65 replies to this topic

[Bishop Steiner]

CocoaJin, on 07 February 2015 - 09:51 AM, said:

Looks like someone found the niche. It would appear people just need to learn to appreciate each mech for what is and then build and use it to those strengths...instead of trying to make it into some facsimile of a better received or easier to appreciate mech. Maybe we can put an end to the waves of "PGI, plz pimp my mech" threads if we took the time to this.

I've been trying to get people to do this, to stop being lemmings, stuck on sniffing tryhard jocks, since CB. Yeah, I'm not a Comp level player (simply don't have time for it, or the reflexes anymore. Have your mouse hand wrist rebuilt 3 times and see how twitchy you are)), but then, neither are 99% of the players in the game. But it's funny how hard they try to imitate Comp MEta..when they have neither the skill nor discipline or coordination to make it truly work.

[MikeBend]

So what about 1x, what to do with that one? I havent got one yet, but i was thinking 235XL Gauss and a pair of mlas - would that work? Bishop, how do you run it, if you have one?

[Bishop Steiner]

MikeBend, on 07 February 2015 - 10:08 AM, said:

So what about 1x, what to do with that one? I havent got one yet, but i was thinking 235XL Gauss and a pair of mlas - would that work? Bishop, how do you run it, if you have one?

I have one, and TBH, it is the only one I haven't settled on a build for. I'm not good at combining gauss and high mobility mechs, so that version doesn't work...for me. Other folks might pull it off fine. Sadly, it's one of the few chassis that to be reasonably effective I think needs to have a "non stock weapon" buff, and get a decent UAC, LBX buff. The Ballistics right now are just subpar to every other ballistic mech in it's general weight bracket, yet it's energy hardpoints are also much weaker than other VNDs.

I think Right now, I got it with somewhere around a 200 engine, and running 2 AC2 and an ER LLaser as a harasser, but it's hands down the hardest one I have found for making a good build on.

[wanderer]

I've actually been in the same boat- my Vindicators gravitated towards the lasers + single ALRM-15 builds, standard engine.

It's not fast, but it's agile enough and like the original in TT, it gets better with multiples. I had the amusing case where in one match by random miracles there was four Vindis with almost identical builds. We ended up pelting things with the combined LRM 60 and anyone who got close was eating a dozen medium lasers. By the end, most of us were missing half a 'Mech, but we had seven kills between us and won.

[Lily from animove]

adder is inferior, but not bad. the srm build and the ppc builds are quite ok and well working. yet inferior to other mechs able to use these loadouts.

CocoaJin, on 07 February 2015 - 09:51 AM, said:

Looks like someone found the niche. It would appear people just need to learn to appreciate each mech for what is and then build and use it to those strengths...instead of trying to make it into some facsimile of a better received or easier to appreciate mech. Maybe we can put an end to the waves of "PGI, plz pimp my mech" threads if we took the time to this.

niche mechs are not good, because many maps or situations don't offer you the working niche, and no matter what your piloting skill is you can notcreate this niche, then you are a rather pointles filled mech in the slot of your team.

Edited by Lily from animove, 07 February 2015 - 11:24 AM.

[Artgathan]

An interesting analysis in the OP. In general I feel that the Vindicator suffers due to it's low number of Missile / Energy Hardpoints.

Medium / Light mechs are reliant on small, hard-hitting weapons for the bulk of their firepower (Medium Lasers + SRM/LRM, historically speaking). 'Light' ballistic weapons (IE: machine-guns) are only useful when used en-mass and backed up by significant firepower (for instance, the Ember's success was due to the combination of Medium Lasers to crack open armor, and machine-guns to eat internals and fall back on when heat started to build up). 'Medium' ballistic weapons (AC2, AC5) are likewise only useful in large numbers (or when backed by strong quirks), but that demands significant amounts of tonnage (the raw weight of the weapons coupled with their need for ammunition). 'Heavy' ballistic weapons simply eat up tonnage and without quirks, do not provide Mediums with the firepower necessary to compete on the battlefield.

Consider the case of the Jenner: it's a small, fast-moving and typically boasts an alpha of ~30. Comparatively speaking, mediums that are reliant on Ballistic and Heavy Energy Weapons will have an alpha of roughly the same value (consider that the 3 ML + AC/20 HBK only has a 35 alpha), while lacking the mobility to dictate an engagement the way a light mech can.

