100 replies to this topic

[Impossible Wasabi]

kamiko kross, on 10 February 2015 - 04:49 AM, said:

Ok devil's advocate (look it up before smack talking me please) time again! This next question(s) are posed off of other comments I've seen in related threads:
What I've seen is that it's the level of co-ordination that makes premades unfair, even with pug voip. Also it has been said that their mechs set ups and level of practice (skill basically) makes it unfair.

So the first question is:
Should people in maxed out mechs and higher elos be separated out of the solo pug queue? If these people are unfair in premades, then they should also be unfair in solo queue as they have better mechs and better skills?

So the second question is:
If one solo team doesn't use built in voip but the other team does, is that fair? Should the voip using team NOT be matched up with the muted team?

When trying to answer please prefix your replies with A1 and A2 so I know where your points you'd like to make start, thank you!

A1: You are misunderstanding the issue with good, meta builds in premades compared to solo players. The problem is not that people use meta builds in groups, the problem is rather that if you are dropping in a group you can guarantee that everyone is using compatible mechs and builds that will work well.

Skill or good builds are not the problem, the problem is that if the Space Pope grabs 9 other players, he can ensure that his team is operating nearly at peak efficiency in regards to skill, tactics and positioning. Something which is rather hard to do if you are solo dropping.

Does it suck in a solo drop if someone grabs a less than ideal Assault mech for instance? Sure, but usually neither team will have ideal compositions.

A2: Bad example, if one team decides to split up and not work together is it unfair? If the Space Pope decides to play with his eyes closed is that unfair to his team? It's a silly example that doesn't pertain to this discussion.

You can't force people to work together or use comms, but you can encourage it. However, again, VOIP vs. no VOIP still doesn't reflect the totality of the problem in matching solo players vs. groups. So again, this theoretical question is not relevant, because it's not VOIP that makes premades do well, it's the fact that you are self-selecting who you play with.

I.e. if the Space Pope solo drops he can't pick who he is playing with, what mechs they use or plan ahead of time. If he is dropping a group however, he can make sure that everyone is on the same page, probably he will know how good is group members are, how they play and in some cases he might have long periods of experience playing with said players.

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Essentially, you are focusing too much on the argument that it is "unfair" to match solo players against groups. The problem is not that the game is not perfectly fair, that is never the case, the problem is rather that unless you get supremely lucky in a solo group and end up with a bunch of good players using good builds, you will be facing a disproportionately unfair battle.

Again, does that happen in solo queue? Of course, sometimes one team gets luckier and gets some great players but in general you have a roughly comparable chance of a good or bad team.

However, again, if one team is a group, the odds of said team being at least average is much greater, hence why our average solo player found it frustrating to play against groups.

Just compare what happens when small groups play big groups, it takes a really bad 10 man (or some very good small groups) to lose against 3-4 small units, this effect would only be exasperated if you compared solo players to groups.

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Now personally, the Space Pope doesn't care who he plays, he usually solo pugs or plays with one or two other people, so fighting 8-10 mans is the state of his average drop and he would rather see weight/class based drops and simply play whomever.

It's not that you can't win (at present the Space Pope has something like 65-70% wins across all of his mechs) but it requires skill and a desire to challenge yourself constantly, because you will have to do so much better than the 8-10 people all sitting on comms.

However, he can definitely see how the average player would be frustrated to constantly have to fight an uphill battle.

Edited by The True Space Pope, 10 February 2015 - 10:19 AM.

[Slimspadey101]

With the implementation of voip Solo queue and Group queue will no longer be necessary imo. In my experience with competitive games Ranked and Unranked queues are a better way to segment the player base and create a more balanced player experience, which is what MWO is lacking I believe. Ranked queue will allow players to earn badges next to their name signifying their skill level. This badge should be shown in all other game modes as well, so other players will know what to expect when pitted against them in CW or Unranked. Alternatively, since MWO already has badges and titles for other things the color of the players name could show rank.

Edit: After further thought, voip still isn't enough to facilitate a reasonable ranked play experience. Addition UI elements would have to be introduced as well. Such as a pregame lobby interface that allows players to coordinate mech selection with their team.

Edited by Slimspadey101, 10 February 2015 - 12:43 PM.

[Jon Gotham]

The True Space Pope, on 10 February 2015 - 10:06 AM, said:

A2: Bad example, if one team decides to split up and not work together is it unfair? If the Space Pope decides to play with his eyes closed is that unfair to his team? It's a silly example that doesn't pertain to this discussion.

