117 replies to this topic

[CantHandletheTruth]

Rebas Kradd, on 07 February 2015 - 02:51 PM, said:

Probably because it limits like 80% of the possible permutations of mechs, something Russ said they don't want to do. They want full customization as a staple of the game.

Ok so let me customize my Omni's

Ever try to make a not joke build out of a Gargoyle or Summoner?

[AssaultPig]

mike29tw, on 07 February 2015 - 01:13 PM, said:

Ghost heat is anything but simple. I can pull the whole mech lab restrictions rules anytime from the back of my head and explain the rules to anyone. Nobody can cite the whole ghost heat penalty table with memory, all they can tell you is "2 PPC alpha, good; 3 PPC alpha, bad."

there's no reason you need to be able to quote the whole table from memory

all players really need to know about ghost heat is that firing more than a certain number of weapons generates more heat than normal. More than two ppcs, more than six mlas, etc. That is relatively easy to remember, and applicable to every chassis.

It's not as though sized hardpoints are rocket science but it would certainly be more difficult to remember all the permutations offhand and probably be more difficult to balance them all.

[Insects]

Sounds like fixed hard points would only encourage the very builds ghost heat was designed to kill (eg long range energy boat stalkers). Some mechs are designed to do that stuff and everyone will simply flock to them.

Removal of convergence would favor things like Hunchback which mount weapons in a cluster so they will still hit in a tight group. Smaller mechs will be at an advantage because they naturally have less separation than a wide assault.

Every "solution" creates more issues than it solves.

[Serpieri]

joelmuzz, on 07 February 2015 - 03:21 PM, said:

Sounds like fixed hard points would only encourage the very builds ghost heat was designed to kill (eg long range energy boat stalkers). Some mechs are designed to do that stuff and everyone will simply flock to them.

Removal of convergence would favor things like Hunchback which mount weapons in a cluster so they will still hit in a tight group. Smaller mechs will be at an advantage because they naturally have less separation than a wide assault.

Every "solution" creates more issues than it solves.

How so? The only mechs that would have the ability to use 3 or 4 ppcs - would be the Awesome and Warhawk?

[Lily from animove]

because too big heattreshold, even with hardpointsizes do you want a Nova to be able to fire all 12 CERML at once? or any direwold able to fire all his laserhardpoints + ballictics? not really, this would indeed be overkill.

I still say 30 heat max treshold, this already limits simultaneous weapon fire.

[Escef]

Serpieri, on 07 February 2015 - 03:25 PM, said:

How so? The only mechs that would have the ability to use 3 or 4 ppcs - would be the Awesome and Warhawk?

What about the Battlemaster? 3 energy points per torso on the 1G, 3M, and 3S (Hellslinger has 2 per side torso and 1 per arm). Or would you limit them to only using their longest range energy weapons in that low slung right arm mount?

[Quxudica]

Rebas Kradd, on 07 February 2015 - 02:51 PM, said:

Probably because it limits like 80% of the possible permutations of mechs, something Russ said they don't want to do. They want full customization as a staple of the game.

This is a backwards way of looking at it and it depresses me they take this viewpoint. limitations are not always a bad thing, they serve to differentiate chassis, helping define the roles of each variant. Without chassis-specific limitations you wind up with homogenization and you deprive certain designs of character.

A hunchback looks like a hunchback because it was purpose built to carry a canon meant for much large mechs. The Catapult has giant LRM racks because it *needs them* to physically carry LRM 20s. When you remove size from these weapon systems as a factor, you leave these chassis with glaring silhouette and hitbox handicaps that no longer serve any function. What purpose does a Hollander serve when a Raven can mount the weapon the Hollander was specifically built for?

/tangent
Quirks were also, in my opinion, taken in the wrong direction. It makes sense that some chassis would be better with some weapons, but it should not have been 100% meta-centric even when it completely ignored the chassis stock purpose on some (k-2 and trebs for example). Quirks should have been more about *that chassis*, a hunchback should have better critical protection for equipment in its hunch, a raven should have bonuses to support functionality (narc/tag/sensor range etc), whales should have damage reduction from above and Vertical cockpit immunity thanks to that huge canopy.

Far to much of the quirk system is dedicated to directly buffing *weapons* instead of helping define the mechs themselves.

Edited by Quxudica, 07 February 2015 - 03:49 PM.

[Serpieri]

Escef, on 07 February 2015 - 03:30 PM, said:

What about the Battlemaster? 3 energy points per torso on the 1G, 3M, and 3S (Hellslinger has 2 per side torso and 1 per arm). Or would you limit them to only using their longest range energy weapons in that low slung right arm mount?

