117 replies to this topic

[Deathlike]

mike29tw, on 08 February 2015 - 12:03 AM, said:

Obligatory reminder that 4 PPC Stalker happened when PPC was at 7 heat and ERPPC was at 11.
Right now, PPC has 10 heat and ERPPC has 15.

Actually, PPC had a heat value of 8 during the dark ages.

I remember... because I actually wrote about why the current heat system is bad.

Fun times.

[Mechwarrior Buddah]

anyone have the twitter where they said it was to stop pinpoint damage or whatever


It was a knee jerk reaction and not well thought out imo

Jaeger Gonzo, on 07 February 2015 - 01:17 PM, said:

WHY NOT MORE BATTLETECH IN BATTLETECH GAME?

cause its hard

Edited by Mechwarrior Buddah, 08 February 2015 - 09:41 AM.

[Mechwarrior Buddah]

CantHandletheTruth, on 07 February 2015 - 01:58 PM, said:

Once upon a time there was a troll build that was a 6 PPC stalker, per usual this thing could only fire twice before overheating and it alpha'd for (surprise) 60 damage. It was really a joke, slow, ungodly hot, BUT it would get two/three kills a game. So much like LRM spam threads the whiners took to well...everywhere screaming PPC OP!!!!! OMG STALKERS and whatnot. Like I said troll build, the x4 PPC/bunch of other stuff was a real build, and it was frigging nasty, this was also back in the days of 8 heat PPCs.

IMO the devs were running against a lot of these in their elo bracket so they thought they were a bigger problem than they were. From what Ive seen the fastest way to get a knee jerk reaction from the devs in shove it right in their faces as they seemed at the time to be "balancing" the game on the things they were having issues with mainly.

For instance, collisions



Now theyll say that it was a coincidence that two weeks after that was posted collisions were removed from the game and not really talked about for the subsequent three years that followed.

My theory is that he got so pissed at being humiliated in his own game that the mechanic got ripped out of the game, but thats me.

Edited by Mechwarrior Buddah, 08 February 2015 - 09:52 AM.

[kapusta11]

At least Ghost Heat is less limiting that Sized Hardpoints, there should be no such thing like hardpoints to begin with.

[Rebas Kradd]

El Bandito, on 08 February 2015 - 06:35 AM, said:

The reason we do not have the old convergence is because it was not working well with the hit-registration. Instead of trying to make them work, PGI opted for the lazy way out.

As I recall, they mentioned that gamers in general want their weapons to go where the crosshair is, instead of having it artificially spread all over the place. As MWO is unique in firing multiple weapons of different types, PGI decided to assent to general gamer desires and opt for convergence, which then required them to find a mechanic to prevent excessive boating.

[Aethon]

LordKnightFandragon, on 08 February 2015 - 09:00 AM, said:

Doubled Armor I think is fine. I always kinda felt TT values were pretty dang low overall. Then again, I never did play a game, it just seemed like even an Assault mech would die in just a few shots given the armor values. I know the spread and hard to hit stuff of that game, but still...

Doubled armor is fine in this game

I have no problem with doubled armor, the way accuracy works in MWO; with pinpoint accuracy, I agree that we need it.

The standard armor values still made an Atlas plenty scary, though; low though they may seem, most games are fought with stock (or mostly stock) mechs, and even something like a King Crab would need some very lucky shots to take an Atlas out in less than 3-4 turns. First, the shots have to connect. Then, they have to hit the same location. Then, they either need to cook off the Atlas's ammo or destroy its engine; failing that, they need to core the mech (assuming it is not an AS7-K). Your average mech will take quite some time to whittle away at the massive slab of mech that is an Atlas. The only thing that can really shorten this is a headshot (or a few, depending on the weapon/s used).

Also, this is assuming the Atlas is not carrying hardened armor and/or reinforced internal structure/armored components. If it is, your dice arm may give out before the Atlas, lol.

