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The Adder: If It Weren't For That Meddling Cute Fox...

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#1 Deathlike

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Posted 08 February 2015 - 01:44 AM

Back when the Clan pack was announced, it was a mystery as to what variants we would have access to. The initial discovery to the initial Clan Light mechs being slow was a disappointment, but the more important issue was the actual justification for the Kitfox over the Adder.

Since the mech pack's release in mid-June 2013, all notions of the Kitfox being "inferior" were quelled.. as the accessibility of JJs AND the use of ECM through the Kitfox-C was made available... challenging the role and purpose of the Adder that vied for the same thing. The Kitfox did things better because those options were on the table. If those factors weren't on the table... it would be a different story (kinda like the existence of the Direwolf-S and Timberwolf-S... there's something about that "S"). That is the story that I'd like to tell.

I set my expectations really really low considering it got pretty much a nickname for being terrible. (Badders gonna bad amirite?) The thing is, it's not that bad, but it was never going to compare to the Kitfox when you compare the basic featureset. Sure, the Adder should be better... but when you consider the role of JJs and ECM in the current state of the game, it was "obsolete" before it got going. Does this mean it can't be salvaged? Well... we'll have to look into that.

Because of "3", it keeps things simple.

1) Omnipods - Don't you like Mr. Potatohead?
2) Field Report - It's no more or less squishier than a Cute Fox
3) The Future - Better start praying for a miracle here...


1) Omnipods - The value of a good mech is determined by what it can be carried in its torsos...

Let's get this out of the way first.... the CT Flamer is the most useless thing in this game. Not only will it accelerate your death by trying to use it (it's a suicidal weapon)... you may overheat yourself in the process. This is unproductive and frankly needs to be changed at some point. Full stop.

While the CT is a lost cause, the hardpoints on the mech are evenly distributed. This means that while you could have a shield arm for use... it doesn't do the mech very much good. So, let's get down to the basics in a quick summery. No matter how you build the mech, you will always have 4 hardpoints max (assuming you don't factor in the hardlocked 1E flamer). That's it. You will only max out of 2B however... but you can ultimately combine whatever numbers of each to have 4. That's a blessing and a curse... so let's go to the hardpoints themselves.


Left Arm:
ADR-Prime - 1E
ADR-A - 1M
ADR-B - 1B
ADR-D - 1E

Outside of saying that this mech has gotten zilch for real quirks, you'll notice that the ballistic hardpoint will always be in the arm. Unlike the Kitfox which currently has the potential to have 4 MGs, the Adder is a poor platform of choice for that... and even then you'll be limited to large ballistics... of which you can carry realistically one anyways.


Right Arm:
ADR-Prime - 1E
ADR-A - 1M
ADR-B - 1E
ADR-D - 1B

If you like the idea of flipping around the weapons in letting your enemy guess which gun goes where, be my guess. Otherwise, there's nothing to see here.


Left Torso:
ADR-Prime - +10 Torso Twist Yaw
ADR-A - 1E
ADR-B - 1E
ADR-D - 1M

It's a quirk! Although it sounds nice, it's not very useful considering at mastery, you will have a ridiculous twisting radius, just like the Kitfox. Good side torso hardpoints are hard to come by these days.


Right Torso:
ADR-Prime - 1AMS
ADR-A - 1E
ADR-B - 1E
ADR-D - 1M

If you're thinking you can do magic with symmetry, go for it. Otherwise, it's actually better to go asymmetrical... and I'll explain it later.

You find that the only other quirks that exist are remnants of the old and lame "Light mech leg structure boost" which was only 10% of the internal structure. The Adder and the Kitfox are those mechs that still have the aforementioned boost (and hasn't changed for a bit) while the Spider has its removed. Go figure on that. The mechs need more leg armor anyways when you consider how large they are compared to their IS counterparts and that their role is more of a support medium.

So, how does it play out on the field?


2) Field Report - "Ask not what the mech can do for you... ask what you can do for your mech."

