254 replies to this topic

[Void Angel]

So much silly out of a superficial resemblance to a totally different game format... It's an attack/defend map, for the love of Blake. Anyone who goes on about "terrible map design" should understand what that entails - particularly when referencing a popular game in an attempt to claim that the "type" of map design isn't fun...

If you dislike a game mode, or the maps for it, offer up a reasonable criticism that shows you understand the issue and offer a solution.

/unfollow

[pbiggz]

1 sec making much better map in M$ paint

[Davers]

Rebas Kradd, on 03 February 2015 - 06:04 PM, said:

So they aren't interested in scouting after all?

Not according to one of their first Dev posts. I think it was #0 where they talk about their plans. The one where they talk about map design that was supposed to curtail circle strafing.

[oldradagast]

Void Angel, on 03 February 2015 - 06:08 PM, said:

So much silly out of a superficial resemblance to a totally different game format... It's an attack/defend map, for the love of Blake. Anyone who goes on about "terrible map design" should understand what that entails - particularly when referencing a popular game in an attempt to claim that the "type" of map design isn't fun...

If you dislike a game mode, or the maps for it, offer up a reasonable criticism that shows you understand the issue and offer a solution.

/unfollow

Because good map design - particularly for a game mode that supposedly tries to achieve a higher level of "skill" - doesn't consist of mindlessly funneling targets - I mean, "players" - through kill zones?

Of course, people will reply with "Well, of course the map is built that way - that's how the defenders would do it!'

That's nice, but no actual attackers would ever send 12 mechs vs. 12 mechs + kill zones + turrets. Such an attack be would nothing but a waste of resources. Look it up - standard military procedure is to outnumber a hardened defender by 3 to 5 to one. In short, realism went right out the door when 12 mechs dropped per team, so all we're left with is trying to make a fun game, not a realistic one.

Nope, the current maps encourage stagnant, repetitive game-play and heavily favor camping out, covering the kill zones that are so painfully obvious. It's simply not fun, and thus is bad map design for a game.

Edited by oldradagast, 03 February 2015 - 06:14 PM.

[NeoAres]

Can't they just port some MW3/MW4 maps into MWO? I mean, is that copyright infringement?

I would love to get some of the MW4 Solaris maps into MWO. Factory, Jungle, Coliseum, Ishiyama (was user-created but still awesome), what joys they would bring.

However, the thing that would best help map design in MWO most would be destructible cover. Somebody hiding behind a building all game to snipe? Blow it up! Logs and carcasses got you tangled up in the Bog? Blow them up! Can't see because of all the trees? Blow those up too. Those @#%#^#%% pipes in Caustic and Tourmaline making barriers for you? Trample right through them! Sniper n00bs parking themselves on top of the platform in Crimson? Blow it up and send them plummeting. Destructible environments opens the game up to on-demand map remodeling to meet your needs and puts the snipe game is a worse and worse position as the game goes on. Better for everyone.

[Wingbreaker]

oldradagast, on 03 February 2015 - 06:12 PM, said:

Nope, the current maps encourage stagnant, repetitive game-play and heavily favor camping out, covering the kill zones that are so painfully obvious. It's simply not fun, and thus is bad map design for a game.

As a taccom officer for a major CJF unit, this is absolutely not the case. Repetitive use of tactics in these maps lends to adaptation from enemy units, creating a need for a plethora of different usages of the map from both ends. We continue to find good, previously unused points that give different niche advantages.

If you can only see one choke-point, that is on yourself, not the maps.

/Okay, defensive maneuvers on Sulfurous are ****, but that map needs a rework in general.

Edited by Wingbreaker, 03 February 2015 - 06:18 PM.

[MoonUnitBeta]

AUSwarrior24, on 03 February 2015 - 06:06 PM, said:

True, but I suppose what I want to see are bases which are comprised of actual walls, rather than just sitting in craters or canyons. Perhaps have the base in the middle of the map, and have three gates on varying sides. I'm sure it'd be difficult to balance a map like that, but it'll also lead to much more varied and immersive play.

Yeah. PGI kinda dug themselves into a hole though with needing to destroy generators to open the doors. And no way to close the gates once their opened...
I'm sure just being able to reclose gates by repairing generators some how would add something more to the game mode.
Heck, why stop there. Lets us repair the turrets, repair the orbital canon. ZOMG! That's too much to ask. I know. Something as engaging as that. Maybe that's too risque, because it's something to do other than shoot mechs.
Game modes in CW are so stripped down it's no reason they're boring.

