135 replies to this topic

[Valar13]

Socop, on 10 February 2015 - 01:52 AM, said:

The irony is we spent our drop time tonight coordinating with Marik HC, and we finish to find an unrelated marik player questioning our commitment to working with them.

I especially get the impression you in particularly think I have it out for you guys. I regret that it comes across that way at times.

hopterque, on 10 February 2015 - 02:05 AM, said:

Yeah sure we should join the star league the one thing we really need is a pile of incompetent davion and steiner units throwing matches on the clan border in addition to the pugs already losing match after match. We could lose territory to the clans even more quickly than we do already, what a no brainer that is.

And as if on cue, the guy I was thinking of arrives. "Everyone but us is bads, the border defenders throw matches because Kurita is persecuted by the bads"

You want to know who was on your border tonight?

I was, along with at least 11 other Mariks.

So you can stuff it, hopterque.

[Scoops Kerensky]

We can't change everyone's opinion at the end of the day. Our actions have to speak for us in-game. That includes talking to people, trying to listen to opinions from outside, and balance them with what both members of the high council want and what our playerbase is willing to put up with.

If we put off an air of superiority collectively as a house then I can't stop you from assuming that. I can, however, ask that you'd get to know us as individuals and play or talk with us in person before making that kind of sweeping judgement, especially when we're supposed to be allies and friends.

EDIT: These forums are very estranged from the actual game itself and people's personalities 'in person' and it'd be a mistake to take what you see here as reality.

Edited by Socop, 10 February 2015 - 02:09 AM.

[Valar13]

Socop, on 10 February 2015 - 02:07 AM, said:

We can't change everyone's opinion at the end of the day. Our actions have to speak for us in-game. That includes talking to people, trying to listen to opinions from outside, and balance them with what both members of the high council want and what our playerbase is willing to put up with.

If we put off an air of superiority collectively as a house then I can't stop you from assuming that. I can, however, ask that you'd get to know us as individuals and play or talk with us in person before making that kind of sweeping judgement, especially when we're supposed to be allies and friends.

Fair enough. And I'd love the chance to do so. To reiterate, I have nothing but the utmost respect for 95.8% of your people. It's the isolationists among you that are the problem. Kurita has held out better than most, but you can't do it alone forever. And we could use your strength as well. I don't see this thing succeeding without the abundantly demonstrated prowess of Kurita players. You're the hammer our anvil is waiting for, or something to that effect.

We want to help, but part of that help being delivered sincerely from Davion/Steiner as well (and yes, in spite of hopterque's insistence to the contrary, their help is both needed and appreciated) comes at the expense of at least discussing not referring to everyone else in the League as "bads" and accusing them of intentionally losing to spite Kurita.

Edited by Valar13, 10 February 2015 - 02:12 AM.

[hopterque]

Valar13, on 10 February 2015 - 02:06 AM, said:

You want to know who was on your border tonight?

I was, along with at least 11 other Mariks.

So you can stuff it, hopterque.

Thanks for losing matches on our border Valar, we appreciate it. Also, we have allies, and spent the night working closely with units in Marik's high command, but I guess you wouldn't know anything about that since you're not actually involved with anything important within the faction you fled to a week ago because you couldn't handle losing to us night after night with the rest of the Fedcom Pigs.

[Valar13]

I also ask that you give me as much benefit of the doubt on things I type hastily in between talking with about 15 people from 5 different units in private message or live fights in-game. Nuance is something I don't always have time for, and that's probably unfortunate.

hopterque, on 10 February 2015 - 02:12 AM, said:

Thanks for losing matches on our border Valar, we appreciate it. Also, we have allies, and spent the night working closely with units in Marik's high command, but I guess you wouldn't know anything about that since you're not actually involved with anything important within the faction you fled to a week ago because you couldn't handle losing to us night after night with the rest of the Fedcom Pigs.

I know more than you might think, jackass.

[hopterque]

So you're saying that you're getting mad that we weren't on the border helping you despite knowing that we were working hand in hand with actual decision makers in your faction trying to do relatively important things?

e: That was a little rude, actually, my apologies. I just wanted to point out that you're either dumb or a liar trying to save face.

Edited by hopterque, 10 February 2015 - 02:25 AM.

