117 replies to this topic

[CantHandletheTruth]

Gattsus, on 07 February 2015 - 12:10 PM, said:

This a a story that I missed. I arrived after the implementation of ghost heat.

I tried looking for it but didn't find the reason why ghost heat was implemented instead of sized hardpoints to limit brokent/op builds?

Anyone with memory or a handy link?

Once upon a time there was a troll build that was a 6 PPC stalker, per usual this thing could only fire twice before overheating and it alpha'd for (surprise) 60 damage. It was really a joke, slow, ungodly hot, BUT it would get two/three kills a game. So much like LRM spam threads the whiners took to well...everywhere screaming PPC OP!!!!! OMG STALKERS and whatnot. Like I said troll build, the x4 PPC/bunch of other stuff was a real build, and it was frigging nasty, this was also back in the days of 8 heat PPCs.

So PGI implemented ghost heat and the x6 PPC troll builds, and 100 LRM builds (yeah they did that) went away almost over night. True to form the Nerfinator took this WAY to far and added ghost heat to everything in the name of "balance" and "weapon diversity" and we have the current crap we have today.

[Quxudica]

AEgg, on 07 February 2015 - 01:44 PM, said:

The simple answer is that sized hardpoints don't actually solve any problems.

The Nova, Awesome, and Jagermech are prime examples of exacly why sized hardpoints don't solve anything. They just restrict the "good" loadouts to very particular chassis. And that's even more restricting than ghost heat is.

How could those mechs (or any mech) illustrate a problem with a restriction mechanic that doesn't exist in the game? I'm sleep deprived so maybe I'm just not following your logic here. The idea behind weapon sizes is that a PPC cannon does not magically shrink from being a massive weapon pod on a K2 to neatly tucked into a Jaeger's side torso.

[CantHandletheTruth]

Quxudica, on 07 February 2015 - 01:58 PM, said:

How could those mechs (or any mech) illustrate a problem with a restriction mechanic that doesn't exist in the game? I'm sleep deprived so maybe I'm just not following your logic here. The idea behind weapon sizes is that a PPC cannon does not magically shrink from being a massive weapon pod on a K2 to neatly tucked into a Jaeger's side torso.

Because it doesn't change anything, people will throw whatever works this month on.

IF you want the TTK to get longer look no further than the convergence, its the root of about 5-6 generations of "balancing" changes. PGI is to the point that they are using quirks to get rid of balance decisions THAT THEY MADE.

[Escef]

Serpieri, on 07 February 2015 - 01:18 PM, said:

Ghost heat has failed...

It has? I don't see Stalkers boating 4-6 PPCs anymore. You don't see every Tom, ****, and Harry running a Dire Star, do you? You don't see stock Nova Primes ripping people limb from limb, do you?

[CantHandletheTruth]

Escef, on 07 February 2015 - 02:09 PM, said:

It has? I don't see Stalkers boating 4-6 PPCs anymore. You don't see every Tom, ****, and Harry running a Dire Star, do you? You don't see stock Nova Primes ripping people limb from limb, do you?

I would get a giggle out of a 4/6 PPC stalker now, the game has changed a LOT since they were actually an "issue"

[Escef]

CantHandletheTruth, on 07 February 2015 - 02:12 PM, said:

I would get a giggle out of a 4/6 PPC stalker now, the game has changed a LOT since they were actually an "issue"

Which is why there are no complaints about the 9S Thunderbolt, right?

[darkchylde]

All they had to do was limit the stalker to 2 PPC's only but instead energy mechs got penalized and Daka Mechs ruled the battlefield.

[CantHandletheTruth]

Escef, on 07 February 2015 - 02:20 PM, said:

Which is why there are no complaints about the 9S Thunderbolt, right?

Which isn't even that good, its annoying sure.

The logical screamiing about the T-Bolt is philosophical, why the hell does a 65 tonner have better ER-PPC quirks than the AWS-9M which is a dedicated ER-PPC mech.

The other thing is the Thud's super tier ER-PPC speed quirk, which the Stalkers don't get SO even if there were 4/6 PPC stalkers running around they would be short range AND have a fraction of velocity that a thud or Awesome would have.

darkchylde, on 07 February 2015 - 02:21 PM, said:

All they had to do was limit the stalker to 2 PPC's only but instead energy mechs got penalized and Daka Mechs ruled the battlefield.

Actually everyone pop-tarted for a year and a half until Nerfinator made hover jets.

[Escef]

darkchylde, on 07 February 2015 - 02:21 PM, said:

All they had to do was limit the stalker to 2 PPC's...

And the issue would have shifted to the Atlas RS and the Catapult K2. The Cataphracts were also seeing quad PPC builds.

[darkchylde]

Quote

Actually everyone pop-tarted for a year and a half until Nerfinator made hover jets.

