster, Regiment, etc. ) really take on much, much larger
numbers of opponents then you put in. Sort of like a Spartan centurion group or
Roman legion, and it is not as vulnerable as standard artillery units (this
same tactic would not work for a group of Long-Tom tanks because
Mechs/Tanks/VTOLs can get in close and destroy them all easily).


================================================================================
Equipment		   Type						 Rating				   Mass  
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Internal Structure: Endo-Steel				   152 points			    5.00
    Internal Locations: 2 RT, 2 LA, 1 RA, 1 LL, 1 RL
Engine:			 XL Engine				    300					   9.50
    Walking MP: 3 (4)
    Running MP: 5
    Jumping MP: 0
Heat Sinks:		 (CL) Double Heat Sink	    14(28)				    4.00
    Heat Sink Locations: 1 CT, 1 RT
Gyro:			   Standard											   3.00
Cockpit:		    Standard											   3.00
    Actuators:	  L: SH+UA    R: SH+UA
    TSM Locations: 2 LA, 4 RA
Armor:			  Hardened					 AV - 300				 37.50
    CASE Locations: LA, RA												 0.00

													  Internal	   Armor	  
													  Structure	  Factor     
											    Head	 3		    9	     
									    Center Torso	 31		   49	    
								 Center Torso (rear)				  12	    
										   L/R Torso	 21		   31	    
								    L/R Torso (rear)				  11	    
											 L/R Arm	 17		   32	    
											 L/R Leg	 21		   41	    

================================================================================
Equipment								 Location    Heat    Critical    Mass  
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
(CL) Medium Pulse Laser					  HD	    4		 1		 2.00
(CL) Medium Pulse Laser					  RT	    4		 1		 2.00
(CL) SRM-2								   RT	    2		 1		 0.50
(CL) ER Small Laser						  RT	    2		 1		 0.50
(CL) Targeting Computer					  RT	    -		 3		 3.00
(CL) Arrow IV Missile					    LT/LA	 10	    10/2	 12.00
(CL) ER Large Laser						  RA	    12	    1		 4.00
(CL) ER PPC								  RA	    15	    2		 6.00
B-Pod									    RL	    0		 1		 1.00
B-Pod									    LL	    0		 1		 1.00
@SRM-2 (50)								  RA	    -		 1		 1.00
@SRM-2 (Inferno) (50)					    RA	    -		 1		 1.00
@Arrow IV (Non-Home) (20)				    LA	    -		 4		 4.00
										    Free Critical Slots: 0

BattleForce Statistics
MV	  S (+0)  M (+2)  L (+4)  E (+6)   Wt.   Ov   Armor:	 15    Points: 36
3		  5	   4	   2	   0	  4	 2   Structure:  5
Special Abilities: TSM, ARTAC, CASE, SRCH, ES, SEAL, SOA


Simply put, a Battalion of Lancea may well be able to take on a Regiment of other Mechs, and it has no obvious or blatant weaknesses.

#2 Karl Streiger

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Posted 04 March 2014 - 12:52 AM

View PostPaintedWolf, on 03 March 2014 - 07:05 PM, said:

Simply put, a Battalion of Lancea may well be able to take on a Regiment of other Mechs, and it has no obvious or blatant weaknesses.

So 26,000,000 C-Bills is not a weakness?

regarding battalion vs regiemtn:
its the same as lance vs company.
so lets say: 4 of those things for ~104,000,000..... hm thats enough money to throw Atlases at you - and you won't use Atlas Mechs in the face of artillery.... you would use fast agile strikers at long distance - the ER-PPC and ER-Large linked to a targeting computer is some serious fire power - but with hardly the ability to get more as a +1 modifer for movement....there is a good chance that you get more shelling than you can take

#3 PaintedWolf

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Posted 04 March 2014 - 07:17 AM

View PostKarl Streiger, on 04 March 2014 - 12:52 AM, said:

So 26,000,000 C-Bills is not a weakness?


The canon Mad Cat Mrk 4 is 72,000,000+ C-Bills. The Daishi is 29,350,000 C-bills.

If this is a weakness, then those two Mechs are far weaker, and don't have the advantages of mine.