[Scoops Kerensky]

Valar13, on 10 February 2015 - 02:11 AM, said:

Fair enough. And I'd love the chance to do so. To reiterate, I have nothing but the utmost respect for 95.8% of your people. It's the isolationists among you that are the problem. Kurita has held out better than most, but you can't do it alone forever. And we could use your strength as well. I don't see this thing succeeding without the abundantly demonstrated prowess of Kurita players. You're the hammer our anvil is waiting for, or something to that effect.

We want to help, but part of that help being delivered sincerely from Davion/Steiner as well (and yes, in spite of hopterque's insistence to the contrary, their help is both needed and appreciated) comes at the expense of at least discussing not referring to everyone else in the League as "bads" and accusing them of intentionally losing to spite Kurita.

People are free to say what they'd like to say - I could tell Hopter to knock this all off in a heartbeat but I'm not playing this game to police the behavior of others.

Part of what he and several others say is based on very personal experiences where, while not allowed to name names, we've seen organized groups of davion and steiner players in the past throw matches on our borders or even straight up d/c from the game as soon as the match started, leaving us down 6 or more men. That sort of stigma is long lasting when people go out of their way to metagame screwing you over when you're down.

I'm personally sure you and the other 11 Marik players were doing your best to assist us, and I'm thankful for it. At the end of the day that's all that we need is for people to drop together to help fight something. These rule systems, long form forum posts, and arguing over minutiae and byzantine rule systems are a distraction. Let's just get in there and fight together if that's what everyone wants - without all these preconditions and demands of each other.

[hopterque]

Valar13, on 10 February 2015 - 02:11 AM, said:

We want to help, but part of that help being delivered sincerely from Davion/Steiner as well (and yes, in spite of hopterque's insistence to the contrary, their help is both needed and appreciated)

How many different people are you claiming to speak for here? The only thing I need and appreciate Davion and to a lesser degree Steiner for is how easily they roll over and cry when we come take their planets. I appreciate Marik because they've shown willingness and initiative in our efforts together. I appreciate the various mercenary groups that have joined us recently and are making a real difference.
I don't appreciate Davion players who whine and cry and throw matches on purpose and do everything they can to sabotage the efforts of the suddenly Big Bad and Scary Kuritans who a month ago were completely at their mercy. You reap what you sow, and your former Davion comrades really were pretty thorough in their mercilessness when we were weak.

[Valar13]

hopterque, on 10 February 2015 - 02:38 AM, said:

How many different people are you claiming to speak for here? The only thing I need and appreciate Davion and to a lesser degree Steiner for is how easily they roll over and cry when we come take their planets. I appreciate Marik because they've shown willingness and initiative in our efforts together. I appreciate the various mercenary groups that have joined us recently and are making a real difference.
I don't appreciate Davion players who whine and cry and throw matches on purpose and do everything they can to sabotage the efforts of the suddenly Big Bad and Scary Kuritans who a month ago were completely at their mercy. You reap what you sow, and your former Davion comrades really were pretty thorough in their mercilessness when we were weak.

I speak for no one but myself when I say that fostering animosity and being derogatory for the sake of being derogatory is not making a long-term investment in the community. Care about it or don't, how fun is the game going to be when it's just you and your buddies playing because everyone else got tired of the negativity?

Yes, Davion capitalized on your weaknesses, and 228 capitalized on theirs when they were a leading unit in your faction. There's definitely a history there. The difference here is that they as part of agreeing to the Star League are offering an olive branch and you, not all of Kurita, but you and people like you, are beating them across the face with it.

[Valar13]

Socop, on 10 February 2015 - 02:27 AM, said:

People are free to say what they'd like to say - I could tell Hopter to knock this all off in a heartbeat but I'm not playing this game to police the behavior of others.

Part of what he and several others say is based on very personal experiences where, while not allowed to name names, we've seen organized groups of davion and steiner players in the past throw matches on our borders or even straight up d/c from the game as soon as the match started, leaving us down 6 or more men. That sort of stigma is long lasting when people go out of their way to metagame screwing you over when you're down.

I'm personally sure you and the other 11 Marik players were doing your best to assist us, and I'm thankful for it. At the end of the day that's all that we need is for people to drop together to help fight something. These rule systems, long form forum posts, and arguing over minutiae and byzantine rule systems are a distraction. Let's just get in there and fight together if that's what everyone wants - without all these preconditions and demands of each other.

