81 replies to this topic

[Felicitatem Parco]

I think it's about time we stop blaming Mechs and game balance on the perceived disparity between Clans' and the Inner Sphere's performance in Community Warfare.

Let's face it - Battletech is rife with the concept that Clanners are superior to InnerSphere fighters. Battletech fans who are are more likely to form bonds and join guilds are those who are more likely to join the Clans. Couple that with the high Cash-Barrier of Clan Mechs in this game, and you get a situation where those who think they are the best, who have been playing the game for the longest, and the most willingness to drop cash on the game will be forming organized groups under Clan banners.

______________________________________________

Let's take BattleTech out of the equation for a second:

Let's pretend that this is an entirely new IP, and you've never heard of MechWarrior before. You are an excellent Armorer Core/Tribes player, and you want to start playing this game and are willing to spend a little money on it up-front ($20 or so). You always play your PvP games in Guilds, and you play to win. You noticed that Clan Mechs and Inner Sphere Mechs cost the same, and have similar properties (i.e. their weapon sets have similarities and differences, but are fairly equal over-all).

Q. Would you jump to the "Clan" faction over the "Inner Sphere" faction?
A. Not really - there's no major reason to support one over the other.
______________________________________________

Let's put BT back into the equation, now. Here are 2 scenarios:

1. Let's pretend you're a BattleTech fan who's been playing MechWarrior for 15+ years. You are an excellent MechWarrior player, and you have been playing this game for years already with a massive accumulation of C-Bills and XP. You always play your PvP games in Guilds, and you play to win. You know that Clan Mechs are historically better than Inner Sphere Mechs, and Clanners are regarded as better players. You are willing to drop massive cash on this game because you love MechWariror.

2. Let's pretend you are a new player who has never heard of BattleTech before. You're not in a Guild, and you don't play-to-win... you play to have fun. You have no idea what a Clan is, but you do see that their equipment is very expensive and only attainable after either playing for a long time or dropping lots of cash up-front. You're willing to spend a little on this game to see how it pans out,but you're not going to spend any more than $20 until you're hooked.

________________________________________________


So... anyone else think this might explain why the Clans appear to have more Organized Groups in Community Warfare, and the Inner Sphere forces are filled with Pick-Up Gamers?

It's going to be this way until there is no Resource Barrier between Clans and the Inner Sphere, and until BattleTech fans completely drop the notion that Clan Tech is supposed to be better than IS Tech.

Edited by Prosperity Park, 08 February 2015 - 12:25 PM.

[BourbonFaucet]

There's some truth to this thread, however:

I would say it's mostly due to mis-information though. The clan 'mechs cost more upfront, but you aren't paying out the nose for upgrades like you have to for IS 'mechs. Clan 'mechs come with an XL engine, and usually endo or FF by default. You have to pay for those as an IS player, and it gets expensive fast. In fact, I have to build in extra costs for DHS and endo when thinking about getting a new machine.

[AEgg]

Your post would make sense, except that clan mechs as a whole are not more expensive.

Clan lights are simply cheaper than IS lights. Often significantly, because you don't need to buy a huge 300XL to go with every mech.

Every IS mech costs 1.5 million more for DHS, another 700k or so more for Endo, and then at least another two million above that for an engine. That makes the difference in cost between IS and clan mechs much, much lower, to the point of IS mechs costing more for anything that uses an XL. Anything without an XL is likely to be cheaper on the IS side.

[Gyrok]

Prosperity Park, on 08 February 2015 - 12:20 PM, said:

I think it's about time we stop blaming Mechs and game balance on the perceived disparity between Clans' and the Inner Sphere's performance in Community Warfare.

Let's face it - Battletech is rife with the concept that Clanners are superior to InnerSphere fighters. Battletech fans who are are more likely to form bonds and join guilds are those who are more likely to join the Clans. Couple that with the high Cash-Barrier of Clan Mechs in this game, and you get a situation where those who think they are the best, who have been playing the game for the longest, and the most willingness to drop cash on the game will be forming organized groups under Clan banners.