In any case, there are always more Mechs then there are Drop Ships to take them, and including Jump Ships which are even rarer, this ration becomes even more lopsided. Which is why c-bill cost really does not enter into canon creation at all. Unless your Mechs start costing as much in Jump Ships and Drop Ships in terms of resources, you will always have more Mechs then you do Drop Ship capacity. I noted this in my above criticism, but like I said, by eschewing the need for a Mech Battalion and an Artillery battalion, you get a free Drop Ship,

View PostKarl Streiger, on 04 March 2014 - 12:52 AM, said:

regarding battalion vs regiemtn:
its the same as lance vs company.


Nope. See Fallacy of Composition:

http://www.nizkor.or...omposition.html

Quote



  • A main battle tank uses more fuel than a car. Therefore, the main battle tanks use up more of the available fuel in the world than do all the cars.
  • A tiger eats more food than a human being. Therefore, tigers, as a group, eat more food than do all the humans on the earth.
  • Atoms are colorless. Cats are made of atoms, so cats are colorless.
  • "Every player on the team is a superstar and a great player, so the team is a great team." This is fallacious since the superstars might not be able to play together very well and hence they could be a lousy team.




View PostKarl Streiger, on 04 March 2014 - 12:52 AM, said:

so lets say: 4 of those things for ~104,000,000.....hm


So let's just say four Mad Cat Mrk 4s, which are canon designs, for 288,000,000...hm or 4 Tomahawk 2s for 31,000,000 each....hmm.

Hm.

Anyways, the literature says Vlad Ward took a Binary of Tomahawk 2s, and owned a Mad Cat Mrk 4.

View PostKarl Streiger, on 04 March 2014 - 12:52 AM, said:

thats enough money to throw Atlases at you


Good luck getting the Jump Ships and Drop Ships for that.

View PostKarl Streiger, on 04 March 2014 - 12:52 AM, said:

- and you won't use Atlas Mechs in the face of artillery.... you would use fast agile strikers at long distance


Why would I use agile strikers against your Atlas's?

View PostKarl Streiger, on 04 March 2014 - 12:52 AM, said:

- the ER-PPC and ER-Large linked to a targeting computer is some serious fire power - but with hardly the ability to get more as a +1 modifer for movement....there is a good chance that you get more shelling than you can take


Which is why the Artillery can just target ground and saturate an area. This forces the enemy to scatter, which means they can be picked off one by one.

#4 Karl Streiger

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Posted 04 March 2014 - 08:07 AM

OK - then another hint:
you mentioned TSM....but i see that you did mount Inferno rounds.... that isn't a good idea.

Considering logistics .... yes you are right. a Regiment of artillery tanks may be less expensive to buy, but maintenance is a problem.
...BTW: you really shoud increase the ammunition storrage for the arrow: for example a ton of Anti Air arrows - just in case your enemy doesn't fight on the ground - but want to make a staturation bombing run.

