65 replies to this topic

[Deathlike]

While the King Crab could arguably be called the last IS mech that's not in a pack, the Vindicator was actually that mech. The King Crab was tied to the purchase of a high level pack... while the often cited Firestarter was released during the Phoenix Pack schedule. Let's not get too caught up in the details here... it might not be the last, but it's more or less a fact for 2014.

The Vindicator upon release did not fare well. It was listed as one of the worst mechs comparatively speaking in the last chassis challenge, due in part to its limitations and it not being popular. To be succinct... it wasn't very good. It happened to be the last medium mech in my grinding list that I didn't want to touch until quirks. While the quirks have helped a bit, it brings to light issues in mech design.... whether it be scaling or just the quirk system. While I doubt this article will change the popularity of said mech, we do need to question the foundations for decisions made here.

Since this is the first IS mech mentioned in the "newer format", this will hopefully make it easier to write about the future Resistance mech pack. Again, 3 is the magic number.. so 3 sections.

1) Variants - There's a Missile Hardpoint?!?!
2) Field Test - It's better to be heard and not seen...
3) Future - There's a third missile hardpoint!?!?!?!?


1) Variants - Energy is your friend, PPC is the word

While it may be unfair to compare mechs, the Blackjack was a fairly good standard for a 45-ton mech, outside of engine cap rule as the importance of having true double heatsinks cannot be understated. With that said, the missile hardpoint on this mech is virtually irrelevant in the current state of MWO unless you are relying on NARC. Adding extra damage through the solo missile hardpoint is generally less than productive...

I'll list the variants from worst to best, with a small note about the hero mech (which, I have not used personally).


I) VND-1X - "Didn't think this through"

While I am planning to write a followup article about hardpoint inflation, this variant needed this by design.. but for the energy hardpoints. When a mech doesn't get access to fielding 2 large weapons (even if it is just 2 Large Lasers), a mech's ability to be effective suffers greatly, and it shows. What is worse has more to do with the quirks.

It's hard to pinpoint what ballistic would be ideal for the mech, but it ultimately comes down to trying not to brawl with it. One of the things this mech has suffered from DESPITE quirks is the lack of durability it has... even if you frontload the armor. It's simply just soft. I would argue that the Blackjack is actually more durable... but that shouldn't be the case. The quirks have increased the arm durability, but those things have the majority of the firepower.. which makes this all the more problematic.

The only active counter-balancing thing is the availability of jump jets as the mech is wholly dependent on them.


II) VND-1R - It's not quite a BJ-3, but it doesn't have to be...

Without the quirks, this variant would honestly be an inferior version of the BJ-3. While arm articulation is a "choice", you have a less than usable missile hardpoint.

What is most notable is the firing locations on the arm. The left arm is "higher" than the left, despite having the arm actuator... which makes one occasionally yearn for a Clan mech at times (being able to control it, even if you lose them due to large ballistics+PPCs).

The quirks however brings one back to remembering the old PPC meta. 8 heat and ~1300 m/s velocity is close as it gets here. Not even the BJ-3 got such quirks. Unfortunately, it isn't favorable for much else since the BJ-3 would do a better job otherwise... so you're almost kinda forced to maximize certain building routes in order to "compensate" vs comparable mechs. It's a said state of the quirk design.


III) VND-1AA - I'd kill for JJs on the BJ-1X....

While limited in hardpoints, the greatest advantage of this variant is the speed. Failing to use it only hurts the durability of the mech.

The quirks are more or less similar to the 1R, so it may not be too bad to run PPCs on this. The additional speed would allow for other options like a Large Pulse Laser or something along those lines.

The left arm tends to be better use for a shield for the sake of convergence. Ideally maximizing that with the Right Arm is usually the way to go.


SP) VND-SIB

While having decent hardpoints and usable missile hardpoints, the majority of the weapons are focused on the left side, thus making it more problematic than usual. it is somewhat unfair that the hero gets the 250 engine cap while the regular non-speedy variants suffer. This needs to be rectified a bit IMO.


