98 replies to this topic

[Bishop Steiner]

Howdy.

I'm Bishop Steiner. And I love Vindies.

Many people mock them, and underestimate them. A handful of us "get" them, and do shockingly well in them, quite consistently. My 1AA is an absolute pocket terror as a fast harasser, my SIB is a great hit and run skirmisher and my 1R is a dual ppc poptarting machine.

But the real orphan of the pack, is the 1X.

It stands out, because it's the only VND with ballistics. That is it's blessing, and it's curse.

The problem? 3 Ballistic hardpoints, on a 45 ton chassis. They just don't "work".

If you want to use them all, with any other decent weaponry, that means Machine Guns.

Problem is, since two nerf passes on MGs (crit reduction, then dmg reduction when their hitreg was supposedly fixed, which , in turn, furhter reduced the MGs critical capabilities.) even 4-6 MG mechs like the Ember or Arrow, scarcely get any real use of them, and anything under 4 is absolutely a waste of tonnage.

So, why not use a couple light ACs, or one mediums, like an LB-X?

Because sadly, anything you can do with the VND with that, the BJ-1, does better. As do most other ballistic Mediums. (CN9, HBK, etc). You don't have the tonnage to have a decent speed, or second heavier weapon. And the Other Hardpoints, (a single Missile and 2 energy, RA and H) are insufficient.

SO, solutions?

1) Quirks. The 1X gets better PPC/ER PPC quirks, on par with the TDR-9S, so it's single PPC is more useful. Then it gets the MGs quirked to do either more damage, or a higher crit percentage.

or
2) Hardpoint reassignment. Remove the inflated 3rd ballistic hardpoint, and add either a second energy hardpoint to the RA, or a second missile hardpoint to the LT.

Those are my thoughts. What ideas or thoughts do the rest of you VND guys out there have on the 1X?

Edited by Bishop Steiner, 11 February 2015 - 06:33 AM.

[MeiSooHaityu]

Ok...I'm quoting my long a** posts about the 1X in here somehow lol.

[Bigbacon]

Actually ALL the Vindicators new a complete rework on their quirks. PPC quirks are meh because of that 90m minimum range thing.

1R should get some MPL quirks
1X needs an AC5 or AC2 quirks (Dual AC5s is pretty decent on this)
1AA... no clue, LPL quirk maybe or just make it ERPPC quirked

SIB is pretty much has the best one in the quirks I think.

I run my 1X with 2xAC5+2xML+220XL. It isn't the best but it works pretty well. If it had a faster AC5 ROF it would be much better. Doesn't need to be 1N levels.

I could see some dual AC2 action if they quirked the heat generation to some insanely low level so you could just sit there and fire endlessly but ammo will be a major issue. Make them like AC2 MGs, up the velocity way up, lower the heat a bunch.

they may not be the best mechs but I do like them. Really loving the 1R right now.

Edited by Bigbacon, 11 February 2015 - 06:47 AM.

[MeiSooHaityu]

Excuse the craziness , this is all my comments from another thread tied together so it's a bit long.

The only Vindicator I don't like is the 1X.

I ran an XL235 with 1 PPC, 1 A/C5, and 1 SRM4. It was ehhh. I tried a few other things like dropping the SRM for an ultra 5...ehhh. I tried running 3MGs...ehhh (not enough energy or missile to carry).

The 1X is too light to carry a good ballistic and use a PPC (while maintaining good speed). if you run a bigger ballistic, you only have 2 energy... Ehhh.

I'd like to see the 1X get a good A/C5 quirk (to work in tandem with a PPC) or MG quirks that really extend it's range. It just needs. ..something.

I actually kind of wished all Vindicators had ERPPC quirks for minimum range protection on a mech with limited hard points (1AA) or too slow to outrun a light (1R).

Still, when it cones to the 1X, I can only mount 1 PPC. Thats the issue I have . Its really the hard points that hurt the 1X for me. 3 ballistics in the arm and only 1 energy in the other arm and head is a killer. The limited tonnage (45?) means it is tricky to use a PPC and another Ballistic over an A/C5 and still maybe have room for an SRM (since both are ammo dependant).

Also, 3 ballistics in an arm of a 45ton mech I'd just useless. It means 3MGs to use all hard points. The config is so rough to deal with.

I can make it slower to make more room for a bigger ballistic (like an A/C10), but now it is slower than a Centurion and far more fragile, and I'm only carying 2 non converging MLasers .

Even if I want to run the same speed as a 1R, I have to run with 1PPC, 1 A/C5, and 1 SRM4. The 1R I run has 2PPCs and 3 SLasers (to keep all JJs and run 93kph).