[Summon3r]

agree fully with OP.... why not some alpine'ish maps?

[MeiSooHaityu]

But...but...I like DoTA and I like that map.

[pbiggz]

The primary issue with this map is simple. The area in the yellow square, is the ONLY PLACE you see combat, while the area in the purple square rarely sees combat at all, save for the end of games in which pugs have been extra-rolled. Same with Boreal Vault, same with Helbore Springs. Such a massive swathe of the map is rendered nothing more than a time delay for the attacking team. Why design all that space if you wont even use it, it looks marvelous on the new map and its a ******* shame it goes to waste.



Not meant to be a be-all-end-all map, but just an example of how simple it could be to make a more interesting CW map. Take note, although there are gates that serve as moderate choke points, there are no LANES and there are plenty of options inside the base as well as outside for cover from fire and stealth.This ENTIRE map has strategic value, not just the gates as choke points. If you wanted to attack the south gate you could circle wide around and the buildings would give you cover, if you wanted to attack the north gate AND west gate you could split your forces under the cover of the cliffs. If you wanted to attrition you could use the river and lake to help you cool down, its these sorts of things that make the outside of the base far more interesting, and once inside, its not merely choke points.

The c3 gate in Helbore springs is awesome, it has lots of places where attackers and defenders alike can circle around and hit you from the rear, while the G3 gate has no such thing, and is just a bottleneck for lurm boats and snipers. Let the inside of the base be a place for pure brawling, where the defenders and attackers can both use narrow streets or passes that circle around one another to try to get the advantage on their opponents. Highlander's frustration comes purely from the map being so much less than it could be.

Edited by pbiggz, 03 February 2015 - 06:39 PM.

[Mister Blastman]

NotMwHighlander, on 03 February 2015 - 05:30 PM, said:

/snip

Thank goodness someone else sees all this madness for what it is!

Deathlike, on 03 February 2015 - 05:52 PM, said:

The common theme from every map in this game is that it is totally uninspired in terms of how it plays out. All it has going for it is that "it looks pretty".

I've seen better map designs in older MW games (at least MW4) and it's just sad that virtually every map can be NASCARed in some way leaving to predictable movement and expected results (for the most part).

For a thinking man's shooter, not much thinking is done here.

I've seen better map design in Mechwarrior 2: Mercenaries--both the stock maps and especially user-made ones.

[TheSilken]

Just go to Microsoft overlords, ask if they can use the old MW4 map designs and create versions for MWO, patch them in, done insta happy.

[Ghogiel]

Brody319, on 03 February 2015 - 05:40 PM, said:

problem is LoL, Dota, and every other moba that uses this system have 2 sides attacking each other. not one attacking the other while the other defends. it would be like any MOBA if all turrets went to one team.

If you aren't attacking when playing defense on CW you are doing it wrong. Jump the gate and get farming.

[Tony Benoit]

Mister Blastman, on 03 February 2015 - 06:38 PM, said:

Thank goodness someone else sees all this madness for what it is!



I've seen better map design in Mechwarrior 2: Mercenaries--both the stock maps and especially user-made ones.

Its as if the guys making these maps have never seen what a "good" map layout is. And as for those people saying "most FPS are based around the 3 lane concept", oh you mean like Call of Doodoo? Yeah, because those maps are great for a supposedly tactical mecha combat....


Here's a video of a good open map that THIS GAME HAS POTENTIAL FOR on a nearly identical game engine, mind you. It even has mechs, too!






The last one being made by a Mecha Community member based on the MW4 "Gatorbait" map, all on cryengine. There is no excuse for the piss poor map designs in this game.

Edited by NotMwHighlander, 03 February 2015 - 06:51 PM.

[pbiggz]

Dont forget extremity! It has real map conditions.

[Ghogiel]

I used to knock some of Sanny's maps, but after seeing and playing so many maps for MWLL, even some of his weaker maps rate as some of the better maps for the game.

[jlawsl]

I still don't see the point of the generators. Its one of the most annoying mechanics to think about. If electronic bank vaults and other electronic locks just opened when power was cut, that would be the most pointless protection in the world. What, does the base have a child safety mechanism on its doors? Just make the door destructible and defenders able to get up on the wall, not some far hill. If they want to overwatch on the attacker's approach, they do so at their own peril.