[Escef]

kapusta11, on 08 February 2015 - 09:56 AM, said:

At least Ghost Heat is less limiting that Sized Hardpoints, there should be no such thing like hardpoints to begin with.

I recall being shown the hardpoint system in MW4 and as a result wanting nothing to do with the game. When I heard that MWO was going to use a hardpoint system I was not impressed, but decided I'd give it a try.

And you know what? I think the current implementation of hardpoints and table top critical allocations does a fair amount to encourage build diversity. It creates a system with both lots of options and limitations. Is it ideal? Probably not. But it works. If the system were more open my YLW would have 4xML instead of 2xMPL... In fact, without ghost heat and hard point restrictions, how many mechs do you suppose would just be fast medium laser boats? Probably every light and medium mech. Not that those would get played. Without 3x4, this game would likely devolve into Assault Mechs Online.

Yeah, I think there have been a few times when PGI made less than optimal decisions. Whether that be weapon heat (ERPPC heat too low at 13 but too high at 15? leave it at 15!... 14? That's a number?), or quirks (Hey, let's overquirk a sub-par mech so that a no longer broken good weapon is nutty just on that mech and see what happens!), or ECM implementation (Hey, remember when it made dorritos disappear?), PGI has proven that they are not immune to errors or visitations from the Good Idea Fairy^TM. But for everything they've done wrong, everything that's been put on a backburner, for all the promises that sound like they were made with good intentions while drunk off their asses (No, wait, we promised them WHAT?), the game is still FUN. Imperfect, but fun all the same. And getting better.

I'm not going to make judgements on their intelligence or work ethic; especially as I've done pretty much no coding since I was in high school (over 20 years ago now), so I don't know the scope or magnitude of what they have to work with. All I CAN say is what I like, what I don't like, and sometimes wonder why they made certain decisions. And anything much more than that is either straight up conjecture (which I will usually add a disclaimer for) or talking out of my a** (which I avoid doing).

[Nori Silverrage]

Not sure if this was answered. But how would this work on something like the Jager? Two AC20s would have no limiter on them like ghost heat does. Now I suppose a Jager has to give up a lot to get two AC20s. But yeah if hardpoints are supposed to discourage boating how would it stop dual guass and ac20 stuff?

[mike29tw]

Escef, on 08 February 2015 - 09:28 AM, said:

Ok, so because it was a fast solution that you also happen to not like, that experienced players don't use... What? It's such a non-issue. It's like going to a drive through and getting handed your napkins instead of them being on the bag, it isn't a big deal.

Nope. I was simply presenting a controversy in the brief MWO development history in response to your point that PGI makes the perfect design decision in terms of man-hours and features that cannot be questioned.

Escef, on 08 February 2015 - 09:28 AM, said:

Ok, you know what? Show me what you've done. Show me how qualified you are to make judgements on their intelligence and work ethic based upon all of the work you have done in the field. I mean, you MUST be an expert, or at lest work in the field, to have this kind of insight, right? Well?

Common fallacy. One does not have to be a successful director or a world-renowned film critic to know that Uwe Boll has made, and will continue to make, bad movies only.

My experience in the related field has nothing to do with the status quo of MWO.

[Escef]

mike29tw, on 08 February 2015 - 11:18 AM, said:

...in response to your point that PGI makes the perfect design decision in terms of man-hours and features that cannot be questioned.

I said no such thing, you lying sack.

[mike29tw]

Escef, on 08 February 2015 - 11:19 AM, said:

I said no such thing, you lying sack.

lol alright you caught me. That was hyperbolic. But a short recap:

Escef, on 08 February 2015 - 06:49 AM, said:

Ok, so, do you know how much work it would have been to fix it? Have you done the cost/benefit analysis? How many man-hours would go into it? Man-hours that could be spent on other things?