With IS Tech only: I'm able to create a version that is slower
Mass: 100 tons
Tech Base: Inner Sphere
Chassis Config: Biped
Rules Level: Experimental Tech
Era: Clan Invasion
Tech Rating/Era Availability: E/X-X-F-A
Production Year: 3070
Cost: 10.042.667 C-Bills
Battle Value: 2.249
Chassis: Unknown Endo-Composite
Power Plant: Unknown 200 Fusion Engine
Walking Speed: 21,6 km/hQ
Maximum Speed: 32,4 km/h (21,6 km/h)
Jump Jets: None
    Jump Capacity: 0 meters
Armor: Unknown Hardened
Armament:
    1  Arrow IV Missile
    1  ER PPC
    1  LB 5-X AC
    2  Flamers
    1  TAG
Manufacturer: Unknown
    Primary Factory: Unknown
Communications System: Unknown
Targeting and Tracking System: Unknown
================================================================================
Equipment		   Type						 Rating				   Mass 
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Internal Structure: Endo-Composite			   152 points			    7,50
    Internal Locations: 3 LT, 2 LL, 2 RL
Engine:			 Fusion Engine			    200					   8,50
    Walking MP: 2
    Running MP: 3 (2)
    Jumping MP: 0
Heat Sinks:		 Double Heat Sink			 10(20)				    0,00
    Heat Sink Locations: 1 LT, 1 LA
Gyro:			   Standard											   2,00
Cockpit:		    Standard											   3,00
    Actuators:	  L: SH+UA+LA+H    R: SH+UA
Armor:			  Hardened					 AV - 288				 36,00
    CASE II Locations: 1 LT, 1 RT										  2,00
													  Internal	   Armor	 
													  Structure	  Factor	
											    Head	 3		    9		
									    Center Torso	 31		   45	   
								 Center Torso (rear)				  12	   
										   L/R Torso	 21		   31	   
								    L/R Torso (rear)				  11	   
											 L/R Arm	 17		   30	   
											 L/R Leg	 21		   39	   
================================================================================
Equipment								 Location    Heat    Critical    Mass 
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
TAG										  HD	    0		 1		 1,00
2 Flamers								    CT	    6		 2		 2,00
Arrow IV Missile							 RT/RA	 10	    5/10	 15,00
ER PPC									   LT	    15	    3		 7,00
LB 5-X AC								    LA	    1		 5		 8,00
@Arrow IV (Cluster) (5)					  RT	    -		 1		 1,00
@Arrow IV (Homing) (10)					  RT	    -		 2		 2,00
@Arrow IV (ADA) (5)						  RT	    -		 1		 1,00
@Arrow IV (Non-Home) (10)				    RT	    -		 2		 2,00
@LB 5-X (Cluster) (20)					   LT	    -		 1		 1,00
@LB 5-X (Slug) (20)						  LT	    -		 1		 1,00
										    Free Critical Slots: 0
BattleForce Statistics
MV	  S (+0)  M (+2)  L (+4)  E (+6)   Wt.   Ov   Armor:	 19    Points: 22
2		  3	   1	   1	   0	  4	 1   Structure:  4
Special Abilities: ARTAIS, TAG, CASEII, SRCH, ES, SEAL, SOA


This version doesn't generate any devensive movement modifactors.... but its cheaper and its "IS-Tech Only"
Speed is not necessary because of its very - nature "Siege" and "Defense"
You may need some Mechs as bodygurads....

Anyhow - the Arrow is a "light" artillery piece why to "waste" it on a assault:

why not on a faster heavy Mech
Patriot MK II

Mass: 65 tons
Tech Base: Inner Sphere
Chassis Config: Biped
Rules Level: Experimental Tech
Era: Clan Invasion
Tech Rating/Era Availability: E/X-X-F-A
Production Year: 3070
Cost: 15.260.987 C-Bills
Battle Value: 1.797

Chassis: RI-12b Pikeman Endo-Steel
Power Plant: Hermes 325 Fusion XL Engine
Walking Speed: 54,0 km/h
Maximum Speed: 86,4 km/h
Jump Jets: None
    Jump Capacity: 0 meters
Armor: Durallex Heavy Standard Armor
Armament:
    1 Holly Arrow IV Missile
    1  ER PPC
    1  TAG
    1  Guardian ECM Suite
    1 LFN Lindblad Shotgun Anti-Missile System
Manufacturer: Ronin Incorporated
    Primary Factory: Wallis
Communications System: Garrett C22A
Targeting and Tracking System: Wasat Watchdog W120 with A-Trac

================================================================================
Equipment		   Type						 Rating				   Mass  
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Internal Structure: Endo-Steel				   104 points			    3,50
    Internal Locations: 3 LT, 1 LA, 6 RA, 2 LL, 2 RL
Engine:			 XL Fusion Engine			 325					  12,00
    Walking MP: 5
    Running MP: 8
    Jumping MP: 0
Heat Sinks:		 Double Heat Sink			 10(20)				    0,00
Gyro:			   XL													 2,00
Cockpit:		    Small												  2,00
    Actuators:	  L: SH+UA    R: SH+UA+LA
Armor:			  Standard Armor			   AV - 208				 13,00
    CASE II Locations: 1 RT											    1,00

													  Internal	   Armor	  
													  Structure	  Factor     
											    Head	 3		    9	     
									    Center Torso	 21		   32	    
								 Center Torso (rear)				  9	     
										   L/R Torso	 15		   22	    
								    L/R Torso (rear)				  8	     
											 L/R Arm	 10		   20	    
											 L/R Leg	 15		   29	    