Whilst Kamiko is pleased with The Space Pope's indulgence and lengthy answer, he is most displeased with being called silly. The question was should those two teams be matched together? It contained no reference to premades or pugs So Kamiko expected and answer to that particular situation:should those two teams face each other?
Kamiko once again thanks The Space Pope for his indulgence and time away from affairs of state

[tucsonspeed6]

Groups will always have an advantage of better preparation. No change will ever make groups and solos even. They can only ever get closer to even. Just be glad that VoIP will give pugs enough of a sporting chance that you'll see another temporary spike in CW populations until 12 mans figure out a new way to sap all of the fun from the experience and kill the golden goose again.

[Torgun]

kamiko kross, on 10 February 2015 - 09:46 AM, said:

How did your response answer my question? I think most people that know my name know what my "agenda" is by now. I don't hide.
So please, if you wish to participate in this thread-stay on topic. Question #1 and question #2 please.

It's pointless answering those questions because you're just trying to cloud the issue with semantics. The core of the issue with premades vs solos is the premade's ability to setup their configs to help each other in their game style and being able to beforehand agree on what they're going to do in the match. Not to mention having played quite a bit together so you can cooperate better. You don't get all that down in 1 minute with solos just because you have VOIP. So just get out of here with your pointless attempts at giving premades the chance to farm solo players again. If you want to do that then go play CW.

Edited by Torgun, 10 February 2015 - 11:13 AM.

[Impossible Wasabi]

kamiko kross, on 10 February 2015 - 10:23 AM, said:

Whilst Kamiko is pleased with The Space Pope's indulgence and lengthy answer, he is most displeased with being called silly. The question was should those two teams be matched together? It contained no reference to premades or pugs So Kamiko expected and answer to that particular situation:should those two teams face each other?
Kamiko once again thanks The Space Pope for his indulgence and time away from affairs of state

Let's try it again then...

A2: Sure, there is no reason for these teams not play against one another. If one team chooses not to use tools provided by the game, then they can only blame themselves.

Similarly, if one team elects not to use tactics, that is not the fault of the game or the other team.

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However, the Space Pope still doesn't see what the point of said examples are beyond giving you a false equivalency.

He expects you will try to argue that since it is ok to have unfair matches (one team may have better builds or better players and one team may choose to use VOIP), then it must thus be alright to let solo players play against group players (because they choose not to group together).

Again, however, the problem is not in the fact that matches can be unfair, the problem as others have said is that merely giving 12 random players comms for a match, doesn't mean they will be of a comparable level to that of a large premade group.

Which is why the Space Pope expressed his regard that your examples were fruitless, because they do not hold value regarding this discussion, whether to merge queues or not.

Edited by The True Space Pope, 10 February 2015 - 11:45 AM.

[Apnu]

kamiko kross, on 05 February 2015 - 04:53 AM, said:

"One future item that I feel is worth mentioning is new Looking For Group functionality that we hope to release in March. This will allow players to browse a list of players that are LFG, add themselves to the list. As well groups will be able to fill up their groups using this window and also set themselves to open group status to allow others to join in."

Seems suspiciously like a lobby. That's a good thing.

[CygnusX7]

Realistically, one thing at a time.
It may very well be VOIP will blur the distinction between PUG and Group matches but more than likely it will be a percentage.

[Almond Brown]

kamiko kross, on 10 February 2015 - 10:23 AM, said:

Whilst Kamiko is pleased with The Space Pope's indulgence and lengthy answer, he is most displeased with being called silly. The question was should those two teams be matched together? It contained no reference to premades or pugs So Kamiko expected and answer to that particular situation:should those two teams face each other?
Kamiko once again thanks The Space Pope for his indulgence and time away from affairs of state

I would have to agree with Pope on that. Your question is not one the game can resolve as it involves variables it cannot control. If both Teams start with Voip on, then when they both hit the ground, one Team turns theirs OFF, then how is the game supposed to keep them separated? I am not usre why that would even be considered as "unfair" anyways?

Having it "guess" which teams might turn off their comms on Dropping and then not matching them against any other team that has Comms ON, is a "silly" notion for sure.

Edited by Almond Brown, 10 February 2015 - 12:20 PM.

[Jon Gotham]

The True Space Pope, on 10 February 2015 - 11:37 AM, said:

Let's try it again then...

A2: Sure, there is no reason for these teams not play against one another. If one team chooses not to use tools provided by the game, then they can only blame themselves.

Similarly, if one team elects not to use tactics, that is not the fault of the game or the other team.

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However, the Space Pope still doesn't see what the point of said examples are beyond giving you a false equivalency.

He expects you will try to argue that since it is ok to have unfair matches (one team may have better builds or better players and one team may choose to use VOIP), then it must thus be alright to let solo players play against group players (because they choose not to group together).

