122 replies to this topic

[Void2258]

Which is better?

[NeoxRave]

It depends. The LB-10 X-AC is better for getting critical hits on open hull, and it weighs one ton less, but it isn't very good at range because of its shotgun mechanic, whereas the AC/10 can hit pinpoint targets better from any range. IMO, go with the AC/10 if you're driving a slower mech and the LB-10 X-AC if you're driving a faster one.

In a nutshell, it depends on what you want to do.

[_____]

They're completely different weapons. LB-10X really has an effective range of about 100m. Any further than that it spreads too much to do concentrated damage. Its purpose is to crit seek on armor-less components. AC10 is a mid-range weapon meant to penetrate armor.

To prove it to yourself, stand 300m, 200m, and 100 meters from an Atlas in training grounds and hold down the fire button. See how many shots it takes to bring it down with an LB-10X vs an AC10.

[Wintersdark]

Quite simply put, the LBX is worse, in almost every situation, by a huge margin. Critical hits are grossly misunderstood by the player base at large, and you should never take a weapon because of "crit seeking".



The LBX is superior, very slightly, in one very specific situation. That is: you are within 100 meters, your target has no armor on your target component, and you're not concerned with actually destroying particular items. In this very specific circumstance,where all the pellets will impact the target unarmored component, then the LBX will do on average slightly higher structural damage done.

If you hope to destroy items, an AC10 is better. If you want to use it past 100m,or against targets with armor, an AC10 is better.

As you start matches beyond 100m and against Mechs with armor, the advantages of the AC10 push it far beyond the LBX, even if you're using it both at range and close.

Note that this is discussing the IS weapons, clan weapons are more complex.

[Void2258]

One other area you guys have forgotten is suppressive fire. The LBX will hit most things you vaguely point it at, and most people will instinctively duck under cover at any hit. Thus you can mitigate incoming fire volume using the LBX at medium range.

My Shadowhawk Brawler/Suppressor: http://mwo.smurfy-ne...3be1c3cdc4a3dc9

Edited by Void2258, 31 December 2014 - 06:20 PM.

[Wintersdark]

Void2258, on 31 December 2014 - 06:15 PM, said:

One other area you guys have forgotten is suppressive fire. The LBX will hit most things you vaguely point it at, and most people will instinctively duck under cover at any hit. Thus you can mitigate incoming fire volume using the LBX at medium range.

My Shadowhawk Brawler/Suppressor: http://mwo.smurfy-ne...3be1c3cdc4a3dc9

A regular AC10 still hits hard and shakes. It's better at suppression by dint of actually causing worthwhile damage while it suppresses.

[InspectorG]

Wintersdark, on 31 December 2014 - 05:40 PM, said:

Quite simply put, the LBX is worse, in almost every situation, by a huge margin. Critical hits are grossly misunderstood by the player base at large, and you should never take a weapon because of "crit seeking".



The LBX is superior, very slightly, in one very specific situation. That is: you are within 100 meters, your target has no armor on your target component, and you're not concerned with actually destroying particular items. In this very specific circumstance,where all the pellets will impact the target unarmored component, then the LBX will do on average slightly higher structural damage done.

If you hope to destroy items, an AC10 is better. If you want to use it past 100m,or against targets with armor, an AC10 is better.

As you start matches beyond 100m and against Mechs with armor, the advantages of the AC10 push it far beyond the LBX, even if you're using it both at range and close.

Note that this is discussing the IS weapons, clan weapons are more complex.

Far easier to Crit with a 20damage pinpoint alpha...

[TercieI]

NeoxRave, on 31 December 2014 - 04:58 PM, said:

It depends. The LB-10 X-AC is better for getting critical hits on open hull, and it weighs one ton less, but it isn't very good at range because of its shotgun mechanic, whereas the AC/10 can hit pinpoint targets better from any range. IMO, go with the AC/10 if you're driving a slower mech and the LB-10 X-AC if you're driving a faster one.

In a nutshell, it depends on what you want to do.

It really doesn't. The LB-10 X is pretty much garbage.