================================================================================
Equipment								 Location    Heat    Critical    Mass  
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Guardian ECM Suite						   HD	    0		 2		 1,50
TAG										  RT	    0		 1		 1,00
Anti-Missile System						  RT	    1		 1		 0,50
Arrow IV Missile							 LT/LA	 10	    6/9	  15,00
ER PPC									   RA	    15	    3		 7,00
@Arrow IV (Non-Home) (10)				    RT	    -		 2		 2,00
@Anti-Missile System (12)				    RT	    -		 1		 1,00
@Arrow IV (Homing) (10)					  RT	    -		 2		 2,00
@Arrow IV (ADA) (5)						  RT	    -		 1		 1,00
										    Free Critical Slots: 0

BattleForce Statistics
MV	  S (+0)  M (+2)  L (+4)  E (+6)   Wt.   Ov   Armor:	  7    Points: 18
5		  3	   1	   1	   0	  3	 0   Structure:  3
Special Abilities: ARTAIS, TAG, ECM, AMS, CASEII, SRCH, ES, SEAL, SOA



And of course you need something to hunt "slow" moving artillerie pieces right?
Mobile - as a light and armored like a heavy:

Phoenix
Mass: 55 tons
Tech Base: Clan
Chassis Config: Biped
Rules Level: Experimental Tech
Era: Clan Invasion
Tech Rating/Era Availability: F/X-X-F-A
Production Year: 3070
Cost: 14.338.740 C-Bills
Battle Value: 2.580
Chassis: Unknown Endo-Steel
Power Plant: Unknown 330 Fusion XL Engine
Walking Speed: 64,8 km/h
Maximum Speed: 97,2 km/h (129,6 km/h)
Jump Jets: Unknown
    Jump Capacity: 180 meters (240 meters)
Armor: Unknown Ferro-Lamellor
Armament:
    1  Imp. Hvy Large Laser
    2  Imp. Hvy Medium Lasers
    1  Imp. Hvy Small Laser
Manufacturer: Unknown
    Primary Factory: Unknown
Communications System: Unknown
Targeting and Tracking System: Unknown
================================================================================
Equipment		   Type						 Rating				   Mass 
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Internal Structure: Endo-Steel				    91 points			    3,00
    Internal Locations: 1 HD, 2 CT, 1 LA, 2 RA, 1 LL
Engine:			 XL Fusion Engine			 330					  12,50
    Walking MP: 6
    Running MP: 9 (12)
    Jumping MP: 6 (8) Standard
    Jump Jet Locations: 3 LT, 3 RT										 3,00
Heat Sinks:		 Double Heat Sink			 13(29)				    3,00
Gyro:			   Standard											   4,00
Cockpit:		    Standard											   3,00
    Actuators:	  L: SH+UA+LA+H    R: SH+UA+LA+H
Armor:			  Ferro-Lamellor			   AV - 182				 13,00
    Armor Locations: 2 LT, 2 RT, 3 LA, 2 RA, 1 LL, 2 RL
    CASE Locations: LA, RA												 0,00
													  Internal	   Armor	 
													  Structure	  Factor	
											    Head	 3		    9		
									    Center Torso	 18		   28	   
								 Center Torso (rear)				  7		
										   L/R Torso	 13		   19	   
								    L/R Torso (rear)				  7		
											 L/R Arm	 9		    18	   
											 L/R Leg	 13		   25	   
================================================================================
Equipment								 Location    Heat    Critical    Mass 
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
MASC										 RT	    -		 2		 2,00
Targeting Computer						   LT	    -		 2		 2,00
Partial Wing								 LT/RT	 -		 3/3	   3,00
2 Imp. Hvy Medium Lasers					 RA	    14	    4		 2,00
Imp. Hvy Large Laser						 LA	    18	    3		 4,00
Imp. Hvy Small Laser						 LA	    3		 1		 0,50
										    Free Critical Slots: 0
BattleForce Statistics
MV	  S (+0)  M (+2)  L (+4)  E (+6)   Wt.   Ov   Armor:	  7    Points: 26
8		  4	   4	   0	   0	  2	 0   Structure:  3
Special Abilities: ENE, SRCH, ES, SEAL, SOA



#5 ApolloKaras

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Posted 04 March 2014 - 10:12 AM

The cost is... high. BV2 is 3132, I have the cost @ 26.7 million. This isn't meant for BV limited drops I take it? With this cost of BV I could get: a Medium STD Engine with an Arrow IV, a 150kph Tag/Ecm scout, and a Tech 1 Assault damage soaker and still stay within 3132, and under 26.7 million. I largely agree with Karl with the ideas of alternative methods to accomplish what you want to do.