And I'm not doubting that happened, but it was by no means confined to Davion. The general unspoken concensus among Southern IS houses on clan defense used to be "it's not our world so it doesn't matter."

This new alliance calls for better, because it's not succeeding if people are giving up and letting the defenses falter, thereby draining the resources of Kurita/FRR/Steiner attackers - and if it's not succeeding, it's going to fall apart pretty quickly. There will be a time to sort out the blame and get revenge on all sides of the Inner Sphere, but the facts are simple. Look to your neighbor to the left to see how close it came to effectively losing an entire faction to the Clans. We just want to push them back far enough to create some breathing room for the Inner Sphere before they're all the way to Terra and out the other end, and CW turns into Clan Warfare, where you might as well buy Clan Mechs if you haven't already, because the IS getting overrun is a foregone conclusion. It's in my understanding at least partially about showing the strength of the IS in order to ensure morale and populations stay up.

I can also tell you from being in the vast majority of Davion's CW efforts until the past week that throwing those matches or even going to the Kurita/CSJ border at all was not a sanctioned AFFS action. If people chose to do that on their own time, that's their poor sportsmanship and not the entire faction's.

Edited by Valar13, 10 February 2015 - 02:54 AM.

[Mordin Ashe]

So... there is drama even outside the Clans? Now that is a surprise...

Guys, please, take what I say and make your plans accordingly. There are mercs switching factions as they see fit, making a name for themselves. CGB has it with MS, Kurita and FRR enjoyed a fair share of this in the past too. You can't prevent it, you can't do anything about it, it will happen. It is something that will always be there.

Now that this is set up, diplomacy should take this into account. Don't make relations with other factions without thinking through all the "what ifs". All relations should take into account cases when one group switches factions and easily conquers a world under NAP. There is also possibility of certain folks leaving for other faction, intentionally hurting their original motherland because drama and stuff. This is why you need to create your relations based on relative positions of both sides, not absolute line like "you conquer this planet and it is a war".

Learn from how CGB ended. We were originally the strongest, and without having a say in the matter we ended up fighting wars that we technically had nothing to do with. Plus, most of our active playerbase went to IS or Mercs because Clan Mechs are boring and so on. We made two mistakes (expectation of absolute ceasefire among Clans, ignoring shifting playerbase) and we failed miserably, paying for it by gaining status of the weakest Clan right now.

Don't make our mistakes. Learn and adapt!

Edited by Mordin Ashe, 10 February 2015 - 03:00 AM.

[hopterque]

Yeah units of the AFFS only throw matches accidentally because they're bad.

Valar13, on 10 February 2015 - 02:46 AM, said:

I speak for no one but myself when I say that fostering animosity and being derogatory for the sake of being derogatory is not making a long-term investment in the community. Care about it or don't, how fun is the game going to be when it's just you and your buddies playing because everyone else got tired of the negativity?

Oh no, not animosity and friction in this game about a bunch of disparate factions at war with each other for centuries, whatever will we do. Everyone play nice and hug and be best friends and when you get in matches make sure to type out fake salutes and be as honorable as possible. Or we could have fun and talk trash and call each other names and plot dastardly things and have a way better time, idk.

[Valar13]

Or you could treat it as what it is - a game. There's a space for RP and all that good stuff, but you don't respect your opponents. You don't value their presence and you don't invest in that presence continuing. I was always taught to do those things. To play to win, but to respect everyone else who showed up to play and the effort they put in. Maybe you were just raised poorly, I dunno.

But I'll tell you how it looked from the other side.

Marik and Davion are old enemies, too. There was plenty of FedRat vs Purple Chicken shittalking going around there too - but it was within limits and both sides actively looked forward to jumping on that border because we all knew everyone was going to have a good time, because there was a mutual respect there and the perspective that it was, at the end of the day, JUST a game.

But no one wanted to volunteer for Drac duty, because quite frankly a lot of you (AGAIN I REITERATE not ALL of you) established yourselves as personality-devoid epeen strokers with zero decorum early on. Going up there was a misery that burned out about a quarter of our playerbase because of the seeming overabundance of dickbags up that way. No one wanted to play against you - not because we would lose, but because we couldn't stand you.