[Wintersdark]

InspectorG, on 31 December 2014 - 06:39 PM, said:

Far easier to Crit with a 20damage pinpoint alpha...

well, not easier to crit, but easier to destroy things. A 10pt hit will do 1 to 3 10 point crits, destroying 1-3 items (as only the ac20 has more than 10 health, and virtually everything else has 10). The LBX will get more crits, but each individual crit does only 2 damage (because of the damage bonus, otherwise it'd be 1). Those small crits are randomly distributed, so they'll tend to wear items down gradually. This increases the likelihood that you'll just destroy the Mech's component before the items.

Further, you get a crit roll even if only a small amount of damage is done to structure. So, an AC10 that hits a component with 9.9 Armour remaining can still do 3 10 point critical hits. For the LBX in that situation, you'll only have one pellet with a chance for crits, so 1 to 3 2 point damage crits doing minor damage randomly spread.


It's frustrating because so few people understand how crits work, then go about trumpeting the values of "crit seeking" leading to grossly mislead new players and reinforcing the ignorance.

[Wintersdark]

NeoxRave, on 31 December 2014 - 04:58 PM, said:

It depends. The LB-10 X-AC is better for getting critical hits on open hull, and it weighs one ton less, but it isn't very good at range because of its shotgun mechanic, whereas the AC/10 can hit pinpoint targets better from any range. IMO, go with the AC/10 if you're driving a slower mech and the LB-10 X-AC if you're driving a faster one.

In a nutshell, it depends on what you want to do.

"what you want to do" is always the same:

Kill or cripple enemy mechs.

The AC10 is simply better at that, and not by a small amount.

"suppression" is valuable, but must be secondary... And both weapons work fine for that. Investing that tonnage and size in a weapon that you _hope_ will suppress is just foolish - an ac2 would work better at a fraction of the size and weight (and that's still a fairly poor use of tonnage)

[InspectorG]

Wintersdark, on 31 December 2014 - 06:49 PM, said:

well, not easier to crit, but easier to destroy things. A 10pt hit will do 1 to 3 10 point crits, destroying 1-3 items (as only the ac20 has more than 10 health, and virtually everything else has 10). The LBX will get more crits, but each individual crit does only 2 damage (because of the damage bonus, otherwise it'd be 1). Those small crits are randomly distributed, so they'll tend to wear items down gradually. This increases the likelihood that you'll just destroy the Mech's component before the items.

Further, you get a crit roll even if only a small amount of damage is done to structure. So, an AC10 that hits a component with 9.9 Armour remaining can still do 3 10 point critical hits. For the LBX in that situation, you'll only have one pellet with a chance for crits, so 1 to 3 2 point damage crits doing minor damage randomly spread.


It's frustrating because so few people understand how crits work, then go about trumpeting the values of "crit seeking" leading to grossly mislead new players and reinforcing the ignorance.

I think they equate it with general thief classes that use poison in various RPGs. 'This special Dim Mak hit will cripple and kill him!'

Or they REALLY like the sound...which is bad***, i admit.

[TripleEhBeef]

I'd like the AC10 better if the velocity was bumped a tad. An LBX is ok if it's a backup weapon to your main pinpoint guns, but not as your primary autocannon.

I must say, I've had a soft spot in my heart for the LBX ever since I blew off both of a Jenner's legs with one shot. Got that level patterning when I fired. Telling light mechs to frak off is one thing it is objectively good for.

[kenyzed]

Some people (me, for example) are terrible at aiming and have horrible, shaky hands. In this case the LBX-10 is good because at least you don't waste your entire shot.

Plus it weighs one less ton, which can be handy. In a vacuum, the AC-10 is better. In the hands of the incompetent, I go LBX every time.

[InspectorG]

Wintersdark, on 31 December 2014 - 06:49 PM, said:

It's frustrating because so few people understand how crits work, then go about trumpeting the values of "crit seeking" leading to grossly mislead new players and reinforcing the ignorance.

Idea:

If the LBX worked more like BT where EACH PELLET that hit a open component Automatically DESTROYED equipment...

THAT would be worth it.

Late match it would be insane. Early match...just a spitball launcher.

[Wintersdark]

TripleEhBeef, on 01 January 2015 - 12:04 PM, said:

I'd like the AC10 better if the velocity was bumped a tad. An LBX is ok if it's a backup weapon to your main pinpoint guns, but not as your primary autocannon.