This is not taking into account FSM (Force Size Multiplier) which is prohibitively restrictive imho.

It's an impressive design, its just expensive, and kinda putting all your eggs in one basket. Most of the drops I play are around 4-5k for 3025 era, if we're doing tech 1 we'll lower that. However Tech 3, things can get expensive, so we'll allow 6k.

#6 PaintedWolf

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Posted 04 March 2014 - 11:08 AM

View PostSaxie, on 04 March 2014 - 10:12 AM, said:

The cost is... high. BV2 is 3132, I have the cost @ 26.7 million. This isn't meant for BV limited drops I take it? With this cost of BV I could get: a Medium STD Engine with an Arrow IV, a 150kph Tag/Ecm scout, and a Tech 1 Assault damage soaker and still stay within 3132, and under 26.7 million. I largely agree with Karl with the ideas of alternative methods to accomplish what you want to do.

This is not taking into account FSM (Force Size Multiplier) which is prohibitively restrictive imho.

It's an impressive design, its just expensive, and kinda putting all your eggs in one basket. Most of the drops I play are around 4-5k for 3025 era, if we're doing tech 1 we'll lower that. However Tech 3, things can get expensive, so we'll allow 6k.


I don't take much stock in BV. I have played several games where I won despite the opponent having much more BV then me, dozens of times if you count me vs AI.

Examples: 1 Daishi vs dozens of 3025 IS medium Mechs (human opponent). A few designed pure IS tech Mechs vs Manei Domini with maxed out pilots (the opponent had almost 9 Times my BV ). MW: Tactics- out of 6 games I played against others (won 5) four times I won the opponent had more BV. (all human opponents) . Third to last the opponent had almost 2,000 more BV, maybe a little more then 2k (all orange Stalkers vs my Purples, and better pilots). I won with 2 Mechs left in that Lance vs Lance engagement.

BV is pretty subjectively determined as far as I can tell. First of all, how is it even determined that an ER PPC has more "Battle Value" then say an LRM-20 or Gauss Rifle? Why is the number 412? What does one point of Battle Value even mean anyways? The number looks made up and arbitrary.

It gets even worse when you take into account things like grouping weapons together. Remember the Fallacy of Composition mentioned above- a whole is not necessarily characteristic of its parts i.e. a light part does not mean the entire machine will be light-weight.

So why does BV remain the same for SRMs if I have 3 vs just 1? When grouped like that they could easily operate in a qualitatively distinct manner.

But even within the confines of BV, if we have a Battalion of these Mechs, they can theoretically destroy a Regiment of lesser machines. That would very much bias the BV in the Lancea's favor so long as it is used as intended.

if you do not use it as intended, then you are attacking a Straw Man argument.

That'd be like sending out a single Spartan or Legionnaire to fight one on one. By themselves, Spartans and Roman Legionnaires simply were not that impressive, however as a Phalanx or Legion they could easily take on 10-20 times their numbers with minimal losses.

In small numbers your BV argument does hold, but once a certain number of Lancea are reached, they can probably take out many times their BV in terms of enemy forces.

Edited by PaintedWolf, 04 March 2014 - 11:32 AM.


#7 CarnageINC

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Posted 04 March 2014 - 11:46 AM

Well I can see a lot of good things in your design and your thought process. But on the other hand I think there are holes in your ideas and I believe it does have some obvious weakness. I guess it all comes down to how you want to have a debate about your mech design and its employment.

We could debate about how it would work in the "real" world of BT. In that world nothing is equal all the time, there are no BV to go by, its who has what and where its going and how can I counter that with what I got kinda of thing. True to the heart of canon is how I view this debate. This of course would be very hypothetical "what if this, what if that" and very open ended kind of setting.