Battlemaster 1G - 1 Large Energy Hard Point - 6 Medium Energy Hard Points - 1 Medium Missile Hard Points - 2 Small Ballistic Hard Points

Battlemaster 3M - is pretty much identical to the above version - 1 Small Ballistic is removed

Battlemaster 3S - 1 Large Energy Hard Point - 5 Medium Energy Hard Points - 2 Large Missile Hard Points

Battlemaster Hellsinger - 2 Large Energy Hard Point - 4 Medium Energy Hard Points - 3 Small Missile Hard Points

For Placement - follow the original mech skeleton - so in this case - Large Energy Hard Points would be in the arms. Below is a link for MW4 system - 3 = Large, 2=Medium, 1=Small.


http://www.sarna.net..._%28Resource%29

Edited by Serpieri, 07 February 2015 - 08:09 PM.

[Kaeb Odellas]

darkchylde, on 07 February 2015 - 02:33 PM, said:

Pop - Tarting was a separate issue in itself.

The biggest contributor of poptarting basically was PPCs. You can't really poptart with lasers, and until the DWF-S, there were no JJ mechs that could fit multiple AC20s or Gauss rifles.

Rebas Kradd, on 07 February 2015 - 02:51 PM, said:

Probably because it limits like 80% of the possible permutations of mechs, something Russ said they don't want to do. They want full customization as a staple of the game.

Again, soft limits would allow you to make any dumb build you want. You would just get a penalty for exceeding the size limits.

Escef, on 07 February 2015 - 03:30 PM, said:

What about the Battlemaster? 3 energy points per torso on the 1G, 3M, and 3S (Hellslinger has 2 per side torso and 1 per arm). Or would you limit them to only using their longest range energy weapons in that low slung right arm mount?

You could have multiple hardpoints share crit slots. So instead of 3 1-slot hardpoints on the BLR's side torso, you could give it a block of 4 slots that can accomodate 3 hardpoints, so you can fit 2 LLs, 1LL and 2 MLs, or 1 PPC and 1ML per torso. And if you use soft restrictions, you could fit 3 PPCs on there if you want. You just incur penalties to heat or cooldown or whatever.

Edited by Kaeb Odellas, 07 February 2015 - 05:15 PM.

[darkchylde]

Kaeb Odellas, on 07 February 2015 - 05:12 PM, said:

The biggest contributor of poptarting basically was PPCs. You can't really poptart with lasers, and until the DWF-S, there were no JJ mechs that could fit multiple AC20s or Gauss rifles.

It was the combination of Ballistics/PPCs - and poor JJ mechanics.

[Kaeb Odellas]

darkchylde, on 07 February 2015 - 05:25 PM, said:

It was the combination of Ballistics/PPCs - and poor JJ mechanics.

PPCs were still the biggest factor I'd say. Every poptart had at least a PPC equipped. That's why I shook my head in disbelief when they applied the charge mechanic to the Gauss rifle instead of the PPCs. Everyone just switched to AC20s or dual AC5s.

[Ralgas]

As plenty of ppl have said it doesn't solve the issue, it just shifts the meta to a new chassis.

sized hard points favor cannon boats, which will then run rampart.

convergence has a whole host of issues between lrm spam, mech size differentials and hardpoint layouts, depending on how you work it.

GH has it's faults with new player explanation and the arbitrary way in which it was implemented, but with tweaking could still be the best across the board penalty solution for alpha spam in the mwo environment imo.

Edited by Ralgas, 07 February 2015 - 05:32 PM.

[Black Arachne]

Ralgas, on 07 February 2015 - 05:31 PM, said:

As plenty of ppl have said it doesn't solve the issue, it just shifts the meta to a new chassis.

sized hard points favor cannon boats, which will then run rampart.

convergence has a whole host of issues between lrm spam, mech size differentials and hardpoint layouts, depending on how you work it.

GH has it's faults with new player explanation and the arbitrary way in which it was implemented, but with tweaking could still be the best across the board penalty solution for alpha spam in the mwo environment imo.

Cannon Boats, I'd be more afraid of what players are currently boating. Any mechanic that needs a fix on top of it to correct game problems it has caused needs to go.

[CantHandletheTruth]

Black Arachne, on 07 February 2015 - 05:45 PM, said:

Cannon Boats, I'd be more afraid of what players are currently boating. Any mechanic that needs a fix on top of it to correct game problems it has caused needs to go.

That would be convergance

.....how many changes have been made due to their perfect convergance
mlas heat nerf (CB)
engine caps (because we were running around with 9 slas hunchies)
Gauss nerf #1 three Hp (was 10)
Guass nerf #2 assured explosion (it used to be like 30%)
Gauss nerf #3 charge times
Guass nerf #4 speed reduction (was 2200m/s at one point)
Guass nerf #5 Can only charge two
PPC heat increase (remember 2200m/s 8 heat standards om nom nom)
PPC projectile nerf ....I think we are on the third or fourth one now AND they keep removing it with quircks
Ghost heat!
All smalls and medium clan lasers being ghost linked ER/LPL being ghost linked
AND a huge clan laser time nerf as well as "burst fire" clan UACs which makes them basically not worth the tonnage except on a whale.

That is what they have been doing ALL the while convergence was the issue.

