140 replies to this topic

[Johnny Z]

Metus regem, on 14 February 2015 - 11:35 AM, said:

A cUAC 5, fires 3 1.66 damage pellets, if all three hit, that is 5 damage, an IS UAC 5 fires 1 5 damage round, if it hits, that's 5 damage.

The cERPPC does 2.5/10/2.5 the 10 being the spot that the weapon hit, and if you hit an arm or leg, you will lose damage from that split. So yes it does "15" in theory, but its not all the damage to one spot. As with most clan pilots either adapt to using DoT kit, or they go IS and use FLD weapons.

If clan ac's and is ac's do the same damage, then I stand corrected.

[Koniks]

If the heat scale isn't going to be reworked, something else has to happen to reduce the size and frequency of alpha strikes. Powercreep is out of hand and it's only going to get worse if the timeline advances.

Either cooldowns need to be increased, damage needs to be reduced, or both on almost every weapon system. Then adjust things like beam duration and heat to make sense. Change ballistic velocities and maybe restore the 3x range to increase the skill floor for them. But overall improve the utility of DOT and heat management over burst damage.

Then requirk mechs to give them a unique feel by quirking armor, structure, movement, and weapon values.

Edited by Mizeur, 14 February 2015 - 11:47 AM.

[Mcgral18]

Johnny Z, on 14 February 2015 - 11:43 AM, said:

If clan ac's and is ac's do the same damage, then I stand corrected.

Seriously....you didn't know this? You know they also have the same ammo per ton?


I thought you were just using the UAC argument, aside from the 5.

[Koniks]

Mcgral18, on 14 February 2015 - 11:48 AM, said:

Seriously....you didn't know this? You know they also have the same ammo per ton?


I thought you were just using the UAC argument, aside from the 5.

Taking a TC increases their crit rate, so that's some added max. possible damage to structure. It's harder to land full damage on moving mechs with the projectiles compared to the IS. But don't the multiple projectiles also increase their crit chances and potential max damage?

Edited by Mizeur, 14 February 2015 - 11:54 AM.

[Metus regem]

Johnny Z, on 14 February 2015 - 11:43 AM, said:

If clan ac's and is ac's do the same damage, then I stand corrected.

cUAC 2 -- 2x1dmg pellets
cUAC 5 -- 3x1.66 DMG pellets
cUAC 10 -- 4x2.5dmg pellets
cUAC 20 -- 5x4dmg pellets

That is why most people call the cUAC's trash, they need you to have all the pellets land to do full damage, but they spread the damage all over the target like lasers do.

Mizeur, on 14 February 2015 - 11:54 AM, said:

Taking a TC increases their crit rate, so that's some added max. possible damage to structure. It's harder to land full damage on moving mechs with the projectiles compared to the IS. But don't the multiple projectiles also increase their crit chances and potential max damage?

Nope, no extra crit chance, no chance at extra damage, though the TC, an extra price of kit increases crit chance and round speed, but again, that is taking another piece of kit, in most crit starved omni's

[kapusta11]

Lily from animove, on 14 February 2015 - 11:43 AM, said:

great everything just tells you here perfectly: 4MPL + 2 LPL is the perfect combination, because extremely heat efficient. because heat s a limited ressource and it is the most important thing to make as mouch damage out of your limited ressource as possible. fear the day ohne TBR's come with this kind of loadout, and this kind of burn time.


But as long as the IS players don't undertsand the heat effiiency and what it means, they stick with their weird wrong way to build mechs. and a this point we have not even spoken abour quirked mechs.

You only see the pros and ignore almost 2x higher weight and 2x shorter range. As for burn duration, firing at slow IS mechs with Clan lasers is the same thing as firing at fast moving clan mech with IS pulse lasers. All what's left is indeed better heat efficiency but it correlates directly with the amount of heatsinks you can carry for both IS and Clans.

How many IS mechs have enough energy hardpoints, can dedicate 22 tons for weapons and have decent speed to operate in 260m ranges while carrying STD engine and how many heatsinks can they fit after that? TDR and Banshee are indeed decent, aside from the fact that they have a size of a barn door.

Meanwhile, 6xMPL Stormcrow, a medium mech that moves at the speed of 107 kph, can rival that loadout with only 0.18 sec longer burn time, slightly better range and 20 DHSs which is enough compensation for a whopping 15% worse heat efficiency.

Edited by kapusta11, 14 February 2015 - 12:22 PM.

[Lily from animove]

kapusta11, on 14 February 2015 - 12:03 PM, said:

You only see the pros and ignore almost 2x higher weight and 2x shorter range. As for burn duration, firing at slow IS mechs with Clan lasers is the same thing as firing at fast moving clan mech with IS pulse lasers. All what's left is indeed better heat efficiency but it correlates directly with the amount of heatsinks you can carry for both IS and Clans.

How many IS mechs have enough energy hardpoints, can dedicate 22 tons for weapons and have decent speed to operate in 260m ranges while carrying STD engine and how many heatsinks can they fit after that? TDR and Banshee are indeed decent, aside from the fact that they have a size of a barn door.

