146 replies to this topic

[macmerritt]

I want to start by saying that I have the utmost respect for Bryan and the entire Piranha Games staff. It is not easy to design a game let alone one with so much history and so many fans. As a person with a game design degree I have a small amount of understanding in trying to balance all of the factors in creating a game. As one with only schooling I have a limited knowledge in the true creation process so would like some clarification on this issue and only want my feedback on this topic to be known. I hope to make a compelling and educated arguement for canon units to be included and playable but in the end will respect the decisions of the Creative Team and Piranha as it is their money at risk and final say that we all have to live with no matter the outcome.

Canon Mercenary Units and MWO

To Bryan Ekman and Piranha Games,
I’m sure you fine folks are sick and tired of this question and I hate to beat a dead horse but with the various statements about faction members being able to take famous House units I feel the topic needs to be revisited. Bryan your earlier post and statements were clear in that we, the players that wish to be mercenaries, will not be allowed to take canon mercenary units names as our own. You even went so far as to clarify that we cannot take any variation of these famous names thus eliminating any possibility of these units seeing action.
Now at first I understood this concept and decision as it would prevent arguments over who had the right to claim these famous units. With nearly a dozen well established Battletech/Mechwarrior gaming leagues this conflict was bound to occur so the Creative Team at Piranha decided to prevent it by just removing the canon units. Again I agreed with this decision despite the fact that I am a member of one of the Kell Hound units active today. Let’s look into the two sides of this argument and see if your decision still holds water so to speak.
Reasons to ban canon merc unit names:

• Prevent arguments over unit ownership and entitlement. This is by far and away the greatest reason for your decision and one I wholly support. There is little that can be said to argue against this point.
  
• Key units being in key places at certain times. There are many famous units that NEED to be in certain places to keep with the epic feel of the coming struggle with the Clans. Wolf’s Dragoons sat out most of the Clan invasion so it would be hard to see them running around the Inner Sphere fighting when they were supposed to be massing their strength on Outreach. Later the Dragoons and my own Kell Hounds fought at Luthien and if these units aren’t part of that fight it just seems wrong. I would recommend making all canon merc units similar to how you plan to handle planets, by classifying them as Free(non-Canon), Faction (for long standing merc outfits like McCarrons Armored Cavalry), and finally Core (Wolf’s Dragoons, Kell Hounds, Northwind Highlanders). The Faction units can only fight for their faction but have more freedom than say a House unit. The Core units would be free to fight as they see fit until a key moment comes around, i.e. the Battle of Luthien, Twycross, etc. This would keep the canon units under limited control yet allow them to be active in the universe so long as that unit signs a document and agrees to follow the Devs decisions about the Core moments of that unit.
  
• Maintaining that legendary or mythical status for canon units. Most of us do not want to see some of these famous units being used and abused by immature players or acting outside of character for that unit. Sadly as it sits with your ruling a famous unit, The Eridani Light Horse, have sadly been perverted into The Eridani Light Ponys including a silly My Light Pony silhouette in their unit signatures. Things like this are what I didn’t want to see when Bryan made his announcement about canon names not being allowed. Units like the Northwind Highlanders did it the right way by becoming the Windbourne Highlanders, coming up with a new name, backstory, and unit emblem that maintains the feel and traditions of that great unit without damaging a proud and legendary name. (I do not dislike the Eridani guys; I just disagree with their use of My Little Pony as adults.)
  
• Future plans for these key units. This is another one that is purely conjecture and speculation but I feel that the Devs are holding back some of these key units for key moments. I hate to keep going back to the Battle of Luthien but I feel that this would be a great opportunity to get the various merc unit members to fight as one collective force. Maybe the Devs plan to host a massive battle scenario where all of the mercenary faction members will plays as the combined seven plus regiments of mercenaries arrayed against the Clan war machine at the gates of the Imperial City. Who would argue with hundreds of players fighting dozens of battles over the course of a weekend that would decide the fate of Luthien and possibly the Draconis Combine. I’m willing to give Bryan and his Creative team some points for this one if they are in fact planning something along these lines. If you guys aren’t, why the heck haven’t you considered this possibility aside from the massive logistics of such an event.
  