Let's goto the next thing that really matters... how it plays out on the battlefield.


2) Field Report - "I want to hug you and squish you and..."

I've already hinted some of the problems with regards to mech building and it being vulnerable.

While you could probably improve the durability of the mech by using a Standard engine, the firepower suffers as a consequence. The mech's hitboxes doesn't really do the mech justice. You can't really use the arms to shield as the bulk of the mech's firepower.

The side torsos are squishy... while I think that could be correctable, I'm not sure if one would want a squishy CT or squishy side torsos... inevitably you'd have to do stuff that an Ice Ferret would have to do, except not having the speed to do it with unless you are using the 1AA. Essentially, the mech is more productive as a supporting direct fire mech...

The niche that most medium mechs are in tend to be unforgiving... and when you consider the Shadowhawk as "the standard"... let alone the Blackjack... then the Vindicator require quite a bit more effort and skill to make the most of... and even then PPC quirks only "bail" it out of a Tier 5 state to Tier 4.. and it would be wicked generous to consider it Tier 3.

The 1X bothers me the most considering how much energy hardpoints are pretty damn important no matter what mech you are... and would be a source of frustration.

Is there a future to the mech?


3) The Future - Wishing For More Missiles...

Here's the good news... there is some hint that Vindicators have a 3rd missile hardpoint for the left torso on the Vindicator. This may imply there was some consideration to do the hardpoint inflation method that is needed to make it more "productive". The projected missile tube configuration is the following (20, 10x2).

Unfortunately, the bad news is that Mcgral tells me it doesn't work (unable to import that for whatever the reason) so it isn't in the cards. While I'd like to expand on hardpoint inflation (to be written in a future article soon™ - depending on what people think is more interesting), this isn't the scope of the post... but it should have been a greater consideration especially when the Blackjack is the standard for the 45 tonners. The mech isn't a missile boat, but for the purposes of MWO, balance, and usability... doubling the missile hardpoint would genuinely helped in increasing its weapon options. This could change in the future.

I'm unsure whether the next set of IS quirks will help address or change how this mech is used... and perhaps I'll revisit this in 2 weeks. The real problem with the mech is not whether it has gotten the quirks it needs... it needs a bit of help on the hardpoint inflation front.


Anyways... it's been hard to get the time to write stuff and the time required to write them is consuming (1 to 2 hours of ranting with cohesive arguments is difficult sometimes). There is some stuff in the pipeline left... you can choose what comes next...

1) Adder - I've gotten it elited out, and I have already come to some conclusion of it (quick note: it's bad).

2) Cicada-3C - The quest here is to understand when hardpoint inflation are applied to IS mechs and where/when it is appropriate or inappropriate. There is likely to be a followup post/thread about the Enforcer and all the 50 tonners that are involved as this particular post will discuss its application of the 55 tonner level (4 55 tonners is a lot of analysis... so will 4 50 tonners will be once the Enforcer is available). While I could probably analyze the 35 tonner situation (really, it's a firestarters world), but there's a lot more to look at considering the mechs in question and how they differ in their own ways.

For TL;DR:

So... I enjoyed the Vindicators and their PPC quirks... but honestly it isn't ever hard to find out why a mech is considered bad and even so why the worst variant is just bad. While I don't strictly like to call mechs DOA (outside of the Spider-5V for obvious reasons)... the marriage of the paper and actual playing of a mech confirms what most people already know... the Vindicator may be tons of fun when you make the most of its quirks, but it reminds us that balance is very fickle and paying attention to details makes all the difference in the world. The Vindicator can be fixed, but needs more TLC to NOT be the worst Medium Mech currently in the game.. lucky Nova.

You can vote between 1 or 2... and I'll see to writing what comes to mind depending on how much voting occurs in response. Thanks for reading.