Meanwhile, 6xMPL Stormcrow can rival that loadout with only 0.18 sec longer burn time, slightly better range and 20 DHSs which is enough compensation for 15% worse heat efficiency.

No I do not ignore this, but when you create a mech and build it, you have to use the strenght, all you IS players use the logic of C lasers being better, which thy are not, They are different clanlasers are heat inefficient clanbuilds overheat before they cna kill most emchs, while an IS mech cann kill a clanmech before it overheats. Is lasers have their very own advantages and tbh they are better, if you know how to play those strenght. We don't have MW3 maps where evrythign is a plain long open, we have rather small maps with laods of cover everywhere and its not hard getting into close range.

Don't take the doomcrow as an example doomcrow is OP by what it is as a mech, if IS would have such a mech shaped like this, ouch bb clanners. Nova is the second worse mech across the field, yet it can carry the amount of lasers it likes, but why is it that bad? nit's not related to the weapons itself.

Edited by Lily from animove, 14 February 2015 - 12:20 PM.

[Mcgral18]

Mizeur, on 14 February 2015 - 11:54 AM, said:

Taking a TC increases their crit rate, so that's some added max. possible damage to structure. It's harder to land full damage on moving mechs with the projectiles compared to the IS. But don't the multiple projectiles also increase their crit chances and potential max damage?

Aside from the increased 1 crit%, no.

Actually worse for critting.

Let's assume 2 crits?

isAC5 deals 5 IS damage, then 10 Crit damage. 15% of 10 is 1.5, so a total of 6.5 damage. There's a 17% chance to get 2 crits.

The cAC deals ~1.67 damage per pellet, each of those requiring that same 17% crit rate to deal the same crit damage. The TC does increase the 1 crit rate, but not the two or three. I guess that makes this a bias example?

Anyhow, 1.67*2 is 3.33 crit damage, 15% of that is 0.5 damage. So, if all three get 2 crits, that's 1.5 crit damage, totalling 6.5 damage. If they all hit, if they all crit.

A TC1 will increase the 1 crit chance from 25% to 32.25%, which would help, but still be significantly less efficient than an IS AC, which deals all the damage to a single crit slot, while the cAC can spread the damage across multiple crit slots.

[Ultimax]

So many people in this thread have missed the forest for the trees.


THIRTY TONS of LLAS compares to SIXTEEN TONS of Laser Vomit.

The only thing that is being asked is that those THIRTY TONS of Lasers don't also have Ghost Heat on top of already sucking in a tonnage comparison.


There is no way you can deny this without just looking like a complete shill.

[Lily from animove]

Mcgral18, on 14 February 2015 - 12:20 PM, said:

Aside from the increased 1 crit%, no.

Actually worse for critting.

Let's assume 2 crits?

isAC5 deals 5 IS damage, then 10 Crit damage. 15% of 10 is 1.5, so a total of 6.5 damage. There's a 17% chance to get 2 crits.

The cAC deals ~1.67 damage per pellet, each of those requiring that same 17% crit rate to deal the same crit damage. The TC does increase the 1 crit rate, but not the two or three. I guess that makes this a bias example?

Anyhow, 1.67*2 is 3.33 crit damage, 15% of that is 0.5 damage. So, if all three get 2 crits, that's 1.5 crit damage, totalling 6.5 damage. If they all hit, if they all crit.

A TC1 will increase the 1 crit chance from 25% to 32.25%, which would help, but still be significantly less efficient than an IS AC, which deals all the damage to a single crit slot, while the cAC can spread the damage across multiple crit slots.

further more a crit of an AC 5 of the IS, will definately blow up a 10hp component, while it is not sure that even 3x an CUAC5 crit will blow one up, because it ahs the chance to spread that damage across various components.

Edited by Lily from animove, 14 February 2015 - 12:45 PM.

[Aresye]

Ultimatum X, on 14 February 2015 - 12:36 PM, said:

So many people in this thread have missed the forest for the trees.


THIRTY TONS of LLAS compares to SIXTEEN TONS of Laser Vomit.

The only thing that is being asked is that those THIRTY TONS of Lasers don't also have Ghost Heat on top of already sucking in a tonnage comparison.


There is no way you can deny this without just looking like a complete shill.

If we took out ghost heat then technically the IS laser vomit would deal the same damage for less heat, longer range, and shorter duration, on a mech (I'm assuming stalker) with considerably high hard points.

[Bishop Steiner]

Aresye, on 14 February 2015 - 12:47 PM, said:

If we took out ghost heat then technically the IS laser vomit would deal the same damage for less heat, longer range, and shorter duration, on a mech (I'm assuming stalker) with considerably high hard points.

Oh dear.... please don't get him started.....

[kapusta11]

Lily from animove, on 14 February 2015 - 12:19 PM, said:

No I do not ignore this, but when you create a mech and build it, you have to use the strenght, all you IS players use the logic of C lasers being better, which thy are not, They are different clanlasers are heat inefficient clanbuilds overheat before they cna kill most emchs, while an IS mech cann kill a clanmech before it overheats. Is lasers have their very own advantages and tbh they are better, if you know how to play those strenght. We don't have MW3 maps where evrythign is a plain long open, we have rather small maps with laods of cover everywhere and its not hard getting into close range.