It's still really not, though. I mean, it's a 10 point damage gun, but it's simply inferior to an AC10. It's a usable weapon, just like some mechs have usable stock loadouts, but that doesn't make them good.

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I must say, I've had a soft spot in my heart for the LBX ever since I blew off both of a Jenner's legs with one shot. Got that level patterning when I fired. Telling light mechs to frak off is one thing it is objectively good for.

People say this a lot, but it's actually really inaccurate.

It's POSSIBLE to double leg something, if both legs are down to <5 structure points, but that's a pretty rare scenario AND it relies on landing just enough pellets on each leg. That's an extremely unlikely circumstance.

As to legging lights overall, an AC10 is still better. The LBX is extremely unlikely to land many pellets on a lights legs, and is basically equivilant to "just sweep the laser across the lights legs" as opposed to holding the laser on one leg. The AC10 does a flat 10 damage to the leg it hits; up to 14.5 damage with a triple crit. The LBX? Even with minor bonus damage from crits, it's impossible to land all 10 pellets on a single leg.

I suppose you could argue that "if you're really bad and can't hit a lights legs, the LBX may at least land a couple pellets" ... but at that point, you'd be WAY better off with other weapons than a massively heavy and large autocannon. Get machine guns, lasers, weapons you can't really miss with.

For clarity, though:

I'm not saying never take LBX autocannons. Take them if you want.

But don't try to convince yourself or others that they're better than they are.

I'm all for taking sub-par weapons when they're awesome, and the LBX autocannon IS awesome. BOOM! Shotgun! BAM! It's great. It's just nowhere near as good as a regular AC10.

[Nightshade24]

LBX is different in AC in a few ways...

X (while not in LBX) = number of the rating of weapon, rather it be 2, 5, 10, or 20.

the AC fires 1 solid projectile doing X damage OR fires multiple projectiles in a stream that add up to X damage.
the AC can use special ammunition rounds. like Flachette, Flak, normal, caseless, Armour Piercing, tracer, etc.
(Note: in MW: O we only got normal ammo type, ammo types are 'confirmed' but no where near top priority)

The LBX however is lighter and smaller most often to the AC equivalent but it is considered LosTech and thus often costs more to buy ammo, buy the weapon, or mechs that mount them to buy at stock price.
The LBX only has 2 ammunition types. Cluster or Standard HEAP (High Explosive Armour Piercing) rounds.
The clusters sum up to 1 damage per pallet making X damage all together.

In Mechwarrior Online only the inner sphere LBX 10 can't use the other ammo type.
The Clans can however it's under the placeholder "AC" instead of LBX. (this is why we got AC's in general... it's not in any stock mech, same stats as LBX, and is obsolete to the UAC's of clans)

The clans can switch ammo type in mid game (not yet in game. but is planed) while IS do not have any information on special ammunition yet.



Now we know the difference. Let's compare them in game play of MW: O....

LBX is better for close quarter combat and does critical damage to a cored area of the mech. It's a good crit seeker and is a lighter alternative to the AC.
The AC is good at range combat and does precision damage however it doesn't have as good of a min range (LBX min range doesn't do much damage but can get you a kill assist from over a km away with a large LBX)

LBX also makes less heat and no ghost heat is on it.

Clan LBX can both do burst precision and scatter. however in the future they can switch ammo type in mid game. This means a direwolf could be using 4 "AC 10's" at you for 1 second but when you are cored each one turn into an LBX 10.

[Wintersdark]

Nightshade24, on 01 January 2015 - 09:33 PM, said:

In Mechwarrior Online only the inner sphere LBX 10 can't use the other ammo type.
The Clans can however it's under the placeholder &quot;AC&quot; instead of LBX. (this is why we got AC's in general... it's not in any stock mech, same stats as LBX, and is obsolete to the UAC's of clans)

Small detail. The CAC is not actually obsolete; there are reasons to use them instead of the CUAC's. Generally speaking, you want to use the slightly smaller CUAC's.

However, there ARE differences in stats. This is because the CAC's use CLBX-AC stats, not CUAC stats.

