81 replies to this topic

[Lily from animove]

Count Zero 74, on 19 February 2015 - 08:20 AM, said:

Any Test Tube Baby that want's to set foot on Terra has to get past the Donegal Guards !!!
We're here and we're waiting for you so hop in your Über-Monster-Killer Mechs and bring it on.

The current map would say there is no steiner terrain at the way to terra xD.
And you spoilt little rich kids in overprized Robos will not save Terra anyways.

[Count Zero 74]

12th Donegal Guards on their sightseeing tour across the Inner Sphere.

Look !!!! We found a Clanner !!!



Wait, there's another one !!!!

[Necromantion]

I look forward to when CGB has a steiner attack lane again, I mean you guys have been eaten into by CJF even when they didnt have the numbers they now do so im not sure where all this "hoorah steiner" is coming from other than just the fact that they are your favorite faction *Shrug*

[Count Zero 74]

Was just making the point that there are people out here who don't pick a faction because it has the "best" mechs or pays the most. And 'bout that "hoorah steiner" thingy. Sry, but probably had to much of this:



Oh, and btw you have a Steiner Attack lane if I'm reading the map right.

Sry it's me again, sitting in the CW queue right this moment (5:29 PM UTC) but no clanner showed up so far.

Edited by Count Zero 74, 19 February 2015 - 09:30 AM.

[Necromantion]

Well that is fantastic news, hopefully we will have one tonight when i get home from work too!

[Count Zero 74]

12th DG will be dropping with the full Regiment today starting 7PM UTC

Sry, have to go we found some Jade Falcons.

Edited by Count Zero 74, 19 February 2015 - 09:35 AM.

[BaconCouch]

Honestly, having played on both sides (Davion/Marik) / (Clan Wolf) I can say that I only ever found one thing to be OP in CW, and it was a little less reliant on the mech, and more about the weapon/paired with quirks.

The IS ERPPC. Is the most broken weapon in this game. Paired with the right quirks, the heat is very easily managable, and delivers near-instant damage at long range, on target. The old Tbolt spam was dominating the meta against clans, and against other IS teams. If you didn't have 6-8 of them in a wave, you were doing it wrong.

If anything, that weapon could use a tweak. Otherwise, I'm pretty happy with the current Clan/IS balance in game.

[sdsnowbum]

Necromantion, on 18 February 2015 - 11:52 AM, said:

...
the factions that have made the most gains as far as planets controlled by tag are IS loyalists with Kurita at the top.

To be fair when IS factions take planets it is usually from other IS factions.

No IS faction has made appreciable, sustained gains against any Clan faction.

The Clans have done nothing but grow, against any IS faction they have the ability to attack. While on the IS side some of the smaller IS factions have grown at the expense of the larger.

[Lily from animove]

sdsnowbum, on 19 February 2015 - 09:59 AM, said:

To be fair when IS factions take planets it is usually from other IS factions.

No IS faction has made appreciable, sustained gains against any Clan faction.

The Clans have done nothing but grow, against any IS faction they have the ability to attack. While on the IS side some of the smaller IS factions have grown at the expense of the larger.

but this is bexcause often IS is only defending and hardly attacking, and if you defend you do not get planets.You just do not lose one in case you are ALWAYS succesfull.

[sdsnowbum]

Lily from animove, on 19 February 2015 - 10:04 AM, said:

but this is bexcause often IS is only defending and hardly attacking, and if you defend you do not get planets.You just do not lose one in case you are ALWAYS succesfull.

That is actually a very good point. And the more planets you have the more often you have to defend.

Maybe in general the smaller factions have an easier time because they ARE smaller. An all the Clan factions started out smallest so that's why they've had so much success.

If so then balance is achieved even it is more of the 'underdog will always succeed because they have nowhere to go but up'.

Brilliant. Kinda.

[LiquidLlama]

MuzMuzMuz, on 19 February 2015 - 05:31 AM, said:

What the enthusiasts and lore purists wanted to see was OP clan mechs and 10 v 12 binary vs company battles. Instead we have 12 v 12 and contradictory balance targets for CW and regular play. Anything quirked to compete with the best in class for skirmish/conquest/assault matches should be OP with regard to tonnage efficiency in CW. ELO matchmaking can hide that to an extent with consistant play of inferior mechs eventually yielding weaker opponents but in CW it's telling.