This means the 1R has more firepower, higher alpha (2 PPCs doing 20dmg vs a PPC and A/C5 doing 15dmg, and the 1X is ammo dependant. Lastly, the 1X's PPC quirk to velocity is only 20% :/.

The 1X just needs help. They won't alter the loadouts or increase the engine cap (which would force it to MGs anyway :/), so it needs a nice ballistic buff.

Either long range MGs (not terribly great, but something) like 270m optimal range or a good A/C5 quirk. That way it can keep the iconic PPC arm and give it a good DPS A/C5 maybe.

I don't know exactly what weapon quirk would be best, but just SOME help.

Edited by MeiSooHaityu, 11 February 2015 - 06:40 AM.

[MeiSooHaityu]

Bigbacon, on 11 February 2015 - 06:37 AM, said:

Actually ALL the Vindicators new a complete rework on their quirks. PPC quirks are meh because of that 90m minimum range thing.

1R should get some MPL quirks
1X needs an AC5 or AC2 quirks (Dual AC5s is pretty decent on this)
1AA... no clue, LPL quirk maybe or just make it ERPPC quirked

SIB is pretty much has the best one in the quirks I think.

I run my 1X with 2xAC5+2xML+220XL. It isn't the best but it works pretty well. If it had a faster AC5 ROF it would be much better. Doesn't need to be 1N levels.

I could see some dual AC2 action if they quirked the heat generation to some insanely low level so you could just sit there and fire endlessly but ammo will be a major issue. Make them like AC2 MGs, up the velocity way up, lower the heat a bunch.

I like the 1R quirks with PPCs as is (or ERPPCs). I can fit 2 PPCs comfortably in one arm for 20dmg high FLD and 3 SLasers for under 90m protection.

I don't use the PPC quirk in the 1AA ( I use 2 LPLasers and 2 MLasers), but I can see why it has PPC quirks.

Really, the Vindicator is a PPC mech with that right arm, so I get the PPC quirks.

As for the A/C2s, I'll post what I said to Bishop in another thread...

That's kind of why I generally like higher FLD ballistics in smaller faster mechs (like mediums in general), and larger DPS ballistics in heavier mechs (like Heavies, although I also like high FLD in heavies too lol).

With larger FLD weapons in mediums I can limit my exposure to deliver a hit and dive back into cover. With heavy mechs, I'm a bit more of a damage sponge and can expose the mech to fire a bit more to lay down suppression fire from higher DPS ballistics.

If I ran 2 A/C2s in the 1X (and I have thought about it), I'd have to drop the PPC , but also have to keep the A/C2s on target for a descent period of time to take advantage of the DPS for damage. I'd probably lose my arm in the process.

15 FLD from 1PPC and 1 A/C5 is ok, but a third of that damage is ammo depend and and the PPC and A/C5 don't really hit at the same time like 2PPCs do. To me anyway, its the reason why the 1X suffers.

Edited by MeiSooHaityu, 11 February 2015 - 06:50 AM.

[Rhaythe]

Love my Vindies. But I just left a PPC and an AC10 on the 1X, since it looked like the weakest build. I never even upgraded the heat sinks to doubles. Just didn't feel like it was worth it to me, since I couldn't find a build I liked.

[FupDup]

It's still pretty sad that PGI refuses to give Rate-of-Fire quirks to MGs. We already have the same type of code used on the AMS Overload module, just with a different weapon being affected.

All PGI has done for MGs so far is range quirks, but range boosts are worthless while they still have a CoF built in.

It seems that PGI is only willing to modify the following weapon attributes with quirks:
1. Range
2. Cooldown
3. Heat
4. Velocity
5. Beam Duration

If you ask for anything, ANYTHING other than those five qualities, you're a heretic apparently. Increased upfront damage, or higher crit rates, more ammo, less spread, faster RoF (which isn't the same as cooldown buffs), jam rate/time, lock-on rates, sensor quirks, charge-up times, etc. are apparently Lostech™.

Edited by FupDup, 11 February 2015 - 06:58 AM.

[Deathlike]

Personally, the MGs need back their damage boost first, since the math has been done to prove they are ineffective unless you have 4 or more together. The ninja nerf by the man who shall not be name is the primary culprit for the uselessness of MGs at 3, or even 2.

I've already said my piece on the Vindicators and while my article on them shed light on the "terribad variant" of the bunch... all I can say is the words of one John Hodgman...

"You're welcome."

Edited by Deathlike, 11 February 2015 - 07:04 AM.