______________________________________________

Let's take BattleTech out of the equation for a second:

Let's pretend that this is an entirely new IP, and you've never heard of MechWarrior before. You are an excellent Armorer Core/Tribes player, and you want to start playing this game and are willing to spend a little money on it up-front ($20 or so). You always play your PvP games in Guilds, and you play to win. You noticed that Clan Mechs and Inner Sphere Mechs cost the same, and have similar properties (i.e. their weapon sets have similarities and differences, but are fairly equal over-all).

Q. Would you jump to the "Clan" faction over the "Inner Sphere" faction?
A. Not really - there's no major reason to support one over the other.
______________________________________________

Let's put BT back into the equation, now. Here are 2 scenarios:

1. Let's pretend you're a BattleTech fan who's been playing MechWarrior for 15+ years. You are an excellent MechWarrior player, and you have been playing this game for years already with a massive accumulation of C-Bills and XP. You always play your PvP games in Guilds, and you play to win. You know that Clan Mechs are historically better than Inner Sphere Mechs, and Clanners are regarded as better players. You are willing to drop massive cash on this game because you love MechWariror.

2. Let's pretend you are a new player who has never heard of BattleTech before. You're not in a Guild, and you don't play-to-win... you play to have fun. You have no idea what a Clan is, but you do see that their equipment is very expensive and only attainable after either playing for a long time or dropping lots of cash up-front. You're willing to spend a little on this game to see how it pans out,but you're not going to spend any more than $20 until you're hooked.

________________________________________________


So... anyone else think this might explain why the Clans appear to have more Organized Groups in Community Warfare, and the Inner Sphere forces are filled with Pick-Up Gamers?

It's going to be this way until there is no Resource Barrier between Clans and the Inner Sphere, and until BattleTech fans completely drop the notion that Clan Tech is supposed to be better than IS Tech.

2 points:

1.) There are die hard IS guys among BattleTech purists.

2.) As noted above, the initial cost seems high, but by the time you kit out IS mechs, it ends up being the same cost. Yes, you can buy IS mechs faster, but you cannot really *play* IS mechs any faster, unless you are talking about grinding out cbills and XP to basic mechs one at a time.

The true issue I see, to be totally honest, is that new players are either going to have to play suboptimal mechs with suboptimal configurations until they grind enough to make cbills, and spend a few bucks on mechbays. Option 2 for new players is for them to pay real money into the game, buy a mech package, get some premium time, mechs and mech bays, and master them out, to be competitive.

Obviously option 2 is the much faster option. A new Clan player that wants to buy 3 TWs for cbills has to save up 51 mil cbills before buying weapons, modules, equipment, etc.

This has been a tough curve from what CWDG has observed recently. We have some players who shill out as much as a single a la carte chassis pack to catch up, but many new recruits still drop with at least 1 trial mech in their dropdeck in CW at this point. You have a few who are BT purists and just buy wave 1 or wave 2 and get started, though that tends to be the exception as opposed to being the rule.

[Vassago Rain]

No, the issue is that PGI launched clans as P2W mega OP early access, and kept them hidden behind a paywall for 6 months.

As they released for c-bills, they were target nerfed to the ground, but they're still significantly stronger than IS. I don't understand how people can claim otherwise. IS medium laser is one ton, one crit, clan medium laser is the same, but has large laser damage and range. Clan gauss rifle is lighter and smaller. Clan XLs don't die to side torso destruction. Clan lasers, period, have a HUGE range advantage. Their double heatsinks use less space. BAP and ECM are smaller (AMS used to have twice the ammo of IS AMS). FF armor and endo combined take up the same space as ONE of the IS equivalent upgrades.

Half tonnage, half crit missiles. All missiles.

This really isn't up for debate, guys. Until orions become equivalent to madcats, that's not gonna change. You look very foolish when you claim there's some kind of parity. The good players understand that clans are just better, so they obviously roll clans when winning becomes important. Why wouldn't they? That's right - they wouldn't. PGI has actually had to introduce target BUFFS (quirks) to IS mechs to get people to play them. We're talking IS got 50% rate of fire increases on AC5s, and that was the only way to make people play the old clunkers.

New players know this, and they get turned off by it. MWO has a terrible rep for its grab deal balancing, balance by feel, 'early access' mech paks, poor PR, poor community/dev interactions, CCP styled decision making, 500 dollar gold mechs, years of neglect on graphics, tech, map design...and the huge grind.