• Copyright Issues. I think this one is pretty self-explanatory but needed to be mentioned. Most of these units are part of the IP so it really should not be an issue but some units might be under copyright protection due to the various authors and companies that have added to the Battletech universe over the years. I have not looked as deeply into this as there isn’t as much information on the legal issues of the names as there is on the Unseen Mechs so I won’t argue this one too much, if others have a better understanding of this issue I would appreciate their input.
  
• Breaking of canon storylines. Many fear that by these units being active that the canon storyline will be affected. Sadly the timeline and story integrity is already being affected by technically splitting the Federated Commonwealth into its two separate halves and possibly allowing them to fight one another. Additionally with the factions being able to start fighting over worlds prior to the arrival of the Clans what’s to stop the Capellans from recapturing their lost worlds prior to Operation Guerrero. What’s to keep the selectable House units from acting outside of their canon storylines and why are they entitled to be used and not these mercenary forces?

Now to look at the other side of this debate and why canon units should be active and functioning.
Reasons to include canon mercenary units:

• Unit visibility. These canon units need to be seen on the field. What would Battletech and Mechwarrior be without seeing The Black Widow Company running around, or seeing The Big Mac (McCarrons Armored Cavalry) probing the border of the Federated Suns. We need to see these units on the field of battle, to look across and catch that glimpse of red and black Kell Hound colors or the tartan patterns of the Northwind Highlanders. I personally feel that would bring something special to the many battles we will all be fighting over the coming months and years. Without them it would seem just a little bit less dramatic or immersive.
  
• Unit history. As much as you want to maintain and protect these units’ histories and the canon storyline why not allow us to build upon these illustrious units. Yes some units will fall apart, be crushed or perform poorly when in canon they did amazingly well against crazy odds. Why would it be a bad thing to see units like the Grey Death Legion fail where they succeeded while units like Waco’s Rangers thrive instead of sinking into near obscurity prior to the Jihad. With the possibility that the Clan invasion might go differently why not allow these units changes their own fates as well.
  
• Player history. Many units have been together since the rise of internet gaming. Some units claim their founding’s as far back as 1995 with the rise of Mechwarrior 2 and the emergence of ISPs like AOL. If you look through a lot of these mercenary unit threads some units have long and proud histories and now with the rise of MWO players are returning after 12 years wandering through the wasteland of a Mechwarrior less world. My own unit claims a nearly seven year history as the Kell Hounds in the NBT league but other Kell Hound units can claim older heritage so what prevents them from claiming the name over my own unit. Technically nothing. Hopefully this game will finally bring the various units together and make them combine their histories and philosophies to make a better unit. The Wolf’s Dragoon guys were going about this the right way and had actually setup a website to allow all of the disparate Wolf’s Dragoons units to form up and organize and eventually work together for a common goal. To stop the Clans we will need cooperation like this in the future so why not give us this time prior to the invasion to work out the kinks and settle the disputes that will arise from units coming together.
  
• Immersive names and logos. I know this kind of ties into Unit visibility but only so much as in “realistic” or acceptable mercenary unit visuals. I would much prefer to see the accepted color schemes, logos, and naming patterns that fit in with a militaristic world like the Battletech universe. I dislike the rise over the last few years of these immature gamers calling themselves Bronies, Derpsquad, etc. as I feel this takes away from the world and the immersion factor that is trying to be rekindled in MWO. World of Tanks suffered from various units that just didn’t fit into the World War II setting and thus removed a lot of the fun and appeal of that game for me. I would hate to go up against The Fluffy Bunnies, a unit of pink clad assault mechs that do nothing but spout silly Family Guy on-liners throughout an organized planetary raid. Units like these should be discouraged and allowing groups to take canon units they would have to abide by a code of conduct that would maintain the integrity of the universe. This won’t totally prevent some people acting like fools but if enough pressure is put on them by the community as a whole maybe we can limit their impact on our beloved game world.