Second we can debate using a campaign setting (my favorite kind of TT gaming with BT mini's :blink: ). This is were you try and have a fair and balanced overall BV but with more "real world" assets attached to the game. Things like what you hit upon earlier...Dropships, service personnel, supplies and repairs to name a few. It can be either a single planetary campaign setting or a multi-planetary campaign. The settings for that kind of debate have to be agreed upon at the start so to avoid loopholes and things of that sort.

Then there is always the classic set piece BattleTech BV one off match. You take what you want up to X amount of BV and I'll take up to that value too.

Or we don't have to have any debates :wacko:. I can say good job and give you a pat on the back because it is a good design and thought out. Its not what I think the perfect mech is nor would I use it they way you have described but each to their own right <_<. To be honest I don't have one mech I think can use in the situation you have provided to us, which is basically a mech unit specifically designed to siege strongpoints and cities.

#8 RedDragon

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Posted 04 March 2014 - 12:38 PM

Well, I guess you were the guy with that MRM-Carrier a while back, weren't you? If yes, the premises are the same. You can either min/max a build without any regard to plausibility and canon, but then you open the door for your enemy to do exactly the same and it results in a match of number crunching that hasn't much to do with BT at all.

Or - and this is the harder and much more satisfying way - you stay inside the confines of canon and "reality" and try to create a unit that is plausible in the context of BT and has a real use apart from "I invest all my resources in the best available units so I can win a single fight based on the hope that my enemy doesn't use unconventional means to render my high-tech builds useless".

Don't get me wrong, your build may be quite good – I'm not convinced, but I have not much experience with the stuff after 3060. But all you are doing is playing thought experiments, and therefore you must accept that your enemy can and will do the same. And that opens the door to so much cheesiness that it has nothing more to do with BT.

#9 CarnageINC

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Posted 04 March 2014 - 12:43 PM

View PostRedDragon, on 04 March 2014 - 12:38 PM, said:

Well, I guess you were the guy with that MRM-Carrier a while back, weren't you? If yes, the premises are the same. You can either min/max a build without any regard to plausibility and canon, but then you open the door for your enemy to do exactly the same and it results in a match of number crunching that hasn't much to do with BT at all.

Or - and this is the harder and much more satisfying way - you stay inside the confines of canon and "reality" and try to create a unit that is plausible in the context of BT and has a real use apart from "I invest all my resources in the best available units so I can win a single fight based on the hope that my enemy doesn't use unconventional means to render my high-tech builds useless".

Don't get me wrong, your build may be quite good – I'm not convinced, but I have not much experience with the stuff after 3060. But all you are doing is playing thought experiments, and therefore you must accept that your enemy can and will do the same. And that opens the door to so much cheesiness that it has nothing more to do with BT.


We have the same thought process on this RedDragon. PaintedWolf ideas of his mech deployment are very hypothetical and used in a narrow unflexable strategy. IMO there is no one mech that can do it all kind of thing out there. There are always counters and certain circumstances that take away options.

#10 LoPanShui

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Posted 04 March 2014 - 02:25 PM

I'm not certain about this build canonically or even on the tabletop for several reasons. While as a group, this is 400 tons of position holding siege equipment that is very self reliant, it does hold some very serious weaknesses. The first of which has to do with expense. These guys are extremely expensive, though not as much as the ultra expensive 'Mechs, and they are very well rounded and don't take up much dropship space, but their stated purpose, assaulting heavy facilities, leads towards the idea that they would not be faced with a force that is limited by dropship size.

Assaulting industrial facilities or hardened cities means they're probably fighting against a local, well fortified and supplied force that is permanently stationed at that facility. This could even include a whole company or multiple regiments, if it warrants the expense of multiple lances of these 'Mechs.

The main weakness I am seeing in these 'Mechs is going to be to VTOLs and Aerospace fighters, which will have the ability to move in without having to worry about the artillery bombardments and force the Lancea to change facing in order to engage the enemy's multiple vectors of attack, which severely reduces their effectiveness as an organized formation of weaponry.

Once their guns are pointed in different directions a combined arms force of Artillery, Armor, Infantry and Mechs would be able to advance and provide their own suppressing fire while forcing the Lanacea to either reform their artillery and energy weapon line, leaving their rear armor open to the AS and VTOLs, or try to split their attention between the two forces, thus keeping them from using their most powerful technique, massed artillery barrage.