That, and why do people insist on "cover" for a 5 story tall robot? Lights and small mediums, maybe, but fix the darn hit boxes, heavies and assaults, use that armor and those weapons. The abundant cover in most maps causes 90% of the stupidity, from hiding, to poptarting, more hiding, stalling, etc. I know they don't want this supposed problem of circle strafing, but now they just have a problem with circle jerk-ring around the rosie, musical chairs play. Cover should be sparse and cause tactical movement and loadouts. You would see more centralized use of ecm and ams even in solo games. Lrms wouldn't be too much of an issue because they would probably be visible, but they would also be viable against exposed targets. It would force teams to move from cover to cover together. Speed of lights and mediums would come into play more, but that one super-loanwolf xX420noscopeXx1334 firestarter would have to think twice before running off with a small pulse laser boat. They could actually be used to scout cover, or places to safely pass while harassing enemies from the rear, because the map could be bigger without all of the clutter. Hiding would be hard, because their would be few places to actually hide.

Yeah, it may favor long range mechs to an extent, but a large map with a few hills and open spaces would actually start people thinking. And with that, the objectives could be in or on the sparse structures-like bridges, comm buildings, ridges-stuff that would make sense to take control of. Players would naturally fight over the most advantageous points instead of taking an objective, then running off because it was intentionally put in a kill zone.

I think they should at least try one. Something like alpine. Level the most of the hills to ground level, add plenty of tree stands, then make the rest of the hills smaller and rolling smoothly. Add some small clusters of buildings and have at it. Maybe even a shallow lake in the middle. Bet that would stop rushing to the center, or perhaps it would be used to cross if the other team doesn't pay attention.

Either way, make players think, turning every map into a repetitive twitch session, knowing the one course of action everyone is going to do, is getting old. A bigger map would also weaken the deathballing that wins most games. You deathball with everyone, you aren't gonna make it to enough objectives fast enough. Turn it back into a game where lances are viable units and not an all or nothing mentality based on the range of med lasers and ac20s.

[jlawsl]

But then I remembered, selling mechs makes money, maps don't. A small, quick, easy, copy and pasted map is easier to balance.

[Greyboots]

My opinion of course but: Map design in this game is just fine for what's supposed to be going on.

You're dropping into random maps with random attributes and no way to set your loadout to be map specific. It's bad enough now dropping into certain maps that make mockeries of certain loadouts while favouring others. The game already pushes everything towards generic enough without map design making things even worse for us. At least I can be sure that whether I'm set up as ranged, balanced, support or brawler I'll always be useful. The last thing I want at this stage is to have to take a "balanced approach" build each and every time and play every game exactly the same way.

So yes, many of the fights end up in the same place every single time but how the fights play out change.

If I could set, say, 3 loadouts for each mech and choose which I used after I knew which map I was going to be playing on? Sure, I'd love "better" maps. As it stands though the funneling of mechs is actually needed for this game to be even reasonably fun.

Then again, I also have to say that unimaginative players are kind of part of the problem too. There's may unused places on maps that are great for fighting on but 90% of games always take place in the same place anyway. Players just think there's a "best spot" and as soon as the game starts that's where they charge off to because "that's how you do it". Especially in PUGs where it's hard to get people organised anyway.

Without some major overhauls to how MWO is set out I don't think we're in for any "great maps" any time soon and, to be honest, I don't think it's such a terribly good idea either.

Yep! It's probably a minority view and I'm gunna get pounded for saying it (probably) but there's my 2 cents anyway .

[Soy]

MWO is pretty boring when you think about it. Like uhhh... isolate the actual game play and it's hard to deny that a lot of it is spent, well, basically idling behind a rock. It's basically same thing as banksitting.

In fact I'd say that an average NFL game has roughly the same percentage of downtime (hands on hips)... what is it like, 3 hours of downtime, half an hour of actual people moving? Oh but it's "so action packed". Some people say the same thing about golf on TV. All in the perspective, I guess.

Anyways...

When I find the MWO linear experience to be too limiting - which is a near constant but you find ways to deny it, lets be honest - or if I find myself fighting an urge to actually 'explore' or 'scout' (concepts which are foreign in MWO) something in my mech... well, I can always fire up the olll trusty MechCommander. In fact, I think I'll do that now...