I'm pretty much a complete noob to MWO - but not BattleTech - and after reading this (entire) thread, that's the answer PGI needs to seek: The Clans never went into battle on even terms numbers-wise. Quirks, nerfs, or buffs, they're all over-complicating the issue; it's just as simple as sticking to the Clans' unit structures.

Edited by LiquidLlama, 19 February 2015 - 11:16 AM.

[Necromantion]

LiquidLlama, on 19 February 2015 - 11:15 AM, said:

I'm pretty much a complete noob to MWO - but not BattleTech - and after reading this (entire) thread, that's the answer PGI needs to seek: The Clans never went into battle on even terms numbers-wise. Quirks, nerfs, or buffs, they're all over-complicating the issue; it's just as simple as sticking to the Clans' unit structures.

Problem is the PVP aspect of this game. Why should clan units be restricted to smaller units than IS when they may have just as many players? What about mercs swapping to Clan from IS, now portions of the unit cant play or has to make other groups.

Also this would facilitate Clan groups to attack more slots on a planet effectively with less people, this adding further imbalance with the current attack/defend mode and planet ownership structure.

So to implement what you are suggesting the whole current CW would have to be tossed out the window and reworked from the ground up.

May I direct you to my thread regarding comments like this?

http://mwomercs.com/...-focused-folks/


Overcomplicating? Kinda, but necessary in light of many aspects of a balanced FPS experience.

Back to the drawing board with you.

Edited by Necromantion, 19 February 2015 - 11:21 AM.

[LiquidLlama]

Necromantion, on 19 February 2015 - 11:20 AM, said:

Problem is the PVP aspect of this game. Why should clan units be restricted to smaller units than IS when they may have just as many players? What about mercs swapping to Clan from IS, now portions of the unit cant play or has to make other groups.

Well, every five Clan units has two players removed, which would form an entirely new unit, so those players would still get to play -- and in an entirely different scenario. Win-win!

As far as side-swapping Mercs, well, that wouldn't make much of a difference either way, right?

Quote

Also this would facilitate Clan groups to attack more slots on a planet effectively with less people, this adding further imbalance with the current attack/defend mode and planet ownership structure.

See, I'm not familiar with the details of the current attack/defend mode or planet ownership structure, so I'll have to mostly concede this point -- but I will go back to the extra unit created above as to not really having "less people."

Quote

So to implement what you are suggesting the whole current CW would have to be tossed out the window and reworked from the ground up.

I don't know about all that, but again, I'm not familiar with the inner-workings of the system. Perhaps a Dev could chime in with a remark on feasibility?

Quote

May I direct you to my thread regarding comments like this?

http://mwomercs.com/...-focused-folks/


Overcomplicating? Kinda, but necessary in light of many aspects of a balanced FPS experience.

Back to the drawing board with you.

I'm not trying to "Lore Nerd" here, but "balance" is the entire argument; with Clans having superior tech (as it is and should be; whiners and apologists be damned), the balance has to come from somewhere. Nerfing, buffing, and otherwise artificially fluffing weapons, 'Mechs, and other mechanics is a slippery slope that almost always leads to a bad, bad place - a place in which nobody is ever happy.

Too bad I'm not very good at drawing.

Edited by LiquidLlama, 19 February 2015 - 11:41 AM.

[Necromantion]

LiquidLlama, on 19 February 2015 - 11:41 AM, said:

Well, every five Clan units has two players removed, which would form an entirely new unit, so those players would still get to play -- and in an entirely different scenario. Win-win!

I understand the implications on clan lances however most "units" (guilds,clans, player groups which is what i was referring to by unit) does not have 4 12 mans that they can field at once.

Units in MWO are the player groups banded together under one tag, sorry for the confusion around semantics. If you look at my comment in light of that you may understand what I meant

LiquidLlama, on 19 February 2015 - 11:41 AM, said:

As far as side-swapping Mercs, well, that wouldn't make much of a difference either way, right?

Yes because say a merc unit has 24 players on consistently or whatnot, then when they swap to Clan from IS 4 have to sit to play with premade groups in their own Unit or are forced to now pug drop

LiquidLlama, on 19 February 2015 - 11:41 AM, said:

See, I'm not familiar with the details of the current attack/defend mode or planet ownership structure, so I'll have to mostly concede this point -- but I will go back to the extra unit created above as to not really having "less people."

Sorry I know you said you were new but I didnt think you were THAT new to where you didnt know how things currently work

LiquidLlama, on 19 February 2015 - 11:41 AM, said:

I don't know about all that, but again, I'm not familiar with the inner-workings of the system. Perhaps a Dev could chime in with a remark on feasibility?