There's this Pink Floyd sized wall of problems PGI must overcome if they want MWO to get anywhere. Right now, it's a stagnant mess. It would help out so much if the community rallied between common sense approaches. For instance, rather than pretend CW is great and for the most elite, we all admit it's not fun, and flawed by design, since there's absolutely no point for the attackers to ever engage the defenders. Just rush the OGs and the big gun. You'll win and make more money that way.

At the rate we're going, this isn't gonna survive steam. It'll be a repeat of hawken, which would be an immense waste of a game we've all spent years playing, and for what purpose? Just make the game good. Everybody wins if MWO is good, accessible, and open to players both new and old.

That's all I have to say on this subject.

[dervishx5]

Battletech sucks. Mechassault forever.

[LaneHacker]

I honestly have not read this full thread, but the true reason is number of mechs on the field.
Even in the lore or other versions of the game, say the card game. IS decks can throw out large number of trash cans, compared to the few but powerful clan mechs. More on the lore, IS more often than non has a 1 man advantage in squads. I can understand why the devs kept it 12 on 12 but honestly it should be 12 on 9. With this all in mind they need to add other IS advantages. Perhaps a timed air raid or arty strikes?

[PanzerSmurf]

They OP because their TW and Crow's have bug hit detection, add the fact the average clan player is from the Eastern part of the world and has a good 300+ ping, and tada, you have Crows and TW's that can take hits on a cherry red CT's and survive to blast you with a full alpha.

Too bad the only IS mech with similar issues is the firestarter, although I must say because units on the clan side abuse the above fact, I'm tempted to form all firestarter teams and tell people to start some DL's too inflate ping so we can do the same.

Edited by PanzerSmurf, 09 February 2015 - 05:29 AM.

[Impossible Wasabi]

The Space Pope thinks that most good players (or really all players) simply will gravitate towards whatever is easiest to do well with.

Is there a psychological component?

Sure, but there is a reason good players do very well in many clan mechs and it isn't primarily because they "think" it is better.

Edited by The True Space Pope, 09 February 2015 - 06:02 AM.

[Vassago Rain]

Lily from animove, on 09 February 2015 - 04:26 AM, said:

Is medium laser is more heat efficient

Haha, what? For 2 more heat, I get 2 more damage, delivered at 270 meters longer range, and backed by heatsinks that take up 33% less space, with weight-saving gear that guarantees I can fit 20+ dubs on everything, and backed up by an XL engine that magically saves as much weight as the IS equivalent, but uses two less crits, and doesn't explode if you break a side.

The rest of your post reads like the typical clan babby posturing.

I'm sorry, but your inability to grasp the full extent of clantech supremacy qualifies you as the child here. That 500 dollar gold tag further adds to the clan stereotype that's been rampant since their introduction a billion years ago.

[Finkledbody]

Vassago Rain, on 08 February 2015 - 10:46 PM, said:

No, the issue is that PGI launched clans as P2W mega OP early access, and kept them hidden behind a paywall for 6 months.

As they released for c-bills, they were target nerfed to the ground, but they're still significantly stronger than IS. I don't understand how people can claim otherwise. IS medium laser is one ton, one crit, clan medium laser is the same, but has large laser damage and range. Clan gauss rifle is lighter and smaller. Clan XLs don't die to side torso destruction. Clan lasers, period, have a HUGE range advantage. Their double heatsinks use less space. BAP and ECM are smaller (AMS used to have twice the ammo of IS AMS). FF armor and endo combined take up the same space as ONE of the IS equivalent upgrades.

Half tonnage, half crit missiles. All missiles.

This really isn't up for debate, guys. Until orions become equivalent to madcats, that's not gonna change. You look very foolish when you claim there's some kind of parity. The good players understand that clans are just better, so they obviously roll clans when winning becomes important. Why wouldn't they? That's right - they wouldn't. PGI has actually had to introduce target BUFFS (quirks) to IS mechs to get people to play them. We're talking IS got 50% rate of fire increases on AC5s, and that was the only way to make people play the old clunkers.

New players know this, and they get turned off by it. MWO has a terrible rep for its grab deal balancing, balance by feel, 'early access' mech paks, poor PR, poor community/dev interactions, CCP styled decision making, 500 dollar gold mechs, years of neglect on graphics, tech, map design...and the huge grind.