They are a good artillery piece capable of working in tandem and defending themselves, but they are by no means capable of fending off a combined arms force of superior or even equal size. Once their enemy is no longer grouped up, but is coming at them from multiple vectors they begin coming apart.

While a good design, they're going to need a force of skirmishers to engage any enemies attempting to flank or they're gonna collapse.

#11 LoPanShui

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Posted 04 March 2014 - 02:29 PM

Also Battle Value is not arbitrary, but is, in fact, a complex mathematical equation taking into account every aspect of a unit. Here's an example and explanation for just weapons.

http://www.heavymeta...com/bv_calc.htm

#12 Karl Streiger

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Posted 05 March 2014 - 12:22 AM

Hm... i believe he mentioned that he did use "super vanilla" mech warriors and was able to beat the opponent BV

....well BV didn't work well at such level, when the opposite is forced to use the force sized modificator - the 0 gunnery pilots are more as capable of beating 9times its own BV:

For example when you have to place your bet:
1 Nova Cat Alt. A with a vanilla 0/0 pilot vs a company of rookie Panthers with 5/6 pilots - Its almost clear that the Nova Cat will win that fight

#13 Blood Rose

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Posted 05 March 2014 - 03:41 AM

Im sorry, but I have to put in with the majority. These Mechs are just too expensive. If you want a dedicated siege Mech, then I have two here that I created for line breaking http://solaris7.com/...fo.asp?ID=18787 http://solaris7.com/...fo.asp?ID=18820 both of these can do what your siege Mechs can, but they are cheaper and more cost effective. They can both break a siege, and crack a fortress wide open. Both can cause extremes of damage once within; establishing and widening the breach point. Your designs are not that bad, there just trying to be too much. Tone back on the expensive equipment and reorganise the stuff and make them cheaper. If you want feedback, join Solaris like I did. The feedback is excellent.

#14 CarnageINC

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Posted 05 March 2014 - 05:41 AM

Creating mechs is fun and all but overall I prefer the challenge of using stock builds or canon variants of them when playing TT. Being able to design a multi-function unit and then testing it in different combat situations is the real challenge.

Not many canon mech designs are 'optimized' and most player designs are. I recall most of the players that had brought their 'optimized' builds to gaming sessions expecting to face canon mechs on the field. Whats the challenge in that, let alone trying to convince other players to face those designs without 'optimized' builds of their own.

#15 Strum Wealh

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Posted 05 March 2014 - 07:59 AM

Actually, I'm somewhat surprised that the Lancea doesn't include a C3i System as well... :P

#16 CarnageINC

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Posted 05 March 2014 - 09:08 AM

View PostStrum Wealh, on 05 March 2014 - 07:59 AM, said:

Actually, I'm somewhat surprised that the Lancea doesn't include a C3i System as well... :P


Yeah, he would have to rework his design some. He would have to ditch 2.5 tones of equipment and free up 2 crits. Ditching the small ER would free up a crit but then what? I would just ditch the SRM/ammo, ER small plus a 1/2 ton of armor and put in the C3i and ECM if I were to ever want to use this design the way PaintedWolf has laid out.

#17 PaintedWolf

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Posted 05 March 2014 - 07:41 PM

View PostBlood Rose, on 05 March 2014 - 03:41 AM, said:

Im sorry, but I have to put in with the majority. These Mechs are just too expensive. If you want a dedicated siege Mech, then I have two here that I created for line breaking http://solaris7.com/...fo.asp?ID=18787 http://solaris7.com/...fo.asp?ID=18820 both of these can do what your siege Mechs can, but they are cheaper and more cost effective. They can both break a siege, and crack a fortress wide open. Both can cause extremes of damage once within; establishing and widening the breach point. Your designs are not that bad, there just trying to be too much. Tone back on the expensive equipment and reorganise the stuff and make them cheaper. If you want feedback, join Solaris like I did. The feedback is excellent.


So you are suggesting, that if I have a Battalion of my Mechs you will somehow have four Atlas's to every one of mine because they cost 7 million c-bills?

Think about that. You are talking about transporting and maintaining 144 Assault Mechs. A Union class Drop Ship can carry 15. You will need 10 Union Class Drop Ships. That means you will need another Jump Ship. You are taking 2 Jump Ships and 10 Drop Ships at that point to deal with a single battalion.