[Bishop Steiner]

Funny thing? Most effective VND I run is the 1AA...and I ignore the Quirks. 110 kph, max JJs, 4 Mlasers and an ALRM15. Best fast harasser I have. Many many 5-6 kill games. Damage runs between 400-800 on good matches.

My second fave is the SIB, which I use as a LPL, 2 MPL, 2 SRM4 brawler. 250 engine, max JJs.

And lastly, the "Sniper". 1R. 2 PPC, 3 Mlasers. A little slow, but a good sniper, poptart chassis.

Totally agree with eht 1X...want to love it, can't.


And yes, I think ALL of them need an extra Missile Hardpoint added. But I love the mobility, and they are decently tanky. So while I agree with a lot of your findings, I still find one can play around with builds outside the quirks, and match it to playstyle.... and be quite decent.

[Nothing Whatsoever]

I've been running these mechs too. I've done fine with these two builds: VND-1AA and VND-1R

I tried different builds some with XL engines, PPCs and even missiles, and the main thing I also experienced was the ease with losing an arm or torso and the need to deal with mechs that would close, where I ended up being better off using the laser builds I'm sharing. And this experience is playing solo and even trying them in CW.

[Mcgral18]

Deathlike, on 06 February 2015 - 07:13 PM, said:

Unfortunately, the bad news is that Mcgral tells me it doesn't work (unable to import that for whatever the reason) so it isn't in the cards.

I think that's just an issue on my end. Others said they got it open properly, just not me.

I say go for the Badder. I don't enjoy that one.

[CocoaJin]

Sometimes you just gotta let things suck. Some mechs are just very niche, but we lose sight of and take it for granted as we attempt to have/seek very effective general purpose mechs...a desirable characteristic when dropping randomly into maps with diverse environments to exploit and while on unpredictable teams using all sort of tactical strategies and approaches with a plethora of mech builds.

If we aren't careful, we will just end up with a lot of carbon copy mechs with different looking chassises.

[Sorbic]

I've only recently started with the Vindi's and only have the AA skilled into elites. So far it can be fun but the damn thing feels like a paper mech with the CT soaking up damage. This pretty much jives with my fights against them. Free kill CT gone.

Having an agile, dual PPC mech would be a lot more fun if PPC hits actually registered reliably...

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Mcgral18, on 06 February 2015 - 10:33 PM, said:

I think that's just an issue on my end. Others said they got it open properly, just not me.

I say go for the Badder. I don't enjoy that one.

It does import but there is one problem with the 3rd set of hardpoints and that is the clip a decent amount with the rest of the mech.

Honestly, I'm just about finished mastering 3 mediums, the Kintaro, Vindicator, and Trebuchet.

The Trebuchet suffered about as much as the Vindicator did on the quirk end. The Trebuchet is still not that great of a fire support mech and is ironically surpassed by the HBK-4J thanks to its tier and superior launcher choice for the tonnage.

The VND-1X is just disappointing, a single AC5 doesn't pack enough punch and an AC10 is near impossible to squeeze in without dropping the speed with decent enough backup. What I'd really like to see is the ability to mount more backup lasers for a Gauss loadout.

The VND-1R has the ability to double up on the left arm which as you pointed out is higher up which is nice considering its manwalker status. Still the speed just leaves you wanting more and just like the non-Hero Vindicators has a worthless missile quirk. If it had an extra missile hardpoint and a boost up to a 250 engine, I'd like this one a bit more. That and better quirks, used to run 5 ML under the old quirks and without some sort of heat reduction quirk, it was just way too hot.

To differentiate the VND-SIB from the VND-1R, it would be nice to see that third missile hardpoint be corrected and added so you could run it like a slightly smaller jumping CN9-A.

The VND-1AA is definitely the best of the bunch with its speed, but I wouldn't mind it getting an extra energy hardpoint in that left arm for the extra height.



One irritating thing for me is seeing the velocity quirks for PPCs on this thing. The TDR-9S is a beast not because of the extra velocity it gets (ERPPC +15% vs the Vindi's PPC +40%), but because of that heat. What the Vindicators need is a small boost in the heat generation quirks and a PPC oriented cooldown quirk.



