29 replies to this topic

[Kumakichi]

Would it be imbalanced if advanced light mech pilots could get modules that would let them jam radars at longer ranges? Say right about max range of LRM's or perhaps gauss rifles? And by that I mean they can jam radar but once your within that max range jamming becomes ineffective. And not just any light mech pilot but someone who has devoted there time and efforts into being an elite or dedicated light mech pilot.

Edited by Kumakichi, 29 June 2012 - 10:30 AM.

[Joseph Mallan]

It would break canon. ECM had a fairly short range. So speed will have to be your jamming device!

[Kumakichi]

Ah... I was wondering. So how does ECM work in Canon? Is is supposed to break target lock or something?

[Spleenslitta]

You could use passive sensors but that doesn't really answer the question does it?

[Jakob Knight]

Also, the jamming of sensors was part of the stealth systems that were lost when the Star League failed. The best that has been achieved in the current timeframe is to keep battlemechs from being spotted at very long ranges. By the time a unit got close enough to be in weapons ranges, it was far too close to conceal with anything other than a full stealth system (and even those could only minimize lock-ons -to- the stealthed unit, not to everything on the battlefield). Jamming wide-band detection systems with laser and optical backup is almost impossible, and would require all of a pilot's attention to even have a chance (meaning, no movement, targeting enemies, or evasive actions).

From a gameplay perspective, this would make light mechs too powerful, as a single light unit could render an assault mech useless without ever entering combat range, and still have its own weapons free to fire and without anything the Assault mech could do to end the disabling. Sorry, no 'I WIN' button here.

[Jakob Knight]

Kumakichi, on 29 June 2012 - 10:35 AM, said:

Ah... I was wondering. So how does ECM work in Canon? Is is supposed to break target lock or something?

ECM works by an automated system of countermeasures designed to detect and counter specific threats such as Artemis and Streak systems. It also has a broad-spectrum jammer that can help blind Active Probe systems. However, it has no effect on standard multimode sensors or targeting systems, as these are too powerful to impede with the size of system mountable on a mobile military unit like a battlemech. In tabletop rules, it removes the special rules for Artemis IV and NARC missile control systems, Active Probes, and C3 systems within its range (180 meters).

[Bongo TauKat]

Perhaps if within 180 meters the ECM could cause a "fritzing" effect to the HUD, or make missile lock take longer than usual?

[Ragor]

Joseph Mallan, on 29 June 2012 - 10:29 AM, said:

It would break canon. ECM had a fairly short range. So speed will have to be your jamming device!

Not the full truth m8.
What about the Raven and its probe? This is what the whole Raven is all about: Jamming, creating a 'white noise' radar field on long range.

Be careful to rely on canon if you are just guessing.

Edited by Ragor, 29 June 2012 - 10:46 AM.

[Endless Ike]

Depends on how big a cannon you're talking about

[Viper69]

Also passive scanners and shutting down and monitoring radio chatter is what scout mechs did a lot.

[Joseph Mallan]

Ragor, on 29 June 2012 - 10:45 AM, said:

Not the full truth m8.
What about the Raven and its probe? This is what the whole Raven is all about: Jamming, creating a 'white noise' radar field on long range.

Be careful to rely on canon if you are just guessing.

An interesting point but unfortunately moot. In The original MechCommander game a Raven had a larger detection bubble due to better electronics. BUT the range increase was not... dramatic. and it's ECM was 180M radius IIRC. So my answer still stands. Not guessing, Played the games, hashed over the rules both as a player and a Commando.

[wanderer]

Kumakichi, on 29 June 2012 - 10:28 AM, said:

Would it be imbalanced if advanced light mech pilots could get modules that would let them jam radars at longer ranges? Say right about max range of LRM's or perhaps gauss rifles? And by that I mean they can jam radar but once your within that max range jamming becomes ineffective. And not just any light mech pilot but someone who has devoted there time and efforts into being an elite or dedicated light mech pilot.