I suppose you can send in four Overlord class Drop Ships. That is still pretty expensive, especially if you are trying to save money. I would by contrast need 2 Unions or 1 Overlord. I could, for example, send a Jump Ship carrying Unions, 4-6, to 2-3 different planets, counting Drop Ships also used for support infantry.

So consider, I need my Mechs plus 1-2 other Drop Ships for an Assault or Relief force, you need 3-4 just for the Mechs.

Unless you are really going to do that, you will not be outnumbering my forces 3-4 to one, it just costs too much in Capital resources.

At most, you will get 2-1, but then again, you are giving up a Drop Ship that could be used for other things. I personally like to bring at least some infantry and aerospace.

Edited by PaintedWolf, 05 March 2014 - 07:55 PM.


#18 Karl Streiger

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Posted 06 March 2014 - 12:45 AM

Well yo made a vaild point... i need a lot of Mechs to dig you out... but when you bring Overlords and Unions into play:
My 4 Overlords - will have 24 Aerosspace Fighter -while your battailon transport will only have 6:

Means i get air supperiority = you are dead - or i don't even play arround with Mechs and Aerospace fighter- hell I'm with the Word - we simple use a WarShip.... while more expensive - i don't have to bother with transportation :huh:

OK - enough e-peen:
Do you really want to use them in a game - more important do you have a friend that want to face those things?

#19 CarnageINC

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Posted 06 March 2014 - 07:04 AM

View PostPaintedWolf, on 05 March 2014 - 07:41 PM, said:


So you are suggesting, that if I have a Battalion of my Mechs you will somehow have four Atlas's to every one of mine because they cost 7 million c-bills?

Think about that. You are talking about transporting and maintaining 144 Assault Mechs. A Union class Drop Ship can carry 15. You will need 10 Union Class Drop Ships. That means you will need another Jump Ship. You are taking 2 Jump Ships and 10 Drop Ships at that point to deal with a single battalion.

I suppose you can send in four Overlord class Drop Ships. That is still pretty expensive, especially if you are trying to save money. I would by contrast need 2 Unions or 1 Overlord. I could, for example, send a Jump Ship carrying Unions, 4-6, to 2-3 different planets, counting Drop Ships also used for support infantry.

So consider, I need my Mechs plus 1-2 other Drop Ships for an Assault or Relief force, you need 3-4 just for the Mechs.

Unless you are really going to do that, you will not be outnumbering my forces 3-4 to one, it just costs too much in Capital resources.

At most, you will get 2-1, but then again, you are giving up a Drop Ship that could be used for other things. I personally like to bring at least some infantry and aerospace.


PaintedWolf, I would just build my own 100 Ton mechs, have AMS, ECM, and C3i. My mech would be faster than your 3/4 (yes I said 3/4, if they were running hot then it would be 3/5). Since I wouldn't be running Hardened armor, i wouldn't have to worry about falling over more often then yours. Mine would also be less ammo depended then your mech (im thinking long term strategy) and I would make them cheaper.

Then it comes down to tactics at the tactical and strategic level.

#20 RedDragon

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Posted 06 March 2014 - 12:30 PM

View PostCarnageINC, on 06 March 2014 - 07:04 AM, said:


PaintedWolf, I would just build my own 100 Ton mechs, have AMS, ECM, and C3i. My mech would be faster than your 3/4 (yes I said 3/4, if they were running hot then it would be 3/5). Since I wouldn't be running Hardened armor, i wouldn't have to worry about falling over more often then yours. Mine would also be less ammo depended then your mech (im thinking long term strategy) and I would make them cheaper.

Then it comes down to tactics at the tactical and strategic level.

Or you could just get some good alrounder mechs and hot drop them on top of his force. Even hardened armor won't save his mechs as soon as you are in close combat range. And with their crawling land speed they will be an easy target for counter artillery and air strikes, not to speak of infantry, battle armor and mines.

Fun Fact: A Union drop ship has only slightly more BV than one of the OPs mechs, so you can easily match his forces with an adequate mech force and still have plenty BV to charter an Union or two to drop your mechs on his (not to forget that you'll have a drop ship packed with guns supporting you if you wish).





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