314 replies to this topic

[Nick Makiaveli]

El Bandito, on 13 February 2015 - 06:46 PM, said:

Exactly. ******* asked for it in so many posts... ...and PGI being PGI, makes the change after a year. Like the AC2 Ghost Heat. Balancing team needs some fire lit under their arses.

That said, my Lurmlas can soon fire its Triple LPLs without worries, yay!

So please tell us more about what the balancing team has been doing, since you seem to he such an expert on their activities.

[Duncan1dah0]

I like the change. I've been running my thud 5s and it is nice to have a full 3 ll punch.

[Desintegrator]

Ah, now I know why I saw soo many 3xLPL Blackjacks during the last matches !

Nice change to ghost heat ! Thanks !

[El Bandito]

Nick Makiaveli, on 17 February 2015 - 08:37 AM, said:

So please tell us more about what the balancing team has been doing, since you seem to he such an expert on their activities.

I can tell about what the balancing team is doing. They are doing a terrible job of trying to contain the PPFLDs with convoluted mess that is the GH and needless JJ nerfs. They are doing just now what any sensible balance team would have done a year ago--regarding laser and AC2 GH values.

Edited by El Bandito, 17 February 2015 - 08:54 AM.

[WarHippy]

Paul Inouye, on 13 February 2015 - 05:47 PM, said:

Effective immediately...

The following Inner Sphere Large Laser systems can now fire 3 weapons simultaneously without incurring heat scale (Previous value was 2):

Inner Sphere Large Laser
Inner Sphere Large Pulse Laser
Inner Sphere ER Large Laser

Notes:
* These changes are NOT reflected in Testing Grounds as it is a server side only temporary change.
* The multiplier for heat scale has not changed. Firing 4 of these weapons simultaneously will incur a higher than expected heat spike. You will be penalized for firing 2 extra weapons.. not just 1.
* The AC/2 changes have been made permanent and will be kept that way in the next patch. The heat scale removal on the AC/2s will be properly reflected in testing grounds at that point.

Please be advised, this is temporary testing on a large scale, the effect of reduction of heat scale on weapons as we look at how the game sits now that Clan tech has been added to the game. More to come in the future.

Current plan is to leave the IS Large Lasers in this state until the patch. If we extend the test or change any other values, we will let you know at that time.

Have a good weekend!

-Paul

So has any decision been made on if this "temporary" change will persist after today's patch?

[VoodooLou Kerensky]

And yet the Clan lasers which are supposed to be more efficient that IS lasers still incur the ghost heat. How about to make up for it that Clan Lasers are not a beam but act like a Laser is supposed to and fires a 'bullet', that travels at the speed of light (186 miles per second) and does all its damage at once instead of over time? Pulse laser would be a 3 round burst of the same 'bullets'.
Or how about IS lasers miss half the time because their Focii are pitted causing refraction? I know I know stop using real world physics in a fantasy scenario.

[Richard Warts]

VoodooLou Kerensky, on 17 February 2015 - 09:46 AM, said:

And yet the Clan lasers which are supposed to be more efficient that IS lasers still incur the ghost heat. How about to make up for it that Clan Lasers are not a beam but act like a Laser is supposed to and fires a 'bullet', that travels at the speed of light (186 miles per second) and does all its damage at once instead of over time? Pulse laser would be a 3 round burst of the same 'bullets'.
Or how about IS lasers miss half the time because their Focii are pitted causing refraction? I know I know stop using real world physics in a fantasy scenario.

Because this isn't a "realistic" style game. Furthermore with the system you propose if in place would lead to a lot more instant kills. The outcry would be enormous.

Edited by Tabu 73, 17 February 2015 - 10:00 AM.

[Gyrok]

Clans can haz 3 before ghost heat too?

[Gas Guzzler]

Gyrok, on 17 February 2015 - 09:56 AM, said:

Clans can haz 3 before ghost heat too?

I don't think I would REALLY be opposed to that..

Do me a favor first though. Go look at all the specs of the Clan TBR Laser Vomit loadout (4 ER MLs, 2 cLPLs) and 6 IS Large Lasers. Look at range, damage, tonnage, heat, etc. Notice anything interesting?

[Wintersdark]

WarHippy, on 17 February 2015 - 09:03 AM, said:

So has any decision been made on if this "temporary" change will persist after today's patch?

We'll see in an hour or two, I guess. Presumably, it'll stay in place. Certainly hasn't been complaints about it.