I really wish this mech was a beast though, its looks have grown on me a lot and I find it one of the cooler mediums.

Edited by WM Quicksilver, 06 February 2015 - 11:42 PM.

[Deathlike]

Bishop Steiner, on 06 February 2015 - 07:39 PM, said:

Totally agree with eht 1X...want to love it, can't.


And yes, I think ALL of them need an extra Missile Hardpoint added. But I love the mobility, and they are decently tanky. So while I agree with a lot of your findings, I still find one can play around with builds outside the quirks, and match it to playstyle.... and be quite decent.

I don't think we have to be limited to the quirks, but in some ways the quirks help in a sense for an optimal durability situation that involves and XL engine.

With that said, I've felt like any build I could come up with the 1X ends up being a frankenmech... which is one of those sticking points of "bad hardpoint deals" that come mechs get. Something like the Griffin-3M has an oddity of hardpoint locations for the energy, but the bulk of the power comes from the missile torso... allowing it to skate from actual criticism (if not just being the best variant of the bunch in the first place).

Praetor Knight, on 06 February 2015 - 08:12 PM, said:

I've been running these mechs too. I've done fine with these two builds: VND-1AA and VND-1R

I tried different builds some with XL engines, PPCs and even missiles, and the main thing I also experienced was the ease with losing an arm or torso and the need to deal with mechs that would close, where I ended up being better off using the laser builds I'm sharing. And this experience is playing solo and even trying them in CW.

I can safely say that I barely see them in CW... and if I do see them, they use PPCs.

You literally have to be a ninja with them or you pay dearly.

CocoaJin, on 06 February 2015 - 11:04 PM, said:

Sometimes you just gotta let things suck. Some mechs are just very niche, but we lose sight of and take it for granted as we attempt to have/seek very effective general purpose mechs...a desirable characteristic when dropping randomly into maps with diverse environments to exploit and while on unpredictable teams using all sort of tactical strategies and approaches with a plethora of mech builds.

If we aren't careful, we will just end up with a lot of carbon copy mechs with different looking chassises.

This isn't actually acceptable for this mech. Unlike the Endo vs FF debate, it's not gamebreaking, but those kinds of decisions should be a conscious one and not a "no brainer" (as in, always go Endo first, since FF doesn't provide anything of substance otherwise).

It isn't too hard to make improvements of the mech... and I have a few more suggestions as well (to be listed later). The thing is... quirks made the Locust a more acceptable mech than the freaking Mist Lynx. While it's fun to use hyperbole for comparisons, I've gotten embarrassed more by good Locust pilots than I would a Mist Lynx pilot (if anything, the "look ma, no arms" joke is a great war cry commentary on the matter).


Some suggestions that I had forgotten to mention:


1) Buff the side torsos or the CT durability - adjust the quirk protection for the area that has the worse/larger hitboxes. In other words... large side torsos means more durability for those sections through quirks. Large CT means more durability for the CT. Simply do CT or LT/RT quirks for the large hitbox section.

It seems like this is the more practical solution to fix such problems... something that could be applied to Dragons or Awesomes. This isn't optimal, but that's the only real solution (since nothing else is on the table) to address said problems.


2) Increase torso twist speed, really.

Strangely enough, this is the ONLY Medium Mech w/o torso twist quirks. Even the Griffin has the least of a boost (10%) while being the most agile medium in the game. If anything, being able to put said bonus on the slower non-250 engine capable variants (essentially, all variants that aren't the 1AA or the SIB) would be really helpful. They are agile enough, but this is something that is necessary to bridge the gap between the slower variants from the faster ones.


That's all that came to mind after the fact about posting this thread.

The only weird change I would consider is if the 1X isn't going to get a change in hardpoint inflation for the energy arm (right arm) is to swap the PPC buff for an ERPPC buff. That would allow it to go with a ERPPC + ballistic of your choice (well, AC5/UAC5 or AC10) and be more effective... instead of being half as effective when someone is able to challenge your mech.