Sadly dev comments are sparse

LiquidLlama, on 19 February 2015 - 11:41 AM, said:

I'm not trying to "Lore Nerd" here, but "balance" is the entire argument; with Clans having superior tech (as it is and should be; whiners and apologists be damned), the balance has to come from somewhere. Nerfing, buffing, and otherwise artificially fluffing weapons, 'Mechs, and other mechanics is a slippery slope that almost always leads to a bad, bad place - a place in which nobody is ever happy.

Clan tech is not superior to IS in MWO as it stands. Have a read over the following threads and you will see some very logical and unbiased evidence brought forward by individuals:
http://mwomercs.com/...are-battletech/
http://mwomercs.com/...bringer-cheese/

LiquidLlama, on 19 February 2015 - 11:41 AM, said:

Too bad I'm not very good at drawing.

There has to be something like auto-tune for drawing these days no?

[LiquidLlama]

Necromantion, on 19 February 2015 - 11:58 AM, said:

I understand the implications on clan lances however most "units" (guilds,clans, player groups which is what i was referring to by unit) does not have 4 12 mans that they can field at once.

Units in MWO are the player groups banded together under one tag, sorry for the confusion around semantics. If you look at my comment in light of that you may understand what I meant

Noted, and understood. My apologies for misunderstanding.

Quote

Yes because say a merc unit has 24 players on consistently or whatnot, then when they swap to Clan from IS 4 have to sit to play with premade groups in their own Unit or are forced to now pug drop

Logistically speaking, I'm sure Units would be able to adapt accordingly should they wish. Or maybe not, depending on the Unit and how well-received they are; only the strong survive, right?

Quote

Sorry I know you said you were new but I didnt think you were THAT new to where you didnt know how things currently work

Yes, it's true, and let me apologize for sticking my shiny, red nose in where it probably didn't belong. I've been a huge fan of the BattleTech universe for many, many years, PC gaming for almost as long (think "The Crescent Hawk's Inception" for C64 and the original "MechWarrior" for MS-DOS), so naturally I wanted to get involved with this. 4 days into my 30-day sub, and I find CW much more entertaining and challenging than individual matches. </shrug>

I'll show myself out after this comment. Heh.

Quote

Sadly dev comments are sparse

I can only imagine, and that comment was made with my tongue planted firmly in my cheek.

Quote

Clan tech is not superior to IS in MWO as it stands. Have a read over the following threads and you will see some very logical and unbiased evidence brought forward by individuals:
http://mwomercs.com/...are-battletech/
http://mwomercs.com/...bringer-cheese/

Yeah, that's the problem, isn't it; Clan tech SHOULD be superior. I'll give the last one a read (the first one is the first post in this thread, you sly dog), and thank you for being gentle. I don't expect the same courtesy on the battlefield, however.

Quote

There has to be something like auto-tune for drawing these days no?

Then it's just watching Bob Ross make Happy Little Trees.

Edited by LiquidLlama, 19 February 2015 - 12:57 PM.

[Necromantion]

LiquidLlama, on 19 February 2015 - 12:55 PM, said:

Honestly despite having always been a fan of the clans I am totally fine with them being brought into balance with IS, this is an FPS game and I feel that every chassis should be competitive within its own weight class albeit various chassis excelling at different things at times.

Interest stems from diversity.

[MossPigglet]

Alright I got two things here that may show you why clans are in need of some tweaking. Specially when its IS attacking clan.


Still think clans are fair? here's part 2.

http://metamechs.com...ists/comp-list/

Long Range (700-1100+ meters)

Tier 1: Timber Wolf TBR-C/D | Dire Wolf DWF-B | Hellbringer HBR-Prime/A/B | Stormcrow SCR-Prime/A/C/D

Tier 2: Thunderbolt TDR-9S | Stalker STK-4N | Shadowhawk SHD-2K | Warhawk WHK-C | Summoner SMN-Prime/B/C/D | Jagermech JM6-S | Quickdraw QKD-4G | Stalker Misery

Tier 3: Victor Dragon Slayer | Cataphract CTF-3D | Nova NVA-Prime/A/B | Blackjack BJ-3 | Banshee BNC-3M | King Crab KGC-0000 | Hunchback HBK-4J |Awesome AWS-9M

Medium Range (300-700 meters)