The mech is ultimately no better or worse than a Kitfox under heavy fire. It's just not that durable. At least with the Kitfox, you can hide that fact with ECM. With the Adder, you need to make the most of your short stature to get in and out while minimizing hits.

The thing is it that it isn't very difficult to remove an entire side torso. It's just a bit wide in terms of scaling and that it's not to hard to hit it.

Remember what I said earlier about making that mech asymmetrical? It is most significant here.

Normally when you go symmetrical, the general benefit here is that no side is the strong side, therefore either side being taken down will not affect your overall performance. While I was informed of the existence of the WubFox in an earlier period, the Wubber was the best build I was able to field. 4 MPL was just too much fun to contain. While the Kitfox can do it, it's more gimmicky when taking advantage of ECM is generally more valuable than the alternatives and worth losing a weapon hardpoint over. For the Adder, you need all the hardpoints you can get.

When it comes to ammo based weaponry like missiles and ballistics... this becomes a problem. It's easier with ballistics given that CASE is everywhere so that ammo explosions are contained and you could stuff the ammo in the arm. On the other hand, missiles are problematic.

Symmetrical builds similar to the Maddog tend to have the problem of how ammo is consumed. The "easiest solution" due to omnipods is to simply load up energy on one side, and missiles on the other... in more of a 2E+2M style. This way, you will keep your weapons operational instead of trying to put together some Adder-A (or semi Adder-D) stock omnipod set of mediocrity.

It is worth pointing out that ALL torso hardpoints are high... particularly missiles (and the CT flamer...). if you set up the mech in more of a Nova-type of setup (all energy), you fire a lot like the Nova... assuming you notice that.

You can set up somewhat of a gimmick mech (all Streaks, all SRM, 3E+big ballistic, all energy) and they will allow the mech to be different just as well. However, I recommend 2E on one side or 2M or the other side (it doesn't matter which side really) if you want a combo platter just based on the mech's logistics. Trying to do a 1E, 3M or 3E, 1M combo build will most likely end up in some sort of disappointment.

Having found the builds I settled with, the experience was much more bearable. It made the Kitfox looks worse in terms of firepower... but that's the thing. Had the Kitfox not have access to ECM and JJs... it wouldn't be the preferred Clan Light currently (the Mist Lynx is not even in the same zone and serves a different purpose anyways). I did have good games (had some 5 kill games... some in terrible losses), but it was kinda feast or famine in the grand scheme of things due to the lack of ECM. ECM is unfortunately a stabilizing force for me (some don't need it, but then again some rely on it, so it depends on how you maximize the benefits). Not having ECM has crippled the Adder a bit, and with the role it has, it would break things more to include it (I would rather fix/adjust/change ECM first).

I guess at this point that you're wondering... can we make this better? (Hint: Not really)


3) The Future - I wouldn't hold my breath

All of which that is known is already released. While we're awaiting for more Clan Quirks.. there is a bunch of stuff that needs to be added to make the Adder "less atrocious". I guess I'll just get 7 because it's just magical right?


I) Heat Generation Reduction - Given that the mech is not one of the trudubs... this and the Kitfox needs this in order to properly keep up. Energy heat reduction is preferred, but missile heat reduction is nice too. Don't even dare think of a ballistic heat reduction.. "because Summoner-C".


II) Leg Armor Boost - Scaling has skewed with the durability of the mech. While the Kitfox has JJs, the Adder needs this a lot more due to not having them. So... this needs to be reworked a bit in its favor.


III) Torso Twist Speed Boost - Based on the engine formula, the mech torso twists at the same speed as a medium. This isn't acceptable when you are actually a 35 ton light. This and the Kitfox needs more of a generic boost to keep up with IS mediums of which it "technically" competes against.


IV) Turn Speed Boost - I don't even know why the Stormcrow needs to be in every Clan discussion, but given that it makes these slow Clan Lights obsolete is a story within itself... it has to be addressed.


V) Arm Structure Boost - Consider the 35-ton mech class as a whole. The Firestarter has the "biggest" of the IS Lights while the Clan Lights have ridiculously large arms. While the Kitfox would need it more than the Adder, the Adder can't reasonably shield itself with its arms to reduce damage... as high alphas tend to shave off the arms like it wasn't there. So... it should be apparently.