It doesn't have to be restricted like that... but it being a PPC quirk is actually rather counterproductive for that variant.

[Deathlike]

WM Quicksilver, on 06 February 2015 - 11:40 PM, said:

One irritating thing for me is seeing the velocity quirks for PPCs on this thing. The TDR-9S is a beast not because of the extra velocity it gets (ERPPC +15% vs the Vindi's PPC +40%), but because of that heat. What the Vindicators need is a small boost in the heat generation quirks and a PPC oriented cooldown quirk.

TBH, I wouldn't even think of the ERPPC with the ERPPC's base velocity. The heat makes it amenable for lots more spam (basically, spam like the old 8-heat PPC of the older meta, but also get a a velocity boost to make it count). The velocity actually helps make it connect (I've had some really nice occasional high kill games as a result) and make it far more useful than it normally would.

[MikeBend]

Missile hardpoint is ok, i enjoy my 1R with ALRM 15, full jumpjets and 4 MLAS, Standard engine. Still cant figure out what to do with 1AA, 2 PPC dont work well for me.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Deathlike, on 06 February 2015 - 11:47 PM, said:

TBH, I wouldn't even think of the ERPPC with the ERPPC's base velocity. The heat makes it amenable for lots more spam (basically, spam like the old 8-heat PPC of the older meta, but also get a a velocity boost to make it count). The velocity actually helps make it connect (I've had some really nice occasional high kill games as a result) and make it far more useful than it normally would.

It's nice, but I would happily trade some of the velocity buff for a slightly improved heat generation and cooldown buff at least on the Vindi especially since it is outclasses by most sniper mechs anyway, at least allow it to be a decent mid-range sort of mech. Though the Vindi with PPCs would be much better if PPCs didn't have that minimum range that lights that are way faster than you can easily abuse. Honestly that is probably my biggest problem with running PPCs on the mech and trying to be a harasser of sorts.

[STEF_]

Honestly the problem I have with the Vindy, is that, piloting, I feel it like a ShD, but it dies eaten alive in a minute, the opposite of a ShD.
It's only 5 tons heavier than a CDA, but... sadly.... maneuverability changes totally!

So, my to go "ligher" medium, is still the CDA. (Let's be honest: the CDA is not a medium mech, it's a light! )

[CocoaJin]

Sarna would seem to imply it's supposed to be rather "blah"...let it be. There are so many other options out there if this mech doesn't suit your needs.

All our IS mechs have extra hard points and various quirks...let's just learn to love or leave our mechs for what they are, instead of yet another plea to make someone's favorite mech super. It'll never end.

[Bishop Steiner]

MikeBend, on 06 February 2015 - 11:51 PM, said:

Missile hardpoint is ok, i enjoy my 1R with ALRM 15, full jumpjets and 4 MLAS, Standard engine. Still cant figure out what to do with 1AA, 2 PPC dont work well for me.

It actually runs your 1R build better, lol. I have done the opposite of you and run the aLRM15/4x MLaser since a day or two of it being introduced. But the main difference is I run an XL, because that weapon loadout is even more effective a harasser at 110 kph. And I almost never lose an ST, until at least after I have lost both arms, anyhow.

I'm not great with the dual PPC build either, though part of that is patience issues..... it's actually a fantastic poptart, despite the low arms...as long as one keeps moving and doesn't get predictable. On my 1R I think I'm running a 225 or 235xl, max JJs, 2 PPC and 3x MLasers (the extra energy slot is why I run it on the 1R instead of the 1AA) and when I can be patient, and the team doesn't collapse, it's solid, if kinda....boring.

[MikeBend]

Bishop Steiner, on 07 February 2015 - 08:08 AM, said:

It actually runs your 1R build better, lol. I have done the opposite of you and run the aLRM15/4x MLaser since a day or two of it being introduced. But the main difference is I run an XL, because that weapon loadout is even more effective a harasser at 110 kph. And I almost never lose an ST, until at least after I have lost both arms, anyhow.