[Ultimax]

Gyrok, on 17 February 2015 - 09:56 AM, said:

Clans can haz 3 before ghost heat too?

3x IS LLAS w/ GH
15 Tons
24.5 Heat
27 Damage
450m Range


2x CLPL
12 Tons
20 Heat
26 Damage
600m range


If we remove GH from the LLAS, the heat drops down to 21 heat fo 27 damage vs. 20 heat vs. 26 damage - the Clan build spent

• 3 less tons
  
• 2 less slots
  
• Only needed 2 hardpoints instead of 3
  
• got an extra 150m range

... all for the measly cost of 0.12s burn time.



The Clan build is still completely superior, and can start adding CERMLAS to skew the tonnage/damage ratio even more massively in their favor.



Until Clan players become willing to look at the actual math in comparisons, they make themselves irrelevant in balance dicsussions.


I'm extremely confident that the Devs are looking at the math the same way I am, that's why so many of these comparisons can be made in the first place, many values have been purposefully normalized..

Edited by Ultimatum X, 17 February 2015 - 10:21 AM.

[vortmax]

VoodooLou Kerensky, on 17 February 2015 - 09:46 AM, said:

And yet the Clan lasers which are supposed to be more efficient that IS lasers still incur the ghost heat. How about to make up for it that Clan Lasers are not a beam but act like a Laser is supposed to and fires a 'bullet', that travels at the speed of light (186 miles per second) and does all its damage at once instead of over time?

I know I know stop using real world physics in a fantasy scenario.

No. Lasers do not act like a "bullet." If they did, these balloons would pop almost at the same time instead of one after the other over a period of tens of seconds.

Lasers emit a stream of photons at the speed of light, but they can only emit a certain amount based upon their power. A weaker laser takes longer to burn things, or does so with less effect (e.g. 250 mWatt green laser vs. 1000 mWatt green laser).

So, in actuality, the current system in MWO is more realistic than what you propose.


p.s. - 40 Watt laser cutter in action.

[Wintersdark]

Ultimatum X, on 17 February 2015 - 10:19 AM, said:

3x IS LLAS w/ GH
15 Tons
24.5 Heat
27 Damage
450m Range


2x CLPL
12 Tons
20 Heat
26 Damage
600m range


If we remove GH from the LLAS, the heat drops down to 21 heat fo 27 damage vs. 20 heat vs. 26 damage - the Clan build spent

• 3 less tons
  
• 2 less slots
  
• Only needed 2 hardpoints instead of 3
  
• got an extra 150m range

... all for the measly cost of 0.12s burn time.



The Clan build is still completely superior, and can start adding CERMLAS to skew the tonnage/damage ratio even more massively in their favor.



Until Clan players become willing to look at the actual math in comparisons, they make themselves irrelevant in balance dicsussions.


I'm extremely confident that the Devs are looking at the math the same way I am, that's why so many of these comparisons can be made in the first place, many values have been purposefully normalized..

It's a good thing there's no mechs with Large Laser or ER Large Laser quirks.

Clans are running ER Larges, not Large Lasers, so lets compare those.

70+ IS mechs are firing ER Large Lasers at longer range, shorter beam durations.
Very many with much less heat, and/or even shorter beam durations.

You can't compare raw stats anymore. Quirks matter, just as much as how many clan mechs lack Endosteel (and thus lose several tons of pod space uselessly, making their weapons effectively heavier).

Not saying Clans are hard done by here, but it's a much more complex comparison than you like to make it look.

[WarHippy]

Wintersdark, on 17 February 2015 - 10:00 AM, said:

We'll see in an hour or two, I guess. Presumably, it'll stay in place. Certainly hasn't been complaints about it.

Yeah, I guess, but its things like this I really wish they would give us some heads up on. Gets rather frustrating being in a constant state of limbo.

[Wintersdark]

WarHippy, on 17 February 2015 - 10:39 AM, said:

Yeah, I guess, but its things like this I really wish they would give us some heads up on. Gets rather frustrating being in a constant state of limbo.

It's only four days. A confirmation post isn't really necessary in this case.

Also - it's over a weekend, and the patch notes will be available on the first business day back (today) - a post today would be really redundant.

Edited by Wintersdark, 17 February 2015 - 10:42 AM.

[Gas Guzzler]

Wintersdark, on 17 February 2015 - 10:36 AM, said:

It's a good thing there's no mechs with Large Laser or ER Large Laser quirks.