Again, however, the problem is not in the fact that matches can be unfair, the problem as others have said is that merely giving 12 random players comms for a match, doesn't mean they will be of a comparable level to that of a large premade group.

Which is why the Space Pope expressed his regard that your examples were fruitless, because they do not hold value regarding this discussion, whether to merge queues or not.

Kamiko thanks the Space Pope for his clarification, and wishes him success in executing his papal duties:)
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Almond I was assuming that the first team had ALREADY turned it off.
I can't give my opinion as it would make me playing devil's advocate rather pointless:)

Edited by kamiko kross, 10 February 2015 - 08:17 PM.

[Jon Gotham]

Torgun, on 10 February 2015 - 11:12 AM, said:

It's pointless answering those questions because you're just trying to cloud the issue with semantics. The core of the issue with premades vs solos is the premade's ability to setup their configs to help each other in their game style and being able to beforehand agree on what they're going to do in the match. Not to mention having played quite a bit together so you can cooperate better. You don't get all that down in 1 minute with solos just because you have VOIP. So just get out of here with your pointless attempts at giving premades the chance to farm solo players again. If you want to do that then go play CW.

And again you respond with an insult, please participate in a positive manner like others have managed to. No one is trying to farm anyone-you may want to look up the term "devil's advocate" oh hell one second I'll do it for you:
"In common parlance, a devil's advocate is someone who, given a certain argument, takes a position they do not necessarily agree with (or simply an alternative position from the accepted norm),for the sake of debate or to explore the thought further. In taking this position, the individual taking on the devil's advocate role seeks to engage others in an argumentative discussion process. The purpose of such a process is typically to test the quality of the original argument and identify weaknesses in its structure, and to use such information to either improve or abandon the original, opposing position. It can also refer to someone who takes a stance that is seen as unpopular or unconventional, but is actually another way of arguing a much more conventional stance. The background of this word comes from an official position within the Catholic Church, in which a canon lawyer called the Devil's Advocate, also known as the Promoter of Faith, "argued against the canonization or sainthood of a candidate in order to uncover any character flaws or misrepresentation evidence favoring canonization."
Now, I have asked the militant soloists several times now to take the bad attitude out of this thead-I'm asking you to take your victim complex out too.

Edited by kamiko kross, 10 February 2015 - 08:24 PM.

[Navy Sixes]

No, I don't think so. But if VOIP works as intended, solo players will feel less outmatched by groups in CW, and will come back to play against you there.

That's what we want, right? A successful CW environment? Because the way the OP makes it sound, it's like they know they can't have CW without solos, and since the solos are losing patience with this brand of beta fast, they've pretty much thrown in that towel and are looking for new PUG pastures to farm.

[HellAvenger]

yes, great way to piss off majority of the population. no thanks. this game lacks players already

[Torgun]

kamiko kross, on 10 February 2015 - 08:21 PM, said:

And again you respond with an insult, please participate in a positive manner like others have managed to. No one is trying to farm anyone-you may want to look up the term "devil's advocate" oh hell one second I'll do it for you:
"In common parlance, a devil's advocate is someone who, given a certain argument, takes a position they do not necessarily agree with (or simply an alternative position from the accepted norm),for the sake of debate or to explore the thought further. In taking this position, the individual taking on the devil's advocate role seeks to engage others in an argumentative discussion process. The purpose of such a process is typically to test the quality of the original argument and identify weaknesses in its structure, and to use such information to either improve or abandon the original, opposing position. It can also refer to someone who takes a stance that is seen as unpopular or unconventional, but is actually another way of arguing a much more conventional stance. The background of this word comes from an official position within the Catholic Church, in which a canon lawyer called the Devil's Advocate, also known as the Promoter of Faith, "argued against the canonization or sainthood of a candidate in order to uncover any character flaws or misrepresentation evidence favoring canonization."
Now, I have asked the militant soloists several times now to take the bad attitude out of this thead-I'm asking you to take your victim complex out too.

If you actually read my post you'd see exactly why I think we should not have one queue for everyone. And copy/pasting a definition of devil's advocate hardly masks that you of course want to have one queue for everyone, or else you would never have brought it up. So you're not really a devil's advocate, you're just pretending to be when in reality you're your own advocate.

[Jon Gotham]

You really do have a massive chip on your shoulder, and response WAY out of proportion to what you experience. I'm going to ask you AGAIN to stop derailing the thread.
THREE posts above this one not addressing the questions I asked, after repeatedly asking people to stay on topic.
This thread is not about farming solos. Discussion of a topic. Why can't you do that nicely?

Edited by kamiko kross, 11 February 2015 - 04:45 AM.