I'm not great with the dual PPC build either, though part of that is patience issues..... it's actually a fantastic poptart, despite the low arms...as long as one keeps moving and doesn't get predictable. On my 1R I think I'm running a 225 or 235xl, max JJs, 2 PPC and 3x MLasers (the extra energy slot is why I run it on the 1R instead of the 1AA) and when I can be patient, and the team doesn't collapse, it's solid, if kinda....boring.

Dont want to run 1AA the same, so i have to invent something Maybe play around that twin ams, i dont know.

Edit: i found out that ignoring mech quirks isnt always bad, sometimes i do good in strange loadouts, like my twin PPC no lrm Hunchback-4j. That 4mlas alrm15 build was the first thing i tried on 1R, So i guess i will come up with something interesting and fun for 1AA too, eventually

Edited by MikeBend, 07 February 2015 - 08:47 AM.

[Bishop Steiner]

MikeBend, on 07 February 2015 - 08:43 AM, said:

Dont want to run 1AA the same, so i have to invent something Maybe play around that twin ams, i dont know.

Edit: i found out that ignoring mech quirks isnt always bad, sometimes i do good in strange loadouts, like my twin PPC no lrm Hunchback-4j. That 4mlas alrm15 build was the first thing i tried on 1R, So i guess i will come up with something interesting and fun for 1AA too, eventually

Actually not saying run them the same just saying the 1AA runs your build better than the 1R, and was just recommending swapping it to that chassis, then messing with the 1R, as it's the better energy variant.

[STEF_]

Bishop Steiner, on 07 February 2015 - 08:08 AM, said:

It actually runs your 1R build better, lol. I have done the opposite of you and run the aLRM15/4x MLaser since a day or two of it being introduced. But the main difference is I run an XL, because that weapon loadout is even more effective a harasser at 110 kph. And I almost never lose an ST, until at least after I have lost both arms, anyhow.

I'm not great with the dual PPC build either, though part of that is patience issues..... it's actually a fantastic poptart, despite the low arms...as long as one keeps moving and doesn't get predictable. On my 1R I think I'm running a 225 or 235xl, max JJs, 2 PPC and 3x MLasers (the extra energy slot is why I run it on the 1R instead of the 1AA) and when I can be patient, and the team doesn't collapse, it's solid, if kinda....boring.

I must be honest, never tried the Vindy with max engine, and yes.... I found that it's not that bad at all, maneuverability too.
Previously I preferred weaponry upon engine, and it was a mistake.

Good built, Bishop!

[Bishop Steiner]

Stefka Kerensky, on 07 February 2015 - 09:28 AM, said:

I must be honest, never tried the Vindy with max engine, and yes.... I found that it's not that bad at all, maneuverability too.
Previously I preferred weaponry upon engine, and it was a mistake.

Good built, Bishop!

thanky! I may be primarily a 4G guy these days, but when I want a mobile Medium, I actually go to my 1AA before my Griffins or anything else these days, though my Auto-Shotty CN9-D is another fun option. But I love my VNDs, badness and all!

[CocoaJin]

Stefka Kerensky, on 07 February 2015 - 09:28 AM, said:

I must be honest, never tried the Vindy with max engine, and yes.... I found that it's not that bad at all, maneuverability too.
Previously I preferred weaponry upon engine, and it was a mistake.

Good built, Bishop!

Looks like someone found the niche. It would appear people just need to learn to appreciate each mech for what is and then build and use it to those strengths...instead of trying to make it into some facsimile of a better received or easier to appreciate mech. Maybe we can put an end to the waves of "PGI, plz pimp my mech" threads if we took the time to this.

[STEF_]

Yes, I can confirm my good impression about your built, I'm enjoying it right now.

With the c-bills earned by leveling enforcer and panther, I'm temped by mastering Vindy.
And the CN9-D, 'cause the centy brothers I have miss him...