Now I’m sure I’ve missed some key points to both sides of this argument but I’ve never been known to be well spoken so by all means please add in to the conversation. I just want Bryan and the Piranha team to know that many of us out there are not just whining about not getting our names. A lot of us understand the decision, or at least did at first but with the addition of House units being utilized we find ourselves scratching our collective heads.
I would like some clarification from the Devs or Bryan specifically as to why they will not allow the usage of canon mercenary units but will allow the canon factions to go to war prior to the Clan invasion or for house units to be utilized while conflicting with canonicity. I would hope that the Devs will either change their minds or allow the canon units to be selected, purchased, or earned through mercenary faction points as community warfare progresses in the future. I understand that things are also still in the developmental stages but with roughly 20% of the player base going mercenary it might be beneficial to assuage our concerns and confusion over this critical issue.


Additionally this same arguement can be put in place for some of the House units that are supposedly going to be withheld or limited. I am mostly interested in the Devs reasoning for the ban on canon Merc units.

Edited by MacMerritt, 29 June 2012 - 09:37 AM.

[Tarrasque]

Interesting.

[John Kerensky]

I don't understand why they don't just make them dev-controlled factions. If you want to fight under the banner of a certain Merc group from canon, you should certainly be able to do so; why are they "discriminating" against people who love the canon merc factions most (you could make the same argument for the periphery, really...)? Players should not, however, be able to lay claim to the 'leadership' of said merc faction.

[Project_Mercy]

They didn't say the units are never going to exist. All they've said so far is that you're not allowed to create players with known names, and you can't create a merc group with it. They're currently NPC/Dev controlled.

I think it's pretty well common sense as to why. You may think you have history as to why you deserve some name. but there are plenty of other people that have equally justifiable reasons as to why they should get the name instead. There's no valid way to arbitrate it.

There's already known factions in the game (Through the houses). Later on there will be clans. It's not off-base that there won't be known other organizations either (Comstar, WOB, known merc units, etc). It's just that who owns/runs them will be defintiive.

Edited by Wraeththix Constantine, 29 June 2012 - 09:41 AM.

[Fear Radick]

I think that most of the big names will exist in their planned community warfare add ons later in the year, and we, as players will be able to join each of these units as we please, only unlike our own units we won't necessarily have direct control of the unit. As i understand it we will get reputation with our chosen unit, which i would assume would lead to more input as to the focus of that particular unit.

I don't think that structure will in any way affect your ability to form your own sub unit within the existing group and play together. Really it would only come down to not having control of a specific name, and what is the big deal there so long as you can still fight alongside people you like?

[Mechteric]

I think your reasons to ban far outweigh the reasons to allow them

[BFalcon]

Let me put it this way... I could lay claim to the Jaime Wolf name and the Wolf's Dragoons unit name and nobody has more of a claim to it than I do (or less). Just because you use a name in a previous game has no relevance to this game.

This is one thing they're trying to avoid - otherwise we could end up with 20 variants on the name for both the character and the unit... hardly a viable situation.

There is also the matter of quality - if a unit is considered elite, such as the Dragoons, the members should be good enough to back up the unit's reputation. By insisting on qualifications before being allowed to join in a junior position, they can control that quality. If players want freedom, they can build their own reputations and have the freedom to control their own units fully.

It's basically a comprimise and one I support.

[FactorlanP]

Copyright issues trump all of your reasons to allow it. The last thing we want is for MWO to get shut down because lawyers get involved.

I am also of the opinion that allowing players to corrupt key elements of canon is a bad idea. It goes without saying that players will abuse the canon unit names for their own ends.

On a similar note, I think that they need to filter out all of the canon character names also. It's bad enough that we have 1000 various Steiners and Kerenskys floating around on the BBS... Just my opinion.

[Tremor]

I do not think Canon factions should be in the hands of players. I do, however, support having them as playable non-player controlled factions. Pick up the banner, not the reigns.

[BenEEeees VAT GROWN BACON]

Well written post OP.

Concerning your distaste over traditional unit identities being high-jacked by bronies etc... I think that is inevitable as cultures will shift and incorporate new and old memes into current identities. I think the Eridani Lights were very clever here in how they circumvented the ban on canon unit ownership.