There's this Pink Floyd sized wall of problems PGI must overcome if they want MWO to get anywhere. Right now, it's a stagnant mess. It would help out so much if the community rallied between common sense approaches. For instance, rather than pretend CW is great and for the most elite, we all admit it's not fun, and flawed by design, since there's absolutely no point for the attackers to ever engage the defenders. Just rush the OGs and the big gun. You'll win and make more money that way.

At the rate we're going, this isn't gonna survive steam. It'll be a repeat of hawken, which would be an immense waste of a game we've all spent years playing, and for what purpose? Just make the game good. Everybody wins if MWO is good, accessible, and open to players both new and old.

That's all I have to say on this subject.

This post illustrates the truth about IS vs Clan mechs. Very well written post. Thank you.

Lily from animove, on 09 February 2015 - 04:26 AM, said:

you don't udnertsand because you are just bad and wrong.

Is medium laser is more heat efficient, heta is a limited ressource.

You are a stupid little kid thinking in clan/is patterns, clans are not OP, its the TBR and SCR, give the IS the exact same mech by shape and gemometry and hardpoints. And together with the cooler running IS lasrs, you will really experience what Op means. You have nothing beter to do than blaming PGI for everything thats wrong while you don't even try to understand the real mechanics. After all this time you sill claim those nonsense facts for the "clanners" becaue you are just not able to lern and improve yourself. Buy a console and paly those awesome graphics super epic linear no brain games please.

The real issue is, IS gamers never tried to actually counter clanners correctly, they tried to play the old IS vs IS style and failed. Remember the times when poptarting was such a thing and sniperbattles. yes tbr and scr are kinda OP emchs, but not because they are clan, its because of the way they are. Imagine you would have to face an IS AC 20 SCR shaped and speed mech. WOAH i promise you, you would cry rivers about it.

This post was poorly thought out, rude, with no real facts to back up your statements. From the observer, you sound like a child.

[Artgathan]

Interesting points from the OP. Economic concerns certainly play a role.

Another vastly understated point is the role of large groups in organized play, and the mechanics of the Clan border. Consider: large groups are typically those that will be launching attacks on planets - they are the initiators. This causes a 'call to arms' to be issued across the whole of the IS playerbase which results in PUGs from every IS faction in the game being summoned to defend a planet against an organized Clan team. I'm not trying to suggest there should be some kind of queue system to prevent this - I'm simply saying that the Call to Arms function sort of acts as a bell that summons a flock of sheep to a pack of wolves.

[Jeremiah Battleborn]

If you think that everything is fair and balanced, try finding a thread about IS being too OP. There is one that tries to be, and it falls apart quickly to reveal that clan mechs still prevail.

I'm okay with fast clanners that can do a lot of damage as compared to IS, but for balance issues that should mean they also have less armor (or greater legability) or massive heat gen. Instead we see lag-shields on the fastest Timberwolves, Stormcrows, and Mad Dogs (don't even get me started on the mist lynx). Greater speed should mean lesser armor, it is a golden rule of multiplayer games, but it doesn't exist here.

A clan team can steamroll through an IS defense with little damage or death, kill Omega and still have time to make a dent on IS lives before the initial wave is repelled.

So far as equipment goes, everyone else in this thread has echoed my thoughts on the matter. A lot more Clan Mechs can field ECMs. In IS there is no heavy ECM mech, and there doesn't appear to be one coming out for a long time.

With all these complaints, there are still a few good IS mechs. Thunderbolts and Firestarters, for example, tend to fair better so long as they spam ERPPC and are covered by a Raven 3L or Cicada 3M.

At this point, the incentive to play as IS is dangerously low. Even without organized Clan-Clans, there is a bandwagon for Clans right now that a lot of new players are sure to join. Forget expenses, that in and of itself is indicative of balance issues.

[bobF]

Are all of you loyalists in CW? How many of you spent campaigns on BOTH sides? Why do you think the coming 2nd quirk pass, for IS, will likely dial back some of the current quirks? To make Clans "more op?"

Just as IS always sees the same mechs, Clans also see all the same mechs. Quirks have in fact balanced out disparity, so much so, that some need to get nerfed. You can cry and whine about weight, damage, etc on a per weapon or per component basis, but you're just being disingenuous and shedding the same tears every nub in every PvP game that needs to l2p does.