The most successful mediums have traditionally been those that boat medium lasers and SRMs (Shadowhawks being an exception to this). The Vindicator cannot boat SRMs (as most variants have only a single missile hardpoint), and only one variant can 'attempt' to boat MLs (the VND-1R has 5 energy hardpoints, which isn't really boating, but it lacks the needed to make hit-and-run attacks, which will cause it to run into heat issues in sustained engagements). On top of this, the Vindicator has a large target profile while not having the armor levels to justify it's large size (a good marksman with a 30-point alpha will destroy an XL equipped Vindicator in two shots).

The small number of Energy hardpoints makes the Vindicator reliant on heavy energy weapons to give it firepower, but lackluster quirks (the most any variant gets is a +15% energy cooldown (and none have a PPC cooldown quirk) prevent it from having the ability to fire these weapons quickly enough to offset their relatively poor DPS. Additionally, the low engine cap forces at least 1 external HS on each variant, which compounds with the low amount of tonnage to dedicate to additional HS, leading to severe heat issues on any variant relying on heavy energy for firepower.

I want to love the Vindicator (and I do play it quite frequently), but the deck is pretty heavily stacked against it.

[MeiSooHaityu]

Good write-up by the OP.

I agree that the 1X is generally the worst of the group. It doesn't do anything "well" because of poor hard point placement, poor load out, and the fact that a Vindicator is a light medium mech.

The problem stems from the ballistics. I would kill to have 1 less ballistic hard point in the left arm and 1 extra energy in the right.

As it stands, the 1X's 2 energy hard points are 1 in the right arm and one on the left side of the head. They are far apart, and convergence suffers because of it. If I ran a big energy, I can only run 1 large energy and one small because of the 1 crit spot in the head.

If I run bigger ballistics, I can only run 2 and can't even take advantage of the third ballistic anyway. It does an A/C10 poorly also compared to other mediums like the Centurion.

I am currently running the 1X with the biggest XL (XL235 I think), 1 PPC, 1 A/C 5, and 1 SRM4. It is terrible compared to the other Vindis.

Also, why does the 1X receive only a 20% PPC velocity boost instead of the 40%? That makes no sense either.

Honestly, I would like to see all Vindicators do at least 110+ kph. The mech doesn't do firepower as well as other mediums due to its lower tonnage, so it should do speed well at least.

The Vindicator 1X would benefit from the 1 extra right arm energy and one less left arm ballistic, but since that is very unlikely, maybe give the 1X the following...

*Bump PPC velocity to 40%.
*Give it a huge A/C 5 buff in RoF similar to Dragon.
OR
*Give it a huge MG range buff of about 250m ideal band 500m max.

I'd also like to see the engine cap lifted to 295 like the 1AA, but I wouldn't count on it.

Just some ideas.

[STEF_]

Not only the Vindy has 5 tons less than the Centurions, making difficult to mount ballistic weapons ecause they are heavy.
Another factor we must consider is the "hitboxes"
Vindy isn't so tanky, so it's natural to consider it a skirmisher

Even though the Dragon has 10 tons more, do you prefer the cent to brawl or the dragon?

[MeiSooHaityu]

Vindi is definently a skirmisher or sniper. I still feel it needs speed to help make up for the lack of tankyness.

Oddly, I prefer the Centurion as a brawler. Even though its a medium and it is oddly durable (even with an XL). I might like a Dragon over a Centurion for that, but I have largely avoided the Dragons.

[Bishop Steiner]

MeiSooHaityu, on 07 February 2015 - 01:15 PM, said:

Vindi is definently a skirmisher or sniper. I still feel it needs speed to help make up for the lack of tankyness.

Oddly, I prefer the Centurion as a brawler. Even though its a medium and it is oddly durable (even with an XL). I might like a Dragon over a Centurion for that, but I have largely avoided the Dragons.

Define tanky? No it's not a Centurion or Shadowhawk, but I find it pretty easy to spread damage on mine, unless I have a brainfart. The arms still usually go first before I see any significant damage to the torsos. To the point I see zero advantage to running an STD in any of mine. I have tried the bui.lds with STDs, and eithe rtheir escape speed and agility, or their firepower (already light) suffer so much as to consign them to quicker deaths than having an XL, and thus more speed and firepower.

[MikeBend]

Well, for 1X it could be the standard 4mlas(in this case 2mlas 3mg) alrm15 build, or something like this > http://mwo.smurfy-ne...d3e5eb7982e829c

[Bishop Steiner]

MikeBend, on 07 February 2015 - 01:57 PM, said:

Well, for 1X it could be the standard 4mlas(in this case 2mlas 3mg) alrm15 build, or something like this > http://mwo.smurfy-ne...d3e5eb7982e829c

MGs are panacea and totally worthless, if you have less than 4-6 and largely worthless, even then.