If I recall correctly, canon units will exist but will not be player controlled. Players will still be able to associate themselves with these units by undertaking missions for them, and thus accruing rank and loyalty points. I guess if you were particularly loyal to one unit you may undertake missions solely for that unit until you've gained enough rank for leadership.

On the conquest of worlds, I think that while border worlds and minor planets will be constantly swapped, the vital "canonical" ones will unlock as special events that players can participate in. This way, the storyline does not become too disrupted while giving players some ownership over major events.

The issue over disparate groups fighting over canon names is a huge one I think, and really I cannot think of a solution that solves it aside from an outright ban. Who will arbitrate these disputes when they arise? It will be a time consuming and bitter process.

For my own unit, we'll carry the cognomen "Sorei" and function as an attaché to the regiment proper. Canonically speaking, my newly attached company has yet to prove itself to the Ryuken-Ni and while we serve together, full integration will not occur until my unit has performed enough missions to prove itself. This way, my unit works together with the game's mechanics in order to fit into canon.

Edited by BenEEeees VAT GROWN BACON, 29 June 2012 - 10:05 AM.

[Insidious Johnson]

[BenEEeees VAT GROWN BACON]

Insidious Johnson, on 29 June 2012 - 10:06 AM, said:

Talking to a bat while standing around a horse that has fallen sideways?

[Bongo TauKat]

I think the whole argument is moot. Even playing in the IS storyline of 3049, Clan Star Adder is still our clan's identity. Whether it be a tag, cammo, or just known amongst us, we will play as a unit under whatever banner we choose, regardless of whatever the game imposes.

So look for us, Clan Star Adder...advanced scouts in the inner sphere for an advanced race under an assumed identity.

[David Decoster]

BenEEeees VAT GROWN BACON, on 29 June 2012 - 10:08 AM, said:

Talking to a bat while standing around a horse that has fallen sideways?

Nope. White collar pinada.

[gregsolidus]

I don't think the world needs Erandi Light Bronies.Lets keep the originals pure.

[Promptus]

[BenEEeees VAT GROWN BACON]

Promptus, on 29 June 2012 - 10:15 AM, said:

WAVING A MAGIC WAND OVER THE ANIMAL THAT KICKED HIM IN THE NUTS!

I'm good at this!

Edited by BenEEeees VAT GROWN BACON, 29 June 2012 - 10:18 AM.

[RG Notch]

Hmm I read your post OP and it doesn't seem to agree with the title. None of the reasons you list as why it is a bad idea strike me as meaningful, while many of the arguments against are very clear and logical. Plus like all the meme posters, this horse is starting to stink.

[Bongo TauKat]

Promptus, on 29 June 2012 - 10:15 AM, said:

I think he pointing out the cut of meat he wants to stick under his hat as Captain Moratio Hoggleswather.

[Donovan Jenks]

Wraeththix Constantine, on 29 June 2012 - 09:40 AM, said:

They didn't say the units are never going to exist. All they've said so far is that you're not allowed to create players with known names, and you can't create a merc group with it. They're currently NPC/Dev controlled.

I think it's pretty well common sense as to why. You may think you have history as to why you deserve some name. but there are plenty of other people that have equally justifiable reasons as to why they should get the name instead. There's no valid way to arbitrate it.

There's already known factions in the game (Through the houses). Later on there will be clans. It's not off-base that there won't be known other organizations either (Comstar, WOB, known merc units, etc). It's just that who owns/runs them will be defintiive.

I tend to agree with this post. The only way to make these units maintain their relevance and established reputation in game as in canon is to have them NPC controlled factions. YOU cannot form the Kell Hounds, the Kell Hounds exist as a faction and you can run mission to earn faction standing with them or something like that.

This all boils down to how much this game wants to shakle itself to the canon arc which will obviously limit the creative liberties they can take. I believe that these mercs groups should not be open for players to found but should be treated like small successor states that people can join. If you want to forge your own path make your own merc group. If not then you could have senarios that the Kell Hounds are not 2 regiments but 15 regiments and actually end up defeating Clan Jade Falcon and forming House Kell.