VI) Torso Structure Boosts - While this doesn't need to be for the CT, the side torsos are what drives the Adder and the Kitfox to being useless in no-time flat. It's just necessary side they aren't hard to target. Is it already time to ask for the Clan version of the Firestarter? How about the Jenner IIC? Oh well.


VII) Make the Adder-Prime LT useful - The simplest thing I can think of is to make that side torso provide some sort of ERPPC quirk (velocity, ERPPC heat reduction, etc.). I'd rather allow for the ERPPCs on the arms to get that boost, but anyone with a creative mind would move the ERPPCs to one side of the torsos for better firing location or better cooling... so right now it has no real good purpose until it is addressed.


While I'm almost done grinding out the Adder (almost done, with 6k left on each to mastery)... the next mech on the list to grind is the Masakari... but I really want to get the Cicada-3C article done ASAP. I hope I get the opportunity to get a 2nd energy hardpoint added through proper persuasion before it gets the dynamic hardpoint stuff done to it.

Nonetheless, the Adder is a fun ride, but it will always be looked down upon compared to the Kitfox for ECM and JJs. Sometimes while trying to balance stuff, it is easy to forget how one thing changes how people view the other thing. The Adder is under the shadow of the Kitfox... and without anything that allows it to stand out to the Kitfox (like superior ERPPC fire), it has no purpose. It's not meant to be this bad... but poor balance, lack of TLC, and just ignorance has left the Adder in the worst position.... unwanted.

Sorry Badder, you're not that bad. Only the balance gods screwed you up (and bad hitboxes). Even the side torso hardpoints weren't enough to save you...

Edited by Deathlike, 08 February 2015 - 01:45 AM.


#2 Lily from animove

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Posted 08 February 2015 - 01:57 AM

Nah

cutefox? not cute fugly as hell, I mean look at it, seriously do it.

Adder looks cool, since it was amde in BT.

generally the Kitfox is a true support tool mech. but when it comes to battle abilities I would rate the adder over the kitfox, even without JJ's. A few heavy weapons in the sidetrosi of the badder are a great thing because hardpointlocations matter. The Kitfox does not have really suitable sidetorsi hardpoints. Only B which don't really go for big damage.

The adder also is more tonnage and so can even cool itself better. or use more ammo when it comes with ammo dependend weapons.

try to play a 2 PPC adder with the ppc's in the sidetorsi I can regulary mke 800 damage+ with it vs. the thundergods in CW. Kitfox has lower slung arms, that can make them an easier target when havng to expose. the regular maps are bad for the adder because they are often too small or the IS lights have it too easy to catch you there by the map limitations. and the adder is one of the very few clanmechs mechs having truly high hardpoints for direct firing weapons.

#3 Nothing Whatsoever

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Posted 08 February 2015 - 01:57 AM

Prolly better builds, but I've done fine with ASRM-6s.

#4 Wintersdark

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Posted 08 February 2015 - 03:48 AM

4xSRM6 cannot be neglected. The Spladder is a serious threat, able to dish out crushing damage quickly. Played like a lightly armoured medium striker, its quite dangerous.

I've found most Adder pilots try to think of them (and play them) as lights. That's not good. Play them like striker mediums


A 48pt alpha out of a light is crazy. Pairs of Spladders are extrodinarily effective sticking with the bulk of your forces, rushing in to launch their payloads and then utilizing their allies as cover/distraction to cool.

Running a lance of 2xSRM24 adders and 2xsrm30 stormcrows is an absolute riot.

The Adder is highly underrated. Its not a monster, but its not nearly as bad as people make it out to be.


#5 Vassago Rain

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Posted 08 February 2015 - 04:25 AM

I keep forgetting the badder is actually in the game. It's about as rare as vindicators and kintaros.

#6 Alistair Winter

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Posted 08 February 2015 - 04:44 AM

Any mech is viable in this game, if you quirk it enough. Whether it's actually balanced is another story. But I will be playing my Adder as soon as they give it some CERPPC quirks.

