140 replies to this topic

[Ultimax]

Gas Guzzler, on 14 February 2015 - 03:07 AM, said:

As a result of a conversation on twitter I began to compare to loadouts, one is IS and one is Clan. They both consist of 6 lasers.

On one hand, we have 6 IS Large Lasers, with the following specs

54 damage
450 m Range
30 tons
1 second duration
72 Heat (42 w/o Heat Scale)

On the other hand, we have 4 cER Medium Lasers and 2 cLP Lasers

54 Damage
400m/600m range
16 tons
1.12-.15 second duration
44 Heat


What do you guys thing about this?

I think I won a tiny victory, thanks for posting this.

Screech, on 14 February 2015 - 10:13 AM, said:

How can you compare laser when you intentionally cripple one with ghost heat? Also laser vomit is a symptom of clan AC's being bad nothing else.

Please don't say this, you lose credibility in balance discussions if you say this.

Clan Lasers are amazing, that's why they are so popular.

[Tahribator]

It shows that the IS side has no counterpart for the monster that is called the C-ERML. They are essentially IS LLs at lower heat, 20% the tonnage and almost the same heat. They are NOT the counterpart to IS-MLs, these things are more similar to IS-LLs. Because of this, the typical Clan laser vomit can not be properly reproduced on the IS side.

When you allow boating up to 6 of them and especially when combined with C-LPL and the Gauss, they become ridiculous. This is not a popular opinion, but IMO either their ghost heat limit should be reduced (RIP Nova) or they should be nerfed in another way (duration, range etc).

Upping the GH limit on IS LL/LPL was a good first step in achieving parity.

The closest you can get to the Clan laser vomits are by utilizing the Banshee(Wubshee) and the Battlemaster(4xML+2xLPL on the 1G and 4xMPL+2xLPL on the 3S). The Battlemaster will need an XL to achieve parity, and the Banshee is a freaking 95 ton Assault. IS meds and heavies can't even dream to get close to a laser vomit Stormcrow or a Timber/Hellbringer.

Edited by Tahribator, 14 February 2015 - 10:28 AM.

[LordKnightFandragon]

Screech, on 14 February 2015 - 10:13 AM, said:

How can you compare laser when you intentionally cripple one with ghost heat? Also laser vomit is a symptom of clan AC's being bad nothing else.

And the meta, and the game play style of as much damage as much as you can as long as you can.....cannons eventually run out of ammo, no need to worry with lasers.

[Gas Guzzler]

Tahribator, on 14 February 2015 - 10:23 AM, said:

It shows that the IS side has no counterpart for the monster that is called the C-ERML. They are essentially IS LLs at lower heat, 20% the tonnage and almost the same heat. They are NOT the counterpart to IS-MLs, these things are more similar to IS-LLs. Because of this, the typical Clan laser vomit can not be properly reproduced on the IS side.

When you allow boating up to 6 of them and especially when combined with C-LPL and the Gauss, they become ridiculous. This is not a popular opinion, but IMO either their ghost heat limit should be reduced (RIP Nova) or they should be nerfed in another way (duration, range etc).

Upping the GH limit on IS LL/LPL was a good first step in achieving parity.

I would just increase the heat scale threshold on IS Large Lasers (not sure about ERs and Pulses) to above 6 so the IS does have some sort of laser vomit to bring to the table. Obviously the mechs that can field 6 of them are few and far between..

[Johnny Z]

Gas Guzzler, on 14 February 2015 - 03:07 AM, said:

As a result of a conversation on twitter I began to compare to loadouts, one is IS and one is Clan. They both consist of 6 lasers.

On one hand, we have 6 IS Large Lasers, with the following specs

54 damage
450 m Range
30 tons
1 second duration
72 Heat (42 w/o Heat Scale)

On the other hand, we have 4 cER Medium Lasers and 2 cLP Lasers

54 Damage
400m/600m range
16 tons
1.12-.15 second duration
44 Heat


What do you guys thing about this?

Nothing new here. Waiting for the Clan replies on how Omni mechs are not easy mode and that in some ways IS mechs are better. HAHA

How about the "Its not the mech, its the pilot..."

Or "Teamwork is OP"

Edited by Johnny Z, 14 February 2015 - 10:45 AM.