You were indeed questioning his qualification to judge PGI's decision, were you not? In which case, I pointed out that PGI has made bad decisions on MWO before, such as the 3PV implementation. And then you replied:

Escef, on 08 February 2015 - 09:28 AM, said:

Ok, so because it was a fast solution that you also happen to not like, that experienced players don't use... What? It's such a non-issue. It's like going to a drive through and getting handed your napkins instead of them being on the bag, it isn't a big deal.

Not gonna reply to this because there really isn't an argument in there. But this:

Escef, on 08 February 2015 - 09:28 AM, said:

Ok, you know what? Show me what you've done. Show me how qualified you are to make judgements on their intelligence and work ethic based upon all of the work you have done in the field. I mean, you MUST be an expert, or at lest work in the field, to have this kind of insight, right? Well?

Fallacy detected, hence my previous post.

[Escef]

mike29tw, on 08 February 2015 - 11:33 AM, said:

lol alright you caught me.

Not like it was difficult. Also, BTW, if I think PGI is above criticism, explain why I said this:

Escef, on 08 February 2015 - 10:30 AM, said:

Yeah, I think there have been a few times when PGI made less than optimal decisions. Whether that be weapon heat (ERPPC heat too low at 13 but too high at 15? leave it at 15!... 14? That's a number?), or quirks (Hey, let's overquirk a sub-par mech so that a no longer broken good weapon is nutty just on that mech and see what happens!), or ECM implementation (Hey, remember when it made dorritos disappear?), PGI has proven that they are not immune to errors or visitations from the Good Idea Fairy^TM. But for everything they've done wrong, everything that's been put on a backburner, for all the promises that sound like they were made with good intentions while drunk off their asses (No, wait, we promised them WHAT?), the game is still FUN. Imperfect, but fun all the same.

Not only are you a liar, you're bad at it.

Edited by Escef, 08 February 2015 - 11:43 AM.

[mike29tw]

Escef, on 08 February 2015 - 11:43 AM, said:

Not like it was difficult. Also, BTW, if I think PGI is above criticism, explain why I said this:



Not only are you a liar, you're bad at it.

You point out your own inconsistency and said I'm a liar because of it? What you've said earlier is irrelevant to the fact that you pulled an ad hominem on El Bandito because he questioned PGI's ability to make the right decision.

[Escef]

mike29tw, on 08 February 2015 - 11:51 AM, said:

You point out your own inconsistency and said I'm a liar because of it? What you've said earlier is irrelevant to the fact that you pulled an ad hominem on El Bandito because he questioned PGI's ability to make the right decision.

No, you thickheaded fool, I question his qualifications to call them stupid and lazy. I NEVER said he isn't qualified to say he does not like the end result of a decision and to conclude that it was probably the wrong one. I questioned HIS justification to make Ad Hominems. But I guess that's too complicated for you. Far easier for you to distort my words and out right lie about what I've said. I'm done with you.

[mike29tw]

Escef, on 08 February 2015 - 12:01 PM, said:

No, you thickheaded fool, I question his qualifications to call them stupid and lazy. I NEVER said he isn't qualified to say he does not like the end result of a decision and to conclude that it was probably the wrong one. I questioned HIS justification to make Ad Hominems. But I guess that's too complicated for you. Far easier for you to distort my words and out right lie about what I've said. I'm done with you.

He didn't make any ad hominem argument at all.

An ad hominem (Latin for "to the man" or "to the person"^[1]), short forargumentum ad hominem, means responding to arguments by attacking a person's character, rather than to the content of their arguments.

Pasted from Wiki. Devaluing a person's argument by addressing the person himself rather than the argument he makes is in fact an ad hominem. In order to counter El Bandito's claim, you have to address why PGI is not lazy in their ghost heat solution, instead of telling El Bandito that he doesn't have the qualification to make such claim, therefore they are invalid.

And the names you've been throwing at me, such as

Escef, on 08 February 2015 - 11:19 AM, said:

you lying sack.

Escef, on 08 February 2015 - 11:43 AM, said:

Not only are you a liar, you're bad at it.