And a 100% heat reduction for the flamer.

PS: There's a special place in hell for people who put the Adder Prime's CERPPCs in the side torsos. God is judging you.

View PostPraetor Knight, on 08 February 2015 - 01:57 AM, said:

Prolly better builds, but I've done fine with ASRM-6s.

Why CAP?

Edited by Alistair Winter, 08 February 2015 - 04:47 AM.


#7 Cyborne Elemental

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Posted 08 February 2015 - 05:05 AM

Because it helps the team.

Knockout an unsuspecting ECM mech, extended radar range, all sorts of good stuff happens when you run bap/cap.

#8 Axeface

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Posted 08 February 2015 - 05:35 AM

Thing is, you can do that 4 srm6 build on a kitfox thats got nicer hitboxes, and even jj's if you want.
Stuff

#9 Wintersdark

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Posted 08 February 2015 - 06:58 AM

View PostAxeface, on 08 February 2015 - 05:35 AM, said:

Thing is, you can do that 4 srm6 build on a kitfox thats got nicer hitboxes, and even jj's if you want.
Stuff


Those 5 tons difference between the Cute Fox and Adder really matter, though. Your linked Cute Fox has only 3 tons of ammo - that's not nearly enough when running just SRM24 without backup weapons. 4 shots eats a ton, that's 12.5 shots available and no backup weapons.

The ADR-PRIME has 6 tons of ammo, or alternatively, 10 tons of ammo w/o artemis.

3 tons ammo just isn't enough for a SRM-only build like that.

#10 Deathlike

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Posted 08 February 2015 - 07:04 AM

View PostAlistair Winter, on 08 February 2015 - 04:44 AM, said:

Why CAP?


ECM causes the spread to increase again when in the field. Removing the ECM field allows the Artemis to deal full damage (whereas keeping the field would convert ASRMs to SRMs, negating the Artemis bonuses).

If you want to go full splat uninterrupted by ECM, BAP/CAP is something to consider.

#11 Alistair Winter

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Posted 08 February 2015 - 07:38 AM

View PostDeathlike, on 08 February 2015 - 07:04 AM, said:

ECM causes the spread to increase again when in the field. Removing the ECM field allows the Artemis to deal full damage (whereas keeping the field would convert ASRMs to SRMs, negating the Artemis bonuses).
If you want to go full splat uninterrupted by ECM, BAP/CAP is something to consider.

Wow. The Jesus box works in mysterious ways.

#12 Brody319

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Posted 08 February 2015 - 09:24 AM

I find the Kit Fox tends to be an escort and general support mech. ECM and AMS to protect the team from missiles.

While the Adder is full fire support. bringing plenty of firepower to compete with even medium mechs.


Also the Adder is adorable.

#13 Deathlike

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Posted 08 February 2015 - 09:27 AM

View PostAlistair Winter, on 08 February 2015 - 07:38 AM, said:

Wow. The Jesus box works in mysterious ways.


It doesn't get mentioned enough right? :P

#14 Brody319

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Posted 08 February 2015 - 09:40 AM

View PostWintersdark, on 08 February 2015 - 06:58 AM, said:


Those 5 tons difference between the Cute Fox and Adder really matter, though. Your linked Cute Fox has only 3 tons of ammo - that's not nearly enough when running just SRM24 without backup weapons. 4 shots eats a ton, that's 12.5 shots available and no backup weapons.

The ADR-PRIME has 6 tons of ammo, or alternatively, 10 tons of ammo w/o artemis.

3 tons ammo just isn't enough for a SRM-only build like that.



I would rather swap out 2 of the SRM 6s for SRM 4s and add another ton of ammo.

#15 Ovion

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Posted 08 February 2015 - 10:07 AM

The Adder is a superior Missile boat, able to match the Catapults ability with ease.

I'll post builds and more details when I get home from work.

#16 Purger of Man

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Posted 08 February 2015 - 10:10 AM

I love that adder, just toss on 4 er mediums and 22 double heatsinks and you're good to go B)


Ps: The only thing that hurts the adder is that hardpoint locked Flamer in the head

Edited by Purger of Man, 08 February 2015 - 10:11 AM.