[Mcgral18]

Johnny Z, on 14 February 2015 - 10:43 AM, said:

Nothing new here. Waiting for the Clan replies on how Omni mechs are not easy mode and that in some ways IS mechs are better. HAHA

How about the "Its not the mech, its the pilot..."

Or "Teamwork is OP"

Some are significantly better. Just not the trinity. So, of course, blanket nerf all the bad robots.

It's the only way. Bads will be Bad no matter what mech they take, of course.

[Water Bear]

Lily from animove, on 14 February 2015 - 03:41 AM, said:

is lpl ftw.



after the quirkening I guess this is not even possible anymore because now the quirks would create some op loadouts again if you can spam 3 wuirked LL

and CERML CESL link, well if we ever get the SCR with 5E arm, then we sit on a op crow again. 10 lasers + some M's woah -.-

1) IS LPL suffers from ghost heat so those numbers are no longer valid after you put 3 on.
2) Clan weapons have significantly higher D/W numbers. Add a heat sink or two.
3) OP did some calculations with ghost heat to demonstrate the jaw-dropping superiority of clan lasers. It's kind of hard to argue with.

Edited by Water Bear, 14 February 2015 - 10:56 AM.

[PerfectDuck]

I still remember the first time I broke 1500 damage was in a stormcrow with 7 lasers. Then Clan Invasion initially rolled out, they were so overpowered it was ridiculous, and even then there were defenders shouting that the longer duration makes it all balanced perfectly. The C-ERML was since adjusted to incur more heat and the range was chopped by 10% from 450 to 405. Still, I would happily take one C-ERML and 4 heat sinks over an inner sphere large laser.

[Gas Guzzler]

Mcgral18, on 14 February 2015 - 10:52 AM, said:

Some are significantly better. Just not the trinity. So, of course, blanket nerf all the bad robots.

It's the only way. Bads will be Bad no matter what mech they take, of course.

Just to clarify, not looking for blanket clan nerfs, just saying that maybe IS Large Lasers don't need ghost heat at all. Or at least not until after 6 lasers or so.

[zagibu]

Gas Guzzler, on 14 February 2015 - 11:02 AM, said:

Just to clarify, not looking for blanket clan nerfs, just saying that maybe IS Large Lasers don't need ghost heat at all. Or at least not until after 6 lasers or so.

Please, we don't need more laser vomit.

If they ever allow crosstech, half the weapon arsenal will become obsolete, because nobody will ever use clan ACs anymore, or IS lasers and SRMs.

[Mordin Ashe]

Make Clan ballistics not suck and I will be running them exclusively. Right now though, lasers are the only thing I can use to kill reliably...

[Johnny Z]

zagibu, on 14 February 2015 - 11:07 AM, said:

Please, we don't need more laser vomit.

If they ever allow crosstech, half the weapon arsenal will become obsolete, because nobody will ever use clan ACs anymore, or IS lasers and SRMs.

Ya i have heard how clan lasers run hotter and also how clan Ac's which weigh less, do more damage, have longer range, and take up less slots are worse than IS AC's. Heard these arguements like 100 times.

[Mcgral18]

Johnny Z, on 14 February 2015 - 11:11 AM, said:

Ya i have heard how clan lasers run hotter and also how clan Ac's which weigh less, do more damage, have longer range, and take up less slots are worse than IS AC's. Heard these arguements like 100 times.

And yet, they are worse than IS ones.

You are aware of that fact? Or are you blissfully ignorant of that fact?

Edited by Mcgral18, 14 February 2015 - 11:15 AM.

[Koniks]

Yosharian, on 14 February 2015 - 03:34 AM, said:

Uh since when?

You realize the most popular IS laser mechs, the FS9-S, FS9-A, WVR-6R, and TDR-5SS, all have pretty heavy laser quirks, right? They weren't terribly useful against the Clans (or other I.S. mechs) before that.

[Metus regem]

Johnny Z, on 14 February 2015 - 11:11 AM, said:

Ya i have heard how clan lasers run hotter and also how clan Ac's which weigh less, do more damage, have longer range, and take up less slots are worse than IS AC's. Heard these arguements like 100 times.

But the cUAC's and cLB-X families do the same damage if all rounds hit the same spot as the IS versions of those guns

[Johnny Z]

Mcgral18, on 14 February 2015 - 11:12 AM, said:

And yet, they are worse than IS ones.