[CocoaJin]

Lily from animove, on 07 February 2015 - 11:22 AM, said:

niche mechs are not good, because many maps or situations don't offer you the working niche, and no matter what your piloting skill is you can notcreate this niche, then you are a rather pointles filled mech in the slot of your team.

That's the beauty of customization, it can be a double edge sword. If you specialized toward a niche, you excel when that niche is available to exploit, but you also have a uphill battle when that niche isn't suited for the battlefield environment. Or you can be exactly what Sarna describes the Vindicator to be:

Sarna said:

the Vindicator's "jack-of-all-trades" nature means it does not excel in any one role but fulfills them adequately

Sadly, because most maps in game are more variation on the same niche theme, some mechs will just have a harder time readily exploiting the various tints and shades of the same battlefield environment...but that's not the mech's fault that we lack a more open and dynamic theater of war. What we see in game is that those mechs best suited to exploit these various flavors of vanilla are easier to appreciate...but here is the deal, you generally know what you are getting into when you choose a chassis, and there is no restriction to you moving on to another chassis if this one doesn't suit your needs.

It's bad enough the battlefields are various flavors of vanilla, heavily constrained, logistics-less and resource-less, timed play-dates in a bottle...Let's not make the mechs flavors of vanilla too.

Edited by CocoaJin, 07 February 2015 - 03:25 PM.

[MeiSooHaityu]

Bishop Steiner, on 07 February 2015 - 01:46 PM, said:

Define tanky? No it's not a Centurion or Shadowhawk, but I find it pretty easy to spread damage on mine, unless I have a brainfart. The arms still usually go first before I see any significant damage to the torsos. To the point I see zero advantage to running an STD in any of mine. I have tried the bui.lds with STDs, and eithe rtheir escape speed and agility, or their firepower (already light) suffer so much as to consign them to quicker deaths than having an XL, and thus more speed and firepower.

I think you misunderstood. I was saying the Centurion was relatively tanky (even with an XL for a medium) and that is why I'd run it over a a Dragon.

Like I said though, I haven't played a Dragon and if I did, I might change my mind. You make it sounded like I prefer the Centurion over the Dragon based on playing both and just choosing the Cent. I'm saying I play what I know and I don't know the Dragon.

Unless I'm misunderstanding lol.

[CocoaJin]

MeiSooHaityu, on 07 February 2015 - 03:33 PM, said:

I think you misunderstood. I was saying the Centurion was relatively tanky (even with an XL for a medium) and that is why I'd run it over a a Dragon.

Like I said though, I haven't played a Dragon and if I did, I might change my mind. You make it sounded like I prefer the Centurion over the Dragon based on playing both and just choosing the Cent. I'm saying I play what I know and I don't know the Dragon.

Unless I'm misunderstanding lol.

The Dragon provides a joy that only a troll can experience when it's winning. You'll have fits of Cosby face and hysterical laughing cartoon hyena. Oh the joy!

[Bishop Steiner]

MeiSooHaityu, on 07 February 2015 - 03:33 PM, said:

I think you misunderstood. I was saying the Centurion was relatively tanky (even with an XL for a medium) and that is why I'd run it over a a Dragon.

Like I said though, I haven't played a Dragon and if I did, I might change my mind. You make it sounded like I prefer the Centurion over the Dragon based on playing both and just choosing the Cent. I'm saying I play what I know and I don't know the Dragon.

Unless I'm misunderstanding lol.

MeiSooHaityu, on 07 February 2015 - 01:15 PM, said:

Vindi is definently a skirmisher or sniper. I still feel it needs speed to help make up for the lack of tankyness.

[Vassago Rain]

The vindicator's so bad, most people don't even know it exists.

[Bigbacon]

AA 5 MPL+ SRM6

great little thing.

[MeiSooHaityu]

Yes! Just Mastered the Vindicator 1X! Time to pull the engine, strip it down, and tuck it away.

Now I can put that engine in the Vindicator 1R and get back to using that instead.

[Bishop Steiner]

Bigbacon, on 07 February 2015 - 03:52 PM, said:

AA 5 MPL+ SRM6

great little thing.

aside from the part where the AA only has 4 Energy Hardpoints? 1R has 5.