Tier 1: Timber Wolf TBR-C/D | Dire Wolf DWF-S | Hellbringer HBR-Prime/A/B | Stormcrow SCR-Prime/A/C/D

Tier 2: Banshee BNC-3E | Stalker STK-4N | Summoner SMN-Prime/B/C/D | Stalker Misery | King Crab KGC-000 | King Crab KGC-000 | Wolverine WVR-6K | Victor Dragon Slayer | Jagermech JM6-DD | Highlander 733C | Cataphract CTF-4X | Cataphract CTF-3D | Warhawk WHK-C

Tier 3: Dragon DRG-1N | Gargoyle GAR-Prime | Orion Protector | Shadowhawk SHD-2H | Nova NVA-Prime/A/B | Awesome AWS-8Q | Trebuchet TBT-7M

Short Range (0-300 meters)

Tier 1: Timber Wolf TBR-S | Griffin GRF-3M | Stormcrow SCR-Prime/A/C/D | Mad Dog MDD-Prime/A//B/C

Tier 2: Victor VTR-9S | Warhawk WHK-B | Dire Wolf DWF-S | Thunderbolt TDR-5SS | Wolverine WVR-7K | Summoner SMN-Prime/B/C/D | Trebuchet Loup de Guerre | Quickdraw QKD-4H | King Crab KGC-0000 | Atlas AS7-S | Stalker STK-5M | Atlas AS7-D-DC | Cataphract CTF-3D | Hellbringer HBR-Prime/A/B | Griffin Sparky | Hunchback HBK-4P | Catapult K2 | Gargoyle GAR-D

Tier 3: Orion ON1-VA | Shadowhawk Gray Death | Shadowhawk SHD-2D2 | Shadowhawk SHD-2K | Centurion CN9-AH | Hunchback HBK-4G | Blackjack Arrow | Nova NVA-Prime/A/B | Banshee BNC-3M | Thunderbolt TDR-9SE | Highlander HGN-733C | Dragon Flame | Battlemaster BLR-3S | Kintaro Golden Boy



Except for the Griffin all Tier 1 Mechs in all ranges are CLAN.

Edited by CardMaster7, 20 February 2015 - 12:18 AM.

[Necromantion]

CardMaster7, on 20 February 2015 - 12:14 AM, said:

Look man, did you read any of the posts on here?

The map is heavily influenced by population within factions as well as cohesiveness and to be frank there seems to be a lot more squabbling and petty crap that goes on in the IS factions than with Clans.

I and many other people who have played both factions on here have not had any issues beating 12 mans with good players as IS vs Clan. Heck some of the best 12v12 matchs MS has had in my experience have been against IS units when we are Clan.

That website that you linked the mech "tiers" from is subjective and a lot of comp players I have talked to say its a load of garbage.

I cant believe I am about to say this but seriously, learn to play people. Use mechs with quirks on IS that fit your playstyle or adapt your playstyle to work with the quirks.

[MossPigglet]

Yeah I did read the post. Stop disregarding the facts.

I am saying that, clanners are in need of some balance tweaks because they are in need of balance tweaks, not just because of more pre made units and such.

And I got those tiers from a neutral net source that's based off of building mechs with the quirks in mind. I do use mechs on this tier list almost exact builds (I may throw on an ams to help deal with streak boats and such) And I usually break even in my matches, 4 kills for 4 deaths, but my team and I will loose the match defending or attacking.

And I can tell you, unless we, as IS, are attacking with a group of 8 thunderbolts with ER PPC's, we will almost never win an offensive match against a defending clan group, it just doesn't happen.

Then you get people crying over ER PPC's being OP and such. Yes they are OP, but so is clan laser vomit, LRM 5 spam (cockpit shake for days), Streak boats and so on. Clan mechs have the range to defend gates no problem from afar, and the streak boats and other high alpha builds to level anyone coming through the gate. And unless we suicide as the first wave of IS mechs to get a gate open (which clans almost never have to do for the record) then its not going to happen till we are down 20 mechs.

I will gladly give up ER PPC Thunderbolts, to never see laser vomit, streak boats, or LRM 5 spam again. And at least with direct fire weapons, that are not lasers, you have to be a good shot, you miss and you miss, that's the reality of it. Unlike lasers, where you can miss for half the laser duration but still lay on some damage, and every point of damage counts.

Edited by CardMaster7, 20 February 2015 - 11:29 PM.

[Eider]

Broken hitboxes and extra long range lasers? or did you think everyone has a primarily stormcrow deck cause of skillz? lol