I guess it's up to you whether you want the friendly rivalry Marik/Davion share where everyone has fun and wants to be a part of it, or to be the guys no one really wants to hang out with. /shrug

Edited by Valar13, 10 February 2015 - 03:17 AM.

[Valar13]

hopterque, on 10 February 2015 - 02:20 AM, said:

So you're saying that you're getting mad that we weren't on the border helping you despite knowing that we were working hand in hand with actual decision makers in your faction trying to do relatively important things?

e: That was a little rude, actually, my apologies. I just wanted to point out that you're either dumb or a liar trying to save face.

Also, I'm still not talking about your performance vs. the Clans, just your attitude.

[hopterque]

I think where you go wrong is assuming that just because you and your whiny baby friends are offended by our brash and bold openness and overwhelming handsomeness, everyone else is too, when clearly this isn't the case at all. We had a great time playing with Grizzly and his guys last night and I would wager they feel the same way. In fact, from what I can tell, not a whole lot of people that matter are particularly upset with the way we carry ourselves, because we back up our confident talk with our play. The people who are mad are people like you and mischief, people who can't handle it when people better than them let them know how things stand when they try to act like they have something important to contribute to the state of the game.


Let me be as frank as I can be. You're garbage, and you haven't said a single thing that matters, and you basically either need to suck it down or get out of the way while the rest of us get on with the business of fighting each other and having a good time and stop crying every time the mean Kuritans don't listen to your pathetic mewling advice and suggestions, ex-davion rat.

Dear Coordinator says, "once a Fedcom Rat, always a Fedcom Rat, and All Fedcom Rats Must Hang"

[Valar13]

hopterque, on 10 February 2015 - 03:56 AM, said:

I think where you go wrong is assuming that just because you and your whiny baby friends are offended by our brash and bold openness and overwhelming handsomeness, everyone else is too, when clearly this isn't the case at all. We had a great time playing with Grizzly and his guys last night and I would wager they feel the same way. In fact, from what I can tell, not a whole lot of people that matter are particularly upset with the way we carry ourselves, because we back up our confident talk with our play. The people who are mad are people like you and mischief, people who can't handle it when people better than them let them know how things stand when they try to act like they have something important to contribute to the state of the game.


Let me be as frank as I can be. You're garbage, and you haven't said a single thing that matters, and you basically either need to suck it down or get out of the way while the rest of us get on with the business of fighting each other and having a good time and stop crying every time the mean Kuritans don't listen to your pathetic mewling advice and suggestions, ex-davion rat.

Dear Coordinator says, "once a Fedcom Rat, always a Fedcom Rat, and All Fedcom Rats Must Hang"

enjoymymiddlefingerwhileiignoreyourtransparentflamebait.jpg

You talk like there haven't been people in other factions than Davion who have questioned the way you present yourselves in-game and on the forums. The personae are one thing. The massiveness of the epeens is another thing entirely.

I never pretended to be the best player in this game, because I know I couldn't back it up. I think you mostly just need a good paddling and a time-out, but I'm also not a childcare expert.

Edited by Valar13, 10 February 2015 - 04:01 AM.

[Valar13]

That said, as much as I'm not a fan of people who actively aim for the most toxic community they can manage, I'm not willing to abandon it to people like you who want everyone to hate being here and no one but yourselves to enjoy it. So get used to me. You'll probably see a lot of me, especially as I make more effort to reach out to members of your faction with an interest in not letting raging a**holes represent them and more maturity than a 16-year-old just growing the balls to swear in front of daddy.

Edited by Valar13, 10 February 2015 - 04:05 AM.

[hopterque]

Ironic since you're the one using naughty swear words, friend.

Also I don't think posting two paragraphs in response counts as ignoring my post, but I'll have to check with my supervisor.

Edited by hopterque, 10 February 2015 - 04:09 AM.

[Valar13]

I'm not your friend, actually. Would you like me to be?

And I did ignore the flamebait, and responded to the rest.

Edited by Valar13, 10 February 2015 - 04:14 AM.

[Valar13]

Actually, I'm going to have to call it a night here. But if you'd like to continue our journey towards friendship, I'll be back tomorrow. 'Night, new self-proclaimed friend.