[STEF_]

Well, I've been tempted by Vindy, because it's cool, but, let me tell you, except the AA1, trying to leveling Vindy is a real pain

The problem is that a support mech should have decent speed, but ok, with max engine, it's not so slow-ish: sadly that speed is not enough to stand above 90 m, for ppc minimum range
Enemy mechs with more speed (a loooot of mechs available) can easily come close, and, let's say honestly, Vindy is not made for brawling, at all.
PPC is a medium range weapon, and medium range engagement becomes short range brawl very easily... because mechs generally run faster than the Vindy

While, in TT 3 mg may have sense, here it' hasn't, the 1X is the pain of the pain to level, 'cause max engine weight + no MG ballistic = decent config. impossible.

So my proposal:

1) ppc quirks ------> er PPC quirks (at least for the 1R and 1X; 1AA has enough speed to stand at +90m)

2) MG quirks strong as hell for the 1X, that is triple fire rate, triple critical.

3) at least another energy/missile hardpoint for the 1X

[0bsidion]

I actually like the way the 1X is. I have a build with an LBX10 and 2 MGs that works for me. It's in fact my favorite variant.

[Mcgral18]

If it would help, a 3rd missile hardpoint exists.

[Fate 6]

All this talk of Vindicators lately makes me want to get some... Even though I really don't like my Blackjacks since all of the nerfs to AC2s and PPCs (and their relative lack of quirks).

Why don't they just give the 1X a combination of decent AC5 quirks (20% CDR) and PPC quirks (~25% CDR) and let it be a decent mech that also runs an interesting and balanced loadout. Throw on a 15% missile range and 15% missile cooldown and I think we've got a really nice mech.

Edited by Fate 6, 11 February 2015 - 08:48 AM.

[Deathlike]

Mcgral18, on 11 February 2015 - 08:38 AM, said:

If it would help, a 3rd missile hardpoint exists.

I approve of the Splatvind.

[Felio]

My only Vindy so far is the St. Ives, and I'd like to get at least two more obviously.

Regarding machine guns, I've sort of come to the conclusion that you're actually better off with empty space/tonnage than you are filling it with MGs. They are more likely to distract you into a fatal situation than they are to lead you to victory against anyone.

[Eric darkstar Marr]

I think the best you can hope for is a solid quirk pass. I really can't think of a time other then vaguely that they changed hard points on a mech and I think that was back in CB.

I would love to play the vindi but I am a hold out waiting on a bundle. I love underdog mechs.

[kapusta11]

Here try this.

[MeiSooHaityu]

Felio, on 11 February 2015 - 08:54 AM, said:

My only Vindy so far is the St. Ives, and I'd like to get at least two more obviously.

Regarding machine guns, I've sort of come to the conclusion that you're actually better off with empty space/tonnage than you are filling it with MGs. They are more likely to distract you into a fatal situation than they are to lead you to victory against anyone.

When it comes to MGs, it seems that way.

I'd wait till the next quirk pass hits before buying any Vindis. However, if nothing much changes for the Vindicator, I'd get the 1AA and 1R for sure.

I like the 1AA as a fast moving short/medium range skirmisher with 2 LPLasers and 2 MLasers. If your all about sniping, you can fit 2 PPCs and 1 MLaser with the fastest engine (XL295) with full JJs when you equip it with Endo and Ferro.

I equip my 1R as a sniper myself. 2 PPCs in the right arm, the rest of the 3 energy points with SLasers (under 90m protection). I run the biggest engine (XL235) with full JJs.

Just some ideas.

[Redwo1f]

idk, i tend to do just fine in them...my 1R is my dual PPC'er (throw in PPC mods on top and the thing can throw them like there is no tomorrow- lol), my 1AA is my disco (porting all pulse lasers), my SIB is my dual large laser mount, and as it stands right now, my best in stats is my 1X - which I port an LB10-x, dual ML, SRM4 ....keep them fast...all 93km + speed.

Edited by Redwo1f, 11 February 2015 - 09:59 AM.

[LT. HARDCASE]

I'll be overjoyed, if one of the Vindis is given ERPPC quirks in the next pass. I'd like it on the VND-SIB.

As far as the 1X, the only build that almost works for me, is a simple ERPPC + AC10 combo. Totally underwhelming but that's it.

Edited by Kevjack, 11 February 2015 - 10:05 AM.

[Mechteric]

I'd buy one, if they weren't humongous. Same problem that many other of the lesser hitbox friendly medium mechs (and the Quickdraw) have. They are (equivalent or too close to) the size of heavy/assault mechs, and therefore easier to hit than they should be without the benefit of the extra armor those bigger mechs have.

Trebuchet, Wolverine, Shadow Hawk, Centurion, Kintaro, Griffon, all need to be reduced in size to match true medium mech size (and as I said, the Quickdraw, being only 5 tons heavier than a medium yet the size of a Victor). The Hunchback and Blackjack are real good examples of good sized medium mechs.

Edited by CapperDeluxe, 11 February 2015 - 10:51 AM.