Rapid fire erppc works great on every CW map, in just about every encounter. Rapid fire ac/20's, rapid fire ac/5's, rapid fire pulse mediums, etc, and ridiculous heat reduction for almost all of it. Just because you're running a stalker with an XL doesn't make Clans op, it makes you bad for not building around quirks.

During my time with Marik, I experienced first hand how truly "OP" clans are: not at all. When I can stand back at 1200m and put a 30 point alpha wherever I want and not even care about heat, laservomit timber wolves cease to be a serious threat. Quirks DID IN FACT balance the game a great deal between Clans and IS.

People will still argue all the same things, but sadly gloss over the most salient fact: that once certain IS mechs are built out properly with their relevant quirks, they are more than a match for any Clan pilot. It's the end result that matters most, not a per-component comparison.

Edited by bobF, 14 February 2015 - 12:26 PM.

[clanwolf3050]

When looking at the Mechs I see:
1) Clan mechs are for the most part faster, not counting on lights or Dire Wolfs, and Meduims are kind of on equal footing. It just depends on what you need to do to the IS meduim mech for combat effectiveness.
2) Clan mechs and IS mechs have same Armor, some exceptions do to quirks (at most 20 pts to only 1 location)
3) Clans have longer ranges, few exceptions: ERPPC, Gauss Rifle, LB10X, and LRMs.
4) Clan mechs are not as Fragile as IS mechs, XLs only taking 2 side crits as apposed to 3.
5) IS can do sustained DPS better, aka they don't run as hot.
6) Clan mechs have higher alphas

Now I know players and the map are a part of the mix too, but Clan Mechs are better then IS. As they should be. I'm ok with the Tech difference. Is it "OP" I don't think so, I think PGI has tried to get Clan and IS more on equal footing through Clan Nerfs and IS Quirks. Now the Thunderbolt 9S was a little over the top with a 50% heat gen bonus to ERPPCs. Yet in most cases the Quirks didn't even the playing field enough.

I try to use the Quirks as much as possible, and in non-CW drops its enough. Yet I see matches where a team of, what looks to be, Clan PUGs vs IS PUGs and the Clan side stomps IS all the time. CW matches are not Balanced. When playing IS in CW aganst Clans you have set the difficulty to "Very Hard". While playing Clans in CW aganst IS the difficulty is set to "Hard".

I think TT had it easy, as you could use a piont system. Each side taking a serten number of pionts for thier forces. While the Clans had better mechs IS had numbers. This will not work for MWO. Can a "balance" be reached... I don't know. Die Hard Battletech fans want Clan mechs to be powerful, and the commuity needs "balance". I do know that the cruent state of things isn't close enough yet.

[bobF]

Quirk Pass 2 will see a number of nerfs to certain chassis. That's not because Clantech > IStech.

The tools are in place to make equally competitive builds to Clans. I know because I play with a bunch of guys these days who have serious comp team roots way back at the start of this game, and have educated me recently on competitive, efficient IS builds. They are as easily viable as any of my Clan chassis.

That players choose to ignore these advantages and instead run some of the most wonky builds imaginable is not the fault of PGI. You may think that LRM raven is good idea, but it really isn't.

[clanwolf3050]

I think we see eye to eye on a lot of things. Yet, I still don't believe many IS mechs are on par with Clan Mechs.

Also, I don't think Pass 2 is because of "Clantech > IStech" I do think its about trying to make them more balanced. Giving some mechs a better leg up or bringing down ones out of control.

One of the biggest problems with balance is people. What looks good to some, may not look good to others. Things change and some people don't want to. Hell, I'm still amazed to see a Hunchback 4P fire medium Lasers at a Clan mech at 800 meters out because the Clan mech shot him with ER medium lasers.

The normal public drops are not helpful for players who play IS mechs to fight against Clan mechs. These players must play CW and learn it the hard way. Clan players can, for the most part, do the same thing they always do, and do fine. I think something else needs to change. Something that will help educate players better.

Yes LRM Raven is bad, funny, but bad. In fact I see LRMS against Clans in CW as bad in general. All the ECM Hellbringers.