Clans are running ER Larges, not Large Lasers, so lets compare those.

70+ IS mechs are firing ER Large Lasers at longer range, shorter beam durations.
Very many with much less heat, and/or even shorter beam durations.

You can't compare raw stats anymore. Quirks matter, just as much as how many clan mechs lack Endosteel (and thus lose several tons of pod space uselessly, making their weapons effectively heavier).

Not saying Clans are hard done by here, but it's a much more complex comparison than you like to make it look.

Obviously if some sweeping changes are made quirk adjustments will be made. It goes back to the whole "viable weapon as a whole" vs "viable weapon on certain chassis" thing. Like ER PPCs on TDR-9S's.

[Wintersdark]

Gas Guzzler, on 17 February 2015 - 10:43 AM, said:

Obviously if some sweeping changes are made quirk adjustments will be made. It goes back to the whole "viable weapon as a whole" vs "viable weapon on certain chassis" thing. Like ER PPCs on TDR-9S's.

Indeed. But we have the game we have.

Complaints that the IS is so disadvantaged vs. Awesome Clan Weapons are highly disingenuous, given quirks. Sure, only certain mechs are amazing with certain weapons, but more than 70 IS mechs have at least generic Energy buffs that apply to (ER) Large Lasers, so it's almost every single IS mech sporting (ER)LL's that have higher than "stock" weapon stats.

Again, I'm not arguing that Clans are UP here, just that this discussion is not so simply as comparing stock weapon stats.

You end up with a similar situation as Clans have, where a couple Clan mechs can utilize light weight clan weapons effectively (those with ES/FF) while the others may get light weapons, but they also have a flat tonnage penalty for not having ES/FF, which basically wastes the tonnage benefit. In short: Only a couple Clan mechs can use those weapons efficiently, just like only a couple IS mechs get crazy stat buffs.

And while ERPPC's are certainly a valid point (for both IS an Clan) as stock ERPPC's are trash, LL's and ERLL's, IS and Clan, are all very decent weapons all around, particularly considering how basically every single IS mech with energy hardpoints has at least generic energy buffs affecting (ER)LL's.

[WarHippy]

Wintersdark, on 17 February 2015 - 10:42 AM, said:

It's only four days. A confirmation post isn't really necessary in this case.

Also - it's over a weekend, and the patch notes will be available on the first business day back (today) - a post today would be really redundant.

Eh, I suppose, but I'm sure they knew what they were going to be doing yesterday and it really would not have been any kind of real effort on their part to update the post yesterday saying that they either have the info they needed or are wanting to continue the testing a little longer and here is what they are doing. Things like this also often get forgotten in the patch notes so I wouldn't be surprised if there is no mention at all.

Edited by WarHippy, 17 February 2015 - 10:54 AM.

[Insidious Johnson]

Paul still has a job?

[Kain Demos]

Ultimatum X, on 17 February 2015 - 10:19 AM, said:

3x IS LLAS w/ GH
15 Tons
24.5 Heat
27 Damage
450m Range


2x CLPL
12 Tons
20 Heat
26 Damage
600m range


If we remove GH from the LLAS, the heat drops down to 21 heat fo 27 damage vs. 20 heat vs. 26 damage - the Clan build spent

• 3 less tons
  
• 2 less slots
  
• Only needed 2 hardpoints instead of 3
  
• got an extra 150m range

... all for the measly cost of 0.12s burn time.



The Clan build is still completely superior, and can start adding CERMLAS to skew the tonnage/damage ratio even more massively in their favor.



Until Clan players become willing to look at the actual math in comparisons, they make themselves irrelevant in balance dicsussions.


I'm extremely confident that the Devs are looking at the math the same way I am, that's why so many of these comparisons can be made in the first place, many values have been purposefully normalized..

So you take the worst of the 3 IS "large" lasers and compare it to the best Clan one, propaganda 101.

Large Pulse vs Large Pulse D/H IS wins by far. Effective DPS is much better by far because the duration is so short (even on 'mechs without quirks) it might as well be PPFLD. The only advantage the Clan version has which admittedly on an unquirked 'mech is massive, is range.

I also would not be so quick to trust the math on the part of the developers either. Remember when the pulse lasers got adjusted in November? That little spread sheet they posted had blatantly false DPS and HPS numbers because they did not even factor in burn times.