Don't take the doomcrow as an example doomcrow is OP by what it is as a mech, if IS would have such a mech shaped like this, ouch bb clanners. Nova is the second worse mech across the field, yet it can carry the amount of lasers it likes, but why is it that bad? nit's not related to the weapons itself.

Same old shіt, won't even comment.

Nova is a victim of:

• really poor geometry
  
• locked equipment

The former issue affects both sides and can be fixed with armor/internal structure quirks but if not for the latter it could've carry 6xMPL, 20 DHS, XL275 and keep 5xJJs. It also affects Summoner, it could carry 2xGauss in those high mounted hardpoints and everyone would be crying about how OP Clan Gauss and Summoner itself is. But noo, Clan tech is fine, locked equipment doesn't mean shіt, it's the "Holy Trinity", and probably half of the mechs from 3058 TRO, and maybe Clan BattleMechs, yeah.

Edited by kapusta11, 14 February 2015 - 12:55 PM.

[Ultimax]

Aresye, on 14 February 2015 - 12:47 PM, said:

If we took out ghost heat then technically the IS laser vomit would deal the same damage for less heat, longer range, and shorter duration, on a mech (I'm assuming stalker) with considerably high hard points.

Put up your example builds.

And if it did the same damage for less heat but at DOUBLE the tonnage, I'm going to call that "fair".

[Lily from animove]

Aresye, on 14 February 2015 - 12:47 PM, said:

If we took out ghost heat then technically the IS laser vomit would deal the same damage for less heat, longer range, and shorter duration, on a mech (I'm assuming stalker) with considerably high hard points.

i'd buy jeagers, catas and stalkers and troll the entire pugland with this xD


No ****. I really would do.

Ultimatum X, on 14 February 2015 - 12:53 PM, said:

Put up your example builds.

And if it did the same damage for less heat but at DOUBLE the tonnage, I'm going to call that "fair".

will you one day realise that pure damage numbers mena nothing? a stalker or jeager will simply expose enarly nothing and shoot at someone else whi will porbably not even be able to shoot back woth lower hardpoints. weapons are more than their raw numbers. A mech is the whole of what it is, his tonnage, his bloadouts, his hardpoints and everything. IS has superior heat efficient emchs and has superior hardpointed mechs as well, use this or not is the differnec ein how IS performance, but as long as I see energystalkers standing in th open pretentding to be turrets or XL-lrm onyl stalkers run around in the open, yeah IS sucks.

Edited by Lily from animove, 14 February 2015 - 01:08 PM.

[Koniks]

Metus regem, on 14 February 2015 - 11:58 AM, said:

cUAC 2 -- 2x1dmg pellets
cUAC 5 -- 3x1.66 DMG pellets
cUAC 10 -- 4x2.5dmg pellets
cUAC 20 -- 5x4dmg pellets

That is why most people call the cUAC's trash, they need you to have all the pellets land to do full damage, but they spread the damage all over the target like lasers do.



Nope, no extra crit chance, no chance at extra damage, though the TC, an extra price of kit increases crit chance and round speed, but again, that is taking another piece of kit, in most crit starved omni's

Right, the TC increases the crit chance. But each projectile counts as a separate crit roll, no? That's why LBXs and pulse lasers have a higher crit rate over IS ACs and regular lasers.

[Lily from animove]

Mizeur, on 14 February 2015 - 01:09 PM, said:

Right, the TC increases the crit chance. But each projectile counts as a separate crit roll, no? That's why LBXs and pulse lasers have a higher crit rate over IS ACs and regular lasers.

afaik, lbx's got a hardcoded higher critchance to compensate for the spread they have.

[Yokaiko]

Lily from animove, on 14 February 2015 - 01:12 PM, said:

afaik, lbx's got a hardcoded higher critchance to compensate for the spread they have.

and TCs don't affect them, at all.

[Koniks]

Yokaiko, on 14 February 2015 - 01:19 PM, said:

and TCs don't affect them, at all.

TCs do affect ACs and UACs.

What I'm asking is whether each projectile triggers a separate crit roll. Seems like it has to on weapons that spread damage.

So an IS AC/5 would give you 1 roll against its crit chance. A C-AC5 would give you 5 rolls. An LB-10X would give you 10.

And because the pulse lasers have more ticks that do damage, they have more rolls compared to the standard versions.

[Yokaiko]

Mizeur, on 14 February 2015 - 01:22 PM, said:

TCs do affect ACs and UACs.

What I'm asking is whether each projectile triggers a separate crit roll. Seems like it has to on weapons that spread damage.

Possibly, it would make sense, but then PGI

Mizeur, on 14 February 2015 - 01:22 PM, said:

So an IS AC/5 would give you 1 roll against its crit chance. A C-AC5 would give you 5 rolls. An LB-10X would give you 10.

Yeah, ten IF you hit with all pellets, and if you are hitting against open sections.

Mizeur, on 14 February 2015 - 01:22 PM, said:

And because the pulse lasers have more ticks that do damage, they have more rolls compared to the standard versions.

Yeah, so?