[Escef]

Serpieri, on 07 February 2015 - 04:05 PM, said:

Battlemaster 1G - 1 Large Energy Hard Point - 6 Medium Energy Hard Points - 1 Large Missile Hard Points - 2 Small Ballistic Hard Points

Battlemaster 3M - is pretty much identical to the above version - 1 Small Ballistic is removed

Battlemaster 3S - 1 Large Energy Hard Point - 5 Medium Energy Hard Points - 2 Large Missile Hard Points

Battlemaster Hellsinger - 2 Large Energy Hard Point - 4 Medium Energy Hard Points - 3 Small Missile Hard Points

For Placement - follow the original mech skeleton - so in this case - Large Energy Hard Points would be in the arms. Below is a link for MW4 system - 3 = Large, 2=Medium, 1=Small.


http://www.sarna.net..._%28Resource%29

And you've already made this bizarre. Why should the 1G get a large missile hardpoint? All it originally carried was an SRM6, and you want to be able to cram a Thunderbolt15 launcher in there? Similar for the 3S and its launchers. The 3M you've made straight up inferior to the 1G. Meanwhile, those torso energy points that are so good for long range guns are all but wasted with small fry guns that are only useful up close. You've severely hampered customization to the point that there isn't much other than stock builds.

I mean, yeah, you could have done worse. But this is part of why I don't trust the majority of people in the community to come up with balance ideas. People put out a crapton of ideas they think will fix things, and they mean well enough, but in practical application will just screw things up even worse.

[Brody319]

I think it limits customization. joke builds like the like Direstar wouldn't be possible.

[Serpieri]

Escef, on 07 February 2015 - 06:41 PM, said:

And you've already made this bizarre. Why should the 1G get a large missile hardpoint? All it originally carried was an SRM6, and you want to be able to cram a Thunderbolt15 launcher in there? Similar for the 3S and its launchers. The 3M you've made straight up inferior to the 1G. Meanwhile, those torso energy points that are so good for long range guns are all but wasted with small fry guns that are only useful up close. You've severely hampered customization to the point that there isn't much other than stock builds.

I mean, yeah, you could have done worse. But this is part of why I don't trust the majority of people in the community to come up with balance ideas. People put out a crapton of ideas they think will fix things, and they mean well enough, but in practical application will just screw things up even worse.

Sorry that was a mistake on the 1G - SRM6 is a medium. The 3M loses a MG for case. Tons of customization is available, this would also control how much damage can be outputted at the various ranges. And these aren't my ideas - these are based on what the mech variants were given.

Brody319, on 07 February 2015 - 06:46 PM, said:

I think it limits customization. joke builds like the like Direstar wouldn't be possible.

Precisely.

Edited by Serpieri, 07 February 2015 - 07:22 PM.

[Black Arachne]

System has a lot of potential builds and in no way is it limited - using the above Battlemaster example. One Large energy in the arm (3slots) - so you can go with a ERPPC/PPC or Large Laser+Medium Laser (Pulse, ER, or Reg) or 3 Small Lasers ( (Pulse, ER, or Reg). The Missile slot can be either a LRM-20, LRM-15, 2xLRM10's, 2xLRM-5s, SRM-6, 2xSRM-4, 2XSRM-2 or 2xStreak SRM-2's. Same goes for the medium energy slots.

Edited by Black Arachne, 07 February 2015 - 07:44 PM.

[Ralgas]

CantHandletheTruth, on 07 February 2015 - 05:52 PM, said:

That would be convergance

.....how many changes have been made due to their perfect convergance
mlas heat nerf (CB)
engine caps (because we were running around with 9 slas hunchies)
Gauss nerf #1 three Hp (was 10)
Guass nerf #2 assured explosion (it used to be like 30%)
Gauss nerf #3 charge times
Guass nerf #4 speed reduction (was 2200m/s at one point)
Guass nerf #5 Can only charge two
PPC heat increase (remember 2200m/s 8 heat standards om nom nom)
PPC projectile nerf ....I think we are on the third or fourth one now AND they keep removing it with quircks
Ghost heat!
All smalls and medium clan lasers being ghost linked ER/LPL being ghost linked
AND a huge clan laser time nerf as well as "burst fire" clan UACs which makes them basically not worth the tonnage except on a whale.

That is what they have been doing ALL the while convergence was the issue.

So you're preference is even better god mode lights or lrm spam?

Edited by Ralgas, 07 February 2015 - 08:05 PM.

[El Bandito]

Quxudica, on 07 February 2015 - 01:24 PM, said:

Weapon Size Limitations do not mean you can't slap a Gauss Rifle on a light if you want to do so, it just means you need to buy a Hollander Artillery Mech and not an Electronic Warfare Raven.

^ THIS. ******* THIS. You want a Large Laser Raven, you go Raven 2X--cause the 2X had large class laser slot in canon. You want PPC Light, you go Panther. You want a Gauss Light, you go Hollander.

Edited by El Bandito, 07 February 2015 - 08:09 PM.