So, the AC's vs UAC's:

AC2: 900m vs. 810m, the rest of the stats are the same. Note that this means while you lose doubletap (not a disadvantage, doubletapping a UAC2 is a great way to trigger ghost heat) you gain a substantial max range increase (1800 vs. 1620) and as such higher damage from 810-1800m. Edge:AC
AC5: Cooldown 1.8 vs 1.66, range 720 vs. 630. So, longer range, but lower DPS and HPS. Lower heat IMHO isn't worthwhile here, because the UAC5 is already quite cool. Edge: UAC
AC10: Heat 2 vs. 3, Cooldown 2.9 vs 2.5. While the AC is only 3.45 DPS vs. 4, this nets you 5.0DPH vs. 3.33 DPH: It's FAR cooler. And while doubletapping will push up DPS, it doesn't affect DPH. Edge: AC
AC20: Heat 6 vs. 7, Cooldown 4.9 vs 4.0. Like above, the AC20 has a lower 4.26DPS vs 5.0DPS, and a heat advantage of 3.3DPH vs 2.86DPH. It's a much smaller advantage than the AC10 vs. UAC10, however, for a comparable DPS difference. Edge: UAC

So, they're not at all the same. Generally speaking, the UAC's doubletap ability makes it clearly superior (as you don't risk jamming unless you're deliberately doubletapping, so they are equally reliable when you want reliability). Also, UAC's even single fired are equal or higher DPS.

However, regular AC's are at the high end cooler, and at the low end longer ranged. The key elements are the AC2 and AC10 - the AC2 for it's range, and the AC10 for being only 2/3rds the heat of the UAC10.

Anyways, the above applies strictly to Clan autocannons, which are very different from IS autocannons. The Clan (U)AC's, being burst fire, have less of a huge lead over Clan LB-X AC's than IS PPFLD AC's have over IS LB-X AC's.

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The clans can switch ammo type in mid game (not yet in game. but is planed) while IS do not have any information on special ammunition yet.

Now we know the difference. Let's compare them in game play of MW: O....

LBX is better for close quarter combat and does critical damage to a cored area of the mech. It's a good crit seeker and is a lighter alternative to the AC.

Gah! See: My posts above. The LBX is not better for close quarters combat. It's one ton lighter, and it's only marginally superior to the AC10 at extremely close range and after armor is gone. That's key; as the AC10 is so much better before then that you'll always kill faster and destroy internal items faster with an AC10. Further, "crit seeker" is meaningless; if you want to claim an advantage there say exactly what you want to acheive: more crit damage is not the same thing as more items being destroyed.

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The AC is good at range combat and does precision damage however it doesn't have as good of a min range (LBX min range doesn't do much damage but can get you a kill assist from over a km away with a large LBX)

The LBX has a higher optimal range than the AC10, but that's of very little use. The max range on the AC10 is still 900m. While the LBX has a longer optimal range which in theory is good, it's not actually useful because outside of 100m, you're always missing with a bunch of pellets due to spread vs. mech geometry. Being able to "tag" a mech for an assist at extreme range isn't worth discussing for a range of reasons.

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LBX also makes less heat and no ghost heat is on it.

Less heat is good. No ghost heat is irrelevant, as no IS mechs can load AC10's to the point of generating ghost heat. Less heat, while always a good thing, is nowhere near covering for the LBX's other weaknesses.


In short, IS LBX's are fun weapons, but they are never the optimal weapon to take on a mech.

Edited by Wintersdark, 01 January 2015 - 10:50 PM.

[Vlad Striker]

LB10-x much better AC10 to hunt down fast light mechs. Pellets travels faster and cover wider zone.
Standart tactics - strip armor with missles or lasers and finish off with LBX.

[Flapdrol]

LB10 is 1 slot smaller so you can fit 2 in a sidetorso, 1 ton lighter, and 2 heat instead of 3. But you have to be close for it to be effective.

[Tim East]

Wintersdark, on 01 January 2015 - 06:40 PM, said:

People say this a lot, but it's actually really inaccurate.

It's POSSIBLE to double leg something, if both legs are down to <5 structure points, but that's a pretty rare scenario AND it relies on landing just enough pellets on each leg. That's an extremely unlikely circumstance.

*Ahem* Ammo explosion. Y'know, since we're talking about unlikely things.