[Torgun]

kamiko kross, on 11 February 2015 - 04:42 AM, said:

You really do have a massive chip on your shoulder, and response WAY out of proportion to what you experience. I'm going to ask you AGAIN to stop derailing the thread.
THREE posts above this one not addressing the questions I asked, after repeatedly asking people to stay on topic.
This thread is not about farming solos. Discussion of a topic. Why can't you do that nicely?

It's probably going to be my last reply on this thread, so you can keep it to pretend you don't personally want a unified queue with exactly the same problems that was the reason we split the queues in the first place. You're asking questions that try to avoid the main issue, which is all the advantages of a premade have over solos I clearly pointed out in my first reply to you. No amount of in-game VOIP is going to change to distinct advantage.

[Jon Gotham]

The irony is...I play solo around 90% of the time.

[Triordinant]

When they rolled CW out, PGI plainly stated that it was a "hardcore" mode without Elo matchmaking that favored premade teams and that it would be hard on PUGs. In the weeks since CW rolled out, a lot of PUGs have tried it and decided it wasn't fun while a handful of PUGs enjoyed it and still do. Based on how CW was designed and what PGI said it was, this was to be expected.

Many have asked why PGI would design a game mode and separate queue for such a small slice of the MWO playerbase. I'm guessing that they were hoping that there would be a huge influx of players joining established Units and forming new ones. The problem with that assumption is the many reasons why most MWO players won't or can't join Units didn't miraculously disappear with the appearance of CW, so while there was an initial surge in Unit recruitment when CW showed up, the vast majority of MWO players are still unaffiliated and will continue to be so.

Since this fact was established, several ideas on how to get PUGs to play CW have come up and some are being implemented. One of these is in-game VOIP. While it would certainly help, it can't make up for the fact that the competitive Units have trained together for months so they know each others moves; or that they've memorized the main features of all the maps and have code names for them so they don't need to use Battle Grid coordinates; or that their 'mechs are not only fully mastered and moduled but their 'mechs and loadouts are preselected to work together as a coordinated team and compliment each others' strengths while making up for the weaknesses. On the PUG side, VOIP doesn't help at all if some of your teammates don't speak the same language or have VOIP muted.

Another suggestion has been a solo-only queue for CW. Unfortunately, this won't help much either. The reason the solo-only queue that currently exists works is because the big competitive premade groups can't reliably sync-drop into it. If there was a CW solo-only queue, the big competitive premades CAN reliably sync-drop into it because each team in a match is all of the same Faction so there's no chance their Unit's players will end up on opposing sides. The Natural Law of online gaming states that if something can be exploited, it will be. Not all premade teams aim for easy wins against random PUGs, but many do.

As each of these (and possibly other) bandaids are rolled out, I'm sure there will be a surge of PUGs who'll want to try the "new, improved" CW out despite the writing on the wall. Just as before, most will be disappointed but a few will stay.

I generally like to see a glass as half full rather than half empty, and there are some good things about CW. For one, it pulled a lot of top tier competitive premade teams out of the public group queue. Before CW, players would try to introduce their friends, partners, siblings or offspring to MWO by "sheparding" them in the group queue only to get curbstomped over and over again by well-trained competitive teams using maxed out coordinated 'mechs. When the comp Units are playing CW, this doesn't happen as much. Hint: if you're a small casual group, drop into the public group queue in the hours just before the CW ceasefires.

As for me, I just enjoy the current solo-only queue for what it is: the perfect "filler" game for when you have 30 to 90 minutes to spare because, unlike other online games, a match is guaranteed to never last more than 15 minutes and most of the time they last only half that. My piloting and gunnery skills have greatly improved and when I feel up to it, I try to herd my PUG teammates to victory -and it works slightly more than half of the time.

[Jon Gotham]

I was really pleased with that reply till I realised you copy-pasted it......well thanks anyway:)
What do you think about the one pug team with voip, one pug team without voip question? I would have thought as you are primarily a pug player it'd be something you'd want to get right?
Should we split the solo queue into voip+ no voip?

[Triordinant]

kamiko kross, on 11 February 2015 - 08:14 AM, said:

I was really pleased with that reply till I realised you copy-pasted it......well thanks anyway:)
What do you think about the one pug team with voip, one pug team without voip question? I would have thought as you are primarily a pug player it'd be something you'd want to get right?
Should we split the solo queue into voip+ no voip?

VOIP will not make as big a difference as some people think, so the answer is No. As I pointed out in paragraph 3, it's the organization, training and optimized 'mechs selected as a team that make the difference. Since there aren't any groups in the solo-only queue, all that is out of the equation.