Escef, on 08 February 2015 - 12:01 PM, said:

you thickheaded fool

really, really doesn't help your stance.

Edited by mike29tw, 08 February 2015 - 12:26 PM.

[Black Arachne]

Escef, on 08 February 2015 - 03:13 AM, said:

Your lack of getting the point isn't an argument, nor is posting a copy-paste from Sarna.

What's funny is that you missed it entirely and that you think this is some form of retort.

[Ratpoison]

Mechwarrior Buddah, on 08 February 2015 - 09:51 AM, said:

IMO the devs were running against a lot of these in their elo bracket so they thought they were a bigger problem than they were. From what Ive seen the fastest way to get a knee jerk reaction from the devs in shove it right in their faces as they seemed at the time to be "balancing" the game on the things they were having issues with mainly.

For instance, collisions



Now theyll say that it was a coincidence that two weeks after that was posted collisions were removed from the game and not really talked about for the subsequent three years that followed.

My theory is that he got so pissed at being humiliated in his own game that the mechanic got ripped out of the game, but thats me.

Did you watch the video? Collisions looked absolutely ridiculous, caused huge amounts of rubberbanding, and were abusable on top of that. Your speculation is poor.

[darkchylde]

kapusta11, on 08 February 2015 - 09:56 AM, said:

At least Ghost Heat is less limiting that Sized Hardpoints, there should be no such thing like hardpoints to begin with.

Sized hard points would of controlled all those joke builds people were so afraid (4PPC/6PPC stalker/DireStar) would not have existed while still maintaining the identity and role of the mech with several options for customization. It seems the truth of the matter is that some people just want to pack on as many large weapons that are possible on smaller mechs with high mounts.

[Black Arachne]

Nori Silverrage, on 08 February 2015 - 11:15 AM, said:

Not sure if this was answered. But how would this work on something like the Jager? Two AC20s would have no limiter on them like ghost heat does. Now I suppose a Jager has to give up a lot to get two AC20s. But yeah if hardpoints are supposed to discourage boating how would it stop dual guass and ac20 stuff?

The Jager Bomb was another build that a group of players would use - tons of videos on mech units rushing the enemy with 4-12 of these units. So PGI's response was to add AC20 to the Ghost heat table - another mech that would of been controlled by limiting the size of the hardpoints. The role of the JagerMech has always been long range fire support.

JM6-S - 4 Small Ballistic Hard Points - 2 Medium Energy Hard Points

JM6-A - 2 Small Ballistic Hard Points - 2 Medium Missile Hard Points - 2 Medium Energy Hard Points

JM6-DD - 6 Small Ballistic Hard Points - 2 Medium Energy Hard Points

Firebrand - 2 Large Energy Hard Points - 2 Small Ballistic Hard Points - 4 Medium Energy Hard Points

Large = 3 - can fit a Medium and Small or 3 Small
Medium =2 - can fit 2 small
Small = 1

http://www.sarna.net..._%28Resource%29

Edited by Black Arachne, 08 February 2015 - 02:09 PM.

[CantHandletheTruth]

Black Arachne, on 08 February 2015 - 01:55 PM, said:

The Jager Bomb was another build that a group of players would use - tons of videos on mech units rushing the enemy with 4-12 of these units. So PGI's response was to add AC20 to the Ghost heat table - another mech that would of been controlled by limiting the size of the hardpoints. The role of the JagerMech has always been long range fire support.

JM6-S - 4 Small Ballistic Hard Points - 2 Medium Energy Hard Points

JM6-A - 2 Small Ballistic Hard Points - 2 Medium Missile Hard Points - 2 Medium Energy Hard Points

JM6-DD - 6 Small Ballistic Hard Points - 2 Medium Energy Hard Points

Firebrand - 2 Large Energy Hard Points - 2 Small Ballistic Hard Points - 4 Medium Energy Hard Points

SO you would make four crappy variants?