[Naduk]

Prosperity Park, on 08 February 2015 - 12:20 PM, said:

I think it's about time we stop blaming Mechs and game balance on the perceived disparity between Clans' and the Inner Sphere's performance in Community Warfare.

Let's face it - Battletech is rife with the concept that Clanners are superior to InnerSphere fighters. Battletech fans who are are more likely to form bonds and join guilds are those who are more likely to join the Clans. Couple that with the high Cash-Barrier of Clan Mechs in this game, and you get a situation where those who think they are the best, who have been playing the game for the longest, and the most willingness to drop cash on the game will be forming organized groups under Clan banners.

______________________________________________

Let's take BattleTech out of the equation for a second:

Let's pretend that this is an entirely new IP, and you've never heard of MechWarrior before. You are an excellent Armorer Core/Tribes player, and you want to start playing this game and are willing to spend a little money on it up-front ($20 or so). You always play your PvP games in Guilds, and you play to win. You noticed that Clan Mechs and Inner Sphere Mechs cost the same, and have similar properties (i.e. their weapon sets have similarities and differences, but are fairly equal over-all).

Q. Would you jump to the "Clan" faction over the "Inner Sphere" faction?
A. Not really - there's no major reason to support one over the other.
______________________________________________

Let's put BT back into the equation, now. Here are 2 scenarios:

1. Let's pretend you're a BattleTech fan who's been playing MechWarrior for 15+ years. You are an excellent MechWarrior player, and you have been playing this game for years already with a massive accumulation of C-Bills and XP. You always play your PvP games in Guilds, and you play to win. You know that Clan Mechs are historically better than Inner Sphere Mechs, and Clanners are regarded as better players. You are willing to drop massive cash on this game because you love MechWariror.

2. Let's pretend you are a new player who has never heard of BattleTech before. You're not in a Guild, and you don't play-to-win... you play to have fun. You have no idea what a Clan is, but you do see that their equipment is very expensive and only attainable after either playing for a long time or dropping lots of cash up-front. You're willing to spend a little on this game to see how it pans out,but you're not going to spend any more than $20 until you're hooked.

________________________________________________


So... anyone else think this might explain why the Clans appear to have more Organized Groups in Community Warfare, and the Inner Sphere forces are filled with Pick-Up Gamers?

It's going to be this way until there is no Resource Barrier between Clans and the Inner Sphere, and until BattleTech fans completely drop the notion that Clan Tech is supposed to be better than IS Tech.

lets pretend that the Clan LRMs do not weigh HALF as much as IS LRM's
lets pretend that Clan Lasers do not have more damage, more range, and weigh less
lets pretend that Clan FF and Endo do not use half as many crit slots as well as provide a better % effect
lets pretend that Clan XL engines are a full 3 engine crits in each side torso and make your mech as strong as paper
lets pretend that Clan double heat sinks are smaller and better than IS versions

yes lets pretend there is no disparity between IS and Clan tech

anyone with any sort of experience at PvP will know that having just one of these advantages makes your team better and yet clans have every single one of them
not only are they better but they have been nerfed 3 times now and are still vastly superior
if clans were left in the state they were launched in there would be no IS teams left on the map at all

even if they cost the same, it would still not be even and IS would get screwed again

[IceFire]

IS players need to do only one thing.
Learn how to play to the strength of IS mechs and abuse the weakness of Clan mechs.

I'm talking mostly about general matches, but in CW too. Clans overheat, they cant turn for **** or aim arms to save a life, hell most struggle to hit a UAV. IS need to flank and not ball from one side.

And if the game goes the way of the lore, then who gives a flying **** because IS and Clan tech will be on all the mechs and everything will be Omni. But I don't see that happening ever.

[Vassago Rain]

IceFire, on 15 February 2015 - 04:41 AM, said:

IS players need to do only one thing.
Learn how to play to the strength of IS mechs and abuse the weakness of Clan mechs.

I'm talking mostly about general matches, but in CW too. Clans overheat, they cant turn for **** or aim arms to save a life, hell most struggle to hit a UAV. IS need to flank and not ball from one side.

And if the game goes the way of the lore, then who gives a flying **** because IS and Clan tech will be on all the mechs and everything will be Omni. But I don't see that happening ever.

I covered this in my initial post.

The only way to 'play to IS strengths' is to exercise your free will, and simply bring clan robots instead of IS robots.