What ECM does is create a "bubble" around the ECM generator that ruins advanced targeting systems and the like that have to try and draw a line-of-sight through it.

A light 'Mech can be very effective in screening simply by being able to keep itself between it's team and the enemy in tabletop. The more stuff like Artemis, Streak racks and such that show up, the more handy it's going to be to have "interdictor" units with a good ECM system.

[Ragor]

Joseph Mallan, on 29 June 2012 - 10:56 AM, said:

An interesting point but unfortunately moot. In The original MechCommander game a Raven had a larger detection bubble due to better electronics. BUT the range increase was not... dramatic. and it's ECM was 180M radius IIRC. So my answer still stands. Not guessing, Played the games, hashed over the rules both as a player and a Commando.

Er... 'the original MechCommander' game? Sorry, but your 'original MC' was for sure not the the first Battletech computer game. And Battletech started in 1984. First release was called Battledroids but 'droids' was copyrighted by LucasArts.
The whole lore and canon is based on the tabletop game Battletech from 1984. All computer games are simplified versions of the original game. If you want to get into the lore get the sourcebooks and TROs.

Or the cheesy way would be to visit sarna and start reading.

'The original MechCommander'... still got me^^ Good one, thx for that! Cheers mate

[Joseph Mallan]

Nope it was the PC MechCommander game I was talking about. I started in the BattleTech Universe back in '86. Joe Mallan was my first Character a Lance Commander. He piloted a Battlemaster. I know about BattleDroids (but missed out on playing under that title) and even own a couple re cast Minis.(being honest I'm not sure if they are Authentic or bootleg but I have all the same)

I've been around the block as a Playtester for Rick Raisley's HeavyMetalPro programs, and the latest rule set of TT rules as a Commando for the first 2 1/2 rulebooks, several of the field manuals carry my name in the thanks credits and My daughter is even a named character in the Merc Handbooks. I've been out of the loop for the last 2-3 years but I know my way around the game and Universe pretty well.

Nice to meet you!

[Direalien]

As a die hard raven pilot. How do you think the ecm and stuff is going to work? In mw4 i was just a fast harrasser. I didnt take alot of ecm or any of the other stuff and loaded out with as much weaponry and went as fast as possible and made life hell for the other guy.

[Ragor]

Joseph Mallan, on 29 June 2012 - 11:27 AM, said:

Nope it was the PC MechCommander game I was talking about. I started in the BattleTech Universe back in '86. Joe Mallan was my first Character a Lance Commander. He piloted a Battlemaster. I know about BattleDroids (but missed out on playing under that title) and even own a couple re cast Minis.(being honest I'm not sure if they are Authentic or bootleg but I have all the same)

I've been around the block as a Playtester for Rick Raisley's HeavyMetalPro programs, and the latest rule set of TT rules as a Commando for the first 2 1/2 rulebooks, several of the field manuals carry my name in the thanks credits and My daughter is even a named character in the Merc Handbooks. I've been out of the loop for the last 2-3 years but I know my way around the game and Universe pretty well.

Nice to meet you!

Nice e-peen.^^

But doens't matter how long it grows, but the Raven still has the ability to interrupt and/or on long range enemies electronics and / or fool them. Simple as that. Or why do you think the Raven is called Raven? Oh, because of his shape? And why does the Raven has such a shape? What does he carry in his nifty pecker?

Anyway, since you are such pro and worked on so much stuff of the BTU then I wonder why you didn't recall facts of it. Or simple read the source to verify which -for sure- you got at hand.

And please don't get this as an attack or anything regarding you, me was just stating some facts. Relying on the BTU and not on a spin-off computer game.
Not looking for a premature e-peen contest nor do I wanna discredit anyone.