Pop - Tarting was a separate issue in itself.

Escef, on 07 February 2015 - 02:25 PM, said:

And the issue would have shifted to the Atlas RS and the Catapult K2. The Cataphracts were also seeing quad PPC builds.

And this is why hard point limitations are needed. The only mechs that should have 3-4 ppcs are the ones built to do so.

Edited by darkchylde, 07 February 2015 - 02:34 PM.

[Wingbreaker]

Because we're not playing MW4.

Bad system was bad.

[Escef]

CantHandletheTruth, on 07 February 2015 - 02:23 PM, said:

Which isn't even that good, its annoying sure.

Good enough that it's been squeezing out every other Inner Sphere heavy in CW. And people leveling them clogged the regular queues for a while (it's died down a lot lately, though). Honestly, while I don't think the 9S is as good as people make it out to be, it is still good enough to choke off variety. Just as I expect the Nova Cat would eclipse most of the clan heavies in CW if it were released (5 tons lighter than the Timby, only about 18 kph slower, more available tonnage for equipment). (Dear gawds, imagine a drop deck of 3x Nova Cat, 1x Kit Fox? Ugh.)

Edited by Escef, 07 February 2015 - 02:37 PM.

[CantHandletheTruth]

darkchylde, on 07 February 2015 - 02:33 PM, said:

Pop - Tarting was a separate issue in itself.



And this is why hard point limitations are needed. The only mechs that should have 3-4 ppcs are the ones built to do so.

BECAUSE I SAID SO!!!!!

Hell a lot of the mechs that are SUPPOSED to run PPCs can't. You know the Warhawk prime? It has four ER-PPCs STOCK.

.......ever hear anyone calling that OP? NO? Thought not.

[Senor Cataclysmo]

Quxudica, on 07 February 2015 - 01:24 PM, said:

Stubborn refusal to accept that the true problems are inherent to the games heat mechanics and universal convergence. Ghost Heat was always a bandaid, and a rather convoluted one at that.

I've always wished weapons had logical sim-style requirements. What is this magical unit of measurement we call a critical? Why are 14 "criticals" on a Raven the exact same as 14 on an Atlas? Why are PPC's on a Catapult the size of a Ravens torso but on that same Raven they are barely bigger than machine guns? Why does the Hunchback 4G have an enormous weapon cowling on it's shoulder when other mechs can mount that AC/20 without having that bulk?

I would have vastly prefered weapons to have designated set dimensions and require hardpoints that can accomodate them. Yes it limits builds, but thats part of the point. Without some build limitation there's little reason for half of currently existing mechs to exist at all and no reason for some chassis to be designed the way they are.

Weapon Size Limitations do not mean you can't slap a Gauss Rifle on a light if you want to do so, it just means you need to buy a Hollander Artillery Mech and not an Electronic Warfare Raven.

Yes. This. One hundred thousand times this. I couldn't agree more.

[Knight Magus]

Wingbreaker, on 07 February 2015 - 02:34 PM, said:

Because we're not playing MW4.

Bad system was bad.

What are you smokin? MW4 was an amazing game.

[Phlinger]

Why Ghost Heat Instead Of Sized Hardpoints?


Because, if they were to take the, and make it, and then do the other, then turn over, and do that, would make it, and to resolve the, and balance of a, which leads to, and here we have it.

Ta Da! There's your answer.

[Wingbreaker]

Knight Magus, on 07 February 2015 - 02:39 PM, said:

What are you smokin? MW4 was an amazing game.

It was such an amazing game we only had to wait 10 years for Microsoft to lease the IP.

Yeah. Such fanbase! Much wow.

[darkchylde]

CantHandletheTruth, on 07 February 2015 - 02:36 PM, said:

BECAUSE I SAID SO!!!!!

Hell a lot of the mechs that are SUPPOSED to run PPCs can't. You know the Warhawk prime? It has four ER-PPCs STOCK.

.......ever hear anyone calling that OP? NO? Thought not.

because you said so..um....what are you talking about?

Yes the Warhawk has 4 ERPPC's - again what is your point?

[Knight Magus]

Wingbreaker, on 07 February 2015 - 02:46 PM, said:

It was such an amazing game we only had to wait 10 years for Microsoft to lease the IP.

Yeah. Such fanbase! Much wow.

Post a link as to why Microsoft held onto the license that supports this.

[Rebas Kradd]

tortuousGoddess, on 07 February 2015 - 01:16 PM, said:

I don't get how sized hardpoints is somehow supposed to be a less arbitrary restriction than ghost heat is. Same problems, slightly shifted meta.

Probably because it limits like 80% of the possible permutations of mechs, something Russ said they don't want to do. They want full customization as a staple of the game.