You are aware of that fact? Or are you blissfully ignorant of that fact?

I hope they trade the AC's. Maybe they will in the name of balance.

Metus regem, on 14 February 2015 - 11:17 AM, said:

But the cUAC's and cLB-X families do the same damage if all rounds hit the same spot as the IS versions of those guns

See wrong again. If all rounds hit the same spot they do more damage. If all rounds dont hit the same spot, they still do more damage. If its at extreme range Clan Ac's do damage and the IS ac's do no damage at all. Its like clan players somehow think the clan PPC and IS PPC do the same damage. They dont. IS PPC does 10 damage, Clan PPC does 15 damage.

Edited by Johnny Z, 14 February 2015 - 11:23 AM.

[Screech]

Ultimatum X, on 14 February 2015 - 10:21 AM, said:

Please don't say this, you lose credibility in balance discussions if you say this.

Clan Lasers are amazing, that's why they are so popular.

They are popular because the alternative is lacking it really isn't that hard. Or are you going to tell me that clan lasers would be as pervasive if clan ACs acted like IS ones? You get bonus points if you can keep a straight face.

[Mcgral18]

Johnny Z, on 14 February 2015 - 11:19 AM, said:

See wrong again. If all rounds hit the same spot they do more damage. If all rounds dont hit the same spot, they still do more damage. If its at extreme range Clan Ac's do damage and the IS ac's do no damage at all. Its like clan players somehow think the clan PPC and IS PPC do the same damage. They dont. IS PPC does 10 damage, Clan PPC does 15 damage.

Unless you hit a leg or an arm, which will only deal 12.5


Wrong again. You're really slacking today.

[Metus regem]

Johnny Z, on 14 February 2015 - 11:19 AM, said:

I hope they trade the AC's. Maybe they will in the name of balance.


See wrong again. If all rounds hit the same spot they do more damage. If all rounds dont hit the same spot, they still do more damage. If its at extreme range Clan Ac's do damage and the IS ac's do no damage at all. Its like clan players somehow think the clan PPC and IS PPC do the same damage. They dont. IS PPC does 10 damage, Clan PPC does 15 damage.

A cUAC 5, fires 3 1.66 damage pellets, if all three hit, that is 5 damage, an IS UAC 5 fires 1 5 damage round, if it hits, that's 5 damage.

The cERPPC does 2.5/10/2.5 the 10 being the spot that the weapon hit, and if you hit an arm or leg, you will lose damage from that split. So yes it does "15" in theory, but its not all the damage to one spot. As with most clan pilots either adapt to using DoT kit, or they go IS and use FLD weapons.

[Lily from animove]

Metus regem, on 14 February 2015 - 05:30 AM, said:

Lilly, just wait for the IS ERML, and see how many just stick with the ISML over it. In MWO range is meaningless, most engagements happen at sub 200m anyways...

is erml will depend on their heatefficiency. if they get the same value as clans, well is will complain about how bad their er variants are.

Ultimatum X, on 14 February 2015 - 10:21 AM, said:

I think I won a tiny victory, thanks for posting this.




Please don't say this, you lose credibility in balance discussions if you say this.

Clan Lasers are amazing, that's why they are so popular.

they are popular because missiles are spreaddamage and clan UAC's are also bad spreaddamage, and because clanners cna not use IS lasers, otherwise many clanlasers would not be used.

Gas Guzzler, on 14 February 2015 - 10:02 AM, said:

So what advantages does the IS Large Laser loadout offer over the clan laser vomit build? Frankly there should be some advantage with such a weight (and slot) disparity, but all I see is a huge disadvantage with ghost heat. So, why keep ghost heat for 6 large lasers when clan mechs can have a loadout that performs virtually the same but avoids ghost heat?

HEAT EFFICIENCY:

kapusta11, on 14 February 2015 - 03:24 AM, said:

Everything you need to know about laser vomit:

great everything just tells you here perfectly: 4MPL + 2 LPL is the perfect combination, because extremely heat efficient. because heat s a limited ressource and it is the most important thing to make as mouch damage out of your limited ressource as possible. fear the day ohne TBR's come with this kind of loadout, and this kind of burn time.


But as long as the IS players don't undertsand the heat effiiency and what it means, they stick with their weird wrong way to build mechs. and a this point we have not even spoken abour quirked mechs.