[Lars Von Danzig]

Ragor, on 29 June 2012 - 11:38 AM, said:

Nice e-peen.^^

But doens't matter how long it grows, but the Raven still has the ability to interrupt and/or on long range enemies electronics and / or fool them. Simple as that. Or why do you think the Raven is called Raven? Oh, because of his shape? And why does the Raven has such a shape? What does he carry in his nifty pecker?

Anyway, since you are such pro and worked on so much stuff of the BTU then I wonder why you didn't recall facts of it. Or simple read the source to verify which -for sure- you got at hand.

And please don't get this as an attack or anything regarding you, me was just stating some facts. Relying on the BTU and not on a spin-off computer game.
Not looking for a premature e-peen contest nor do I wanna discredit anyone.

Wow, I don't know how anyone could take the condescending tone of your posts as anything but an attack. Show some courtesy and respect to your fellow community members please.

- LVD

[wanderer]

Ragor, on 29 June 2012 - 11:38 AM, said:

Nice e-peen.^^

But doens't matter how long it grows, but the Raven still has the ability to interrupt and/or on long range enemies electronics and / or fool them. Simple as that. Or why do you think the Raven is called Raven? Oh, because of his shape? And why does the Raven has such a shape? What does he carry in his nifty pecker?

Anyway, since you are such pro and worked on so much stuff of the BTU then I wonder why you didn't recall facts of it. Or simple read the source to verify which -for sure- you got at hand.

Canonically, Ravens have no such ability beyond the aforementioned functions of their Guardian ECM system. If something tries to work through the space that ECM bubble occupies, the Guardian ECM system can mess with it- but it's never had the ability to mess with things that pass through at ranges outside of 180m from itself. The modern version has a ton of nice toys, though- TAG designator, NARC beacon launcher, a Beagle probe that detects hidden units at modest ranges, and the aforementioned Guardian ECM section.

I figure when it's released, we'll see it also have lots of module space as well related to those sorts of abilities.

[Joseph Mallan]

Ragor, on 29 June 2012 - 11:38 AM, said:

Nice e-peen.^^

But doens't matter how long it grows, but the Raven still has the ability to interrupt and/or on long range enemies electronics and / or fool them. Simple as that. Or why do you think the Raven is called Raven? Oh, because of his shape? And why does the Raven has such a shape? What does he carry in his nifty pecker?

Anyway, since you are such pro and worked on so much stuff of the BTU then I wonder why you didn't recall facts of it. Or simple read the source to verify which -for sure- you got at hand.

And please don't get this as an attack or anything regarding you, me was just stating some facts. Relying on the BTU and not on a spin-off computer game.
Not looking for a premature e-peen contest nor do I wanna discredit anyone.

IIRC NARC is capable of being jammed by ECM,Beagle Probe does detect hidden units(W/i 90 M), but still does not void the 180 M range of ECM.

I must be missing what you are getting at Ragor? Nothing that the Raven had electronically functions past a rang of 180M. There is No long range jamming as the OP is talking about.

Please if you will sight your reference. Because unless the Cappy TRO had some fluff I missed, A raven is a good Electronic warfare ride, but I've killed enough of 'em and MODed enough of em to feel pretty confident in my knowledge of the ride. And yes, the appearance is cosmetic. There are a few Mechs that have a similar electronic package that don't look at all bird-like.

And yes, I do have a decent list of credits

Wanderer, Lars, thanks for the nod, I have been out for a bit and my memory ain't what it once was!

Edited by Joseph Mallan, 29 June 2012 - 12:09 PM.

[Project_Mercy]

ECM in BT is a dicey affair. Since most mech battles are engaged at danger-close ranges, most of the weapons are physically targeted, sometimes with the help of a targetting computer to do some basic assistance. Out of the standard IS mech armaments, only LRMs have any sort of guidance system in them, and even that's pretty mediocre. Jamming a mech is about as effective as jamming a P-51. You can take out his/her radio, and maybe screw up some specific sensors, but you're not really going to stop him from doing anything important.

This changes when people started using more complex systems, BAP, C3, NARC, etc. Then things start to pick up.