#17 Wintersdark

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Posted 08 February 2015 - 10:19 AM

View PostBrody319, on 08 February 2015 - 09:40 AM, said:



I would rather swap out 2 of the SRM 6s for SRM 4s and add another ton of ammo.
Certainly a valid option. Also going 4xSRM4 without Artemis (tighter spread with 4's), saving 6 tons over my above linked build. Add more ammo and dhs to suit, vastly increase endurance and heat efficiency at the cost of face punching power.

A 32 pt front loaded alpha is still quite respectable for a light - mediums with that via 3xASRM6 are considered decent after all. The adder loses a small amount of armour, but gains decent speed, sturdiness due to Clan XL and the benefits of a comparatively tiny frame.

Seriously, the Adder isn't a bad mech. Its not a great mech either, of course. It's just a highly tonnage efficient medium. I'm quite fond of these in CW, where they can zip up and bust up generators fast while preserving deck tonnage.

Just don't try to play it like a Firestarter or Jenner.

You can also make a highly effective LRM boat(in so far as LRM boats can be effective, depending on your play environment), easily comparable to medium and even some Heavy lrm boats.


#18 LT. HARDCASE

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Posted 08 February 2015 - 10:24 AM

View PostDeathlike, on 08 February 2015 - 07:04 AM, said:


ECM causes the spread to increase again when in the field. Removing the ECM field allows the Artemis to deal full damage (whereas keeping the field would convert ASRMs to SRMs, negating the Artemis bonuses).

If you want to go full splat uninterrupted by ECM, BAP/CAP is something to consider.

Wait what? This is for real? ECM negates SRM+A?

Documentation?

Edited by Kevjack, 08 February 2015 - 10:25 AM.


#19 Wintersdark

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Posted 08 February 2015 - 10:25 AM

View PostPurger of Man, on 08 February 2015 - 10:10 AM, said:

I love that adder, just toss on 4 er mediums and 22 double heatsinks and you're good to go B)


Ps: The only thing that hurts the adder is that hardpoint locked Flamer in the head


As to the flamer, its a disadvantage but essentially is just -1t pod space; you just don't use it an its not a big deal.

4 cERML's, and I'd go 21dhs+TCMk1, range and cooldown mods. Only a 20pt alpha, but one with substantial reach and quite high crit rate (for a smidgen more structural damage mostly)

I like missile adders more, though... Mostly I'm just sick of laser vomit.

View PostKevjack, on 08 February 2015 - 10:24 AM, said:

Wait what? This is for real? ECM negates SRM+A?
ecm negates Artemis bonuses, yes.

#20 Deathlike

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Posted 08 February 2015 - 10:37 AM

View PostWintersdark, on 08 February 2015 - 10:25 AM, said:

As to the flamer, its a disadvantage but essentially is just -1t pod space; you just don't use it an its not a big deal.

4 cERML's, and I'd go 21dhs+TCMk1, range and cooldown mods. Only a 20pt alpha, but one with substantial reach and quite high crit rate (for a smidgen more structural damage mostly)

I like missile adders more, though... Mostly I'm just sick of laser vomit.

ecm negates Artemis bonuses, yes.


Wubber is more practical. A little less than half a second facetime is better than excessive amounts of DHS for just 4 ermeds (you need like 18 DHS at that point).


View PostKevjack, on 08 February 2015 - 10:24 AM, said:

Wait what? This is for real? ECM negates SRM+A?

Documentation?


There's isn't exact documentation.

AFAIK, oftentimes when I've used ASRMs on something like a D-DC w/o BAP, I feel like the spread is "not there" whereas when the mech is countered, it works a bit better.

I can't tell if my mech being in the ECM jamming field is causing that or that the ASRMs getting into said field is causing that.

I'm sure someone can go test it for science.


The Wubber (it's not innovative at all)::
ADR-PRIME

Edited by Deathlike, 08 February 2015 - 10:40 AM.






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