140 replies to this topic

[Zoid]

Screech, on 14 February 2015 - 10:13 AM, said:

How can you compare laser when you intentionally cripple one with ghost heat? Also laser vomit is a symptom of clan AC's being bad nothing else.

Because being able to load up 42 damage at 450m or less for 6 tons and 6 critical slots is so bad you guys.

Clan autocannons are slightly worse than IS ones but clan lasers are just miles ahead of IS lasers. You know what the IS 'mechs with ridiculous laser quirks feel like? Clan 'mechs.

[Lily from animove]

Zoid, on 14 February 2015 - 01:33 PM, said:

Because being able to load up 42 damage at 450m or less for 6 tons and 6 critical slots is so bad you guys.

Clan autocannons are slightly worse than IS ones but clan lasers are just miles ahead of IS lasers. You know what the IS 'mechs with ridiculous laser quirks feel like? Clan 'mechs.

No is quirked mechs feel great because they get upgraded to clanniall run too hot.

[Koniks]

Yokaiko, on 14 February 2015 - 01:30 PM, said:

Possibly, it would make sense, but then PGI

Yeah, ten IF you hit with all pellets, and if you are hitting against open sections.

Yeah, so?

If that's the case, then C-ACs and C-UACs have potentially higher max damage than their IS counterparts because they can trigger more crits, even without the TC.

Edited by Mizeur, 14 February 2015 - 01:45 PM.

[Mcgral18]

Mizeur, on 14 February 2015 - 01:22 PM, said:

TCs do affect ACs and UACs.

What I'm asking is whether each projectile triggers a separate crit roll. Seems like it has to on weapons that spread damage.

So an IS AC/5 would give you 1 roll against its crit chance. A C-AC5 would give you 5 rolls. An LB-10X would give you 10.

And because the pulse lasers have more ticks that do damage, they have more rolls compared to the standard versions.

More rolls is worse. Pulse Lasers don't have more ticks, but their ticks deal more damage. This is the opposite. IS ACs deal more damage per crit, while the cACs deal smaller amounts of crit damage.


Yes, each round has it's own crit roll, no, they are not better for critting. Same potential, but they won't all hit the same spot, nor are they even likely to all crit.

Mizeur, on 14 February 2015 - 01:45 PM, said:

If that's the case, then C-ACs and C-UACs have potentially higher max damage than their IS counterparts because they can trigger more crits, even without the TC.

No, it's the same maximum amount of crit damage.

Mcgral18, on 14 February 2015 - 12:20 PM, said:

Aside from the increased 1 crit%, no.

Actually worse for critting.

Let's assume 2 crits?

isAC5 deals 5 IS damage, then 10 Crit damage. 15% of 10 is 1.5, so a total of 6.5 damage. There's a 17% chance to get 2 crits.

The cAC deals ~1.67 damage per pellet, each of those requiring that same 17% crit rate to deal the same crit damage. The TC does increase the 1 crit rate, but not the two or three. I guess that makes this a bias example?

Anyhow, 1.67*2 is 3.33 crit damage, 15% of that is 0.5 damage. So, if all three get 2 crits, that's 1.5 crit damage, totalling 6.5 damage. If they all hit, if they all crit.

A TC1 will increase the 1 crit chance from 25% to 32.25%, which would help, but still be significantly less efficient than an IS AC, which deals all the damage to a single crit slot, while the cAC can spread the damage across multiple crit slots.

[Bluttrunken]

Lily from animove, on 14 February 2015 - 04:12 AM, said:

wow, I wonder how all those AC 20 mechs work with their pitiful range. How about you just use your mech for the niche its designed? if they ever allow crosstech, then behold the clanners with IS LPL's or the 1ß+ clanners with IS medium lasers. 4 LPL finish their weapon fire without ghostheat nearly at the same time as a single clan LPL even burns. and so time to exposure, (which all you "clanlaser OP" screamers ignore) is superior.

heta efficiency is a keyfeature with lasers that is most important.

If crosstech will be allowed, all thise IS gamers thiking clantech is op will slam clan-ermeds and ershorts on their mechs and suddenly figure out how bad thy are because they are not heat efficient and spread a load more for this and so are not as efficient for killing anymore. But then they ocme with the next excuse why clanners are op for some reason.

I don't see a singular reason for taking IS Medium Lasers over Clan Medium Lasers. For almost all other Variants there are reasons why you might prefer the IS version but Medium Lasers? The beam duration? Easily made up for by 135! meters of additional range and the superior Damage to Heat Ratio. Basically that's what can be said about all Clan and IS Lasers. If you think Clan Lasers are not heat efficient enough boat less of them or make dedicated weapongroups for sustained dps/brawling.

IS Pulse Weapons are really nice for fast mechs, and that's why we see things like the OP FS9-A(and the removal of LPL quirks on several mechs, I miss them so much on my CN9-AL). But fast mediums&heavies which want to fit Pulse Lasers need XL's to be really viable. And a laser vomiting clan mech can pretty much one shot everything with an IS XL below Assault Level with a full beam on a Sidetorso.

Edited by k05h3lk1n, 14 February 2015 - 01:57 PM.

[Lily from animove]

k05h3lk1n, on 14 February 2015 - 01:55 PM, said:

I don't see a singular reason for taking IS Medium Lasers over Clan Medium Lasers. For almost all other Variants there are reasons why you might prefer the IS version but Medium Lasers? The beam duration? Easily made up for by 135! meters of additional range and the superior Damage to Heat Ratio. Basically that's what can be said about all Clan and IS Lasers. If you think Clan Lasers are not heat efficient enough boat less of them or make dedicated weapongroups for sustained dps/brawling.

IS Pulse Weapons are really nice for fast mechs, and that's why we see things like the OP FS9-A(and the removal of LPL quirks on several mechs, I miss them so much on my CN9-AL). But fast mediums&heavies which want to fit Pulse Lasers need XL's to be really viable. And a laser vomiting clan mech can pretty much one shot everything with an IS XL below Assault Level with a full beam on a Sidetorso.

HEAT EFFICIENCY is not heat management, more DHS and less lasers does not increase heatefficency. the same amount of cooling with IS meds will always be more heatefficient than those amount of lasers as CERmeds.

and you last sentence is just such nonsense that it hurts, and doesn't wants me to speak anymore with you, also: do you even twist bro?

Edited by Lily from animove, 14 February 2015 - 02:46 PM.

[Gas Guzzler]

Aresye, on 14 February 2015 - 12:47 PM, said:

If we took out ghost heat then technically the IS laser vomit would deal the same damage for less heat, longer range, and shorter duration, on a mech (I'm assuming stalker) with considerably high hard points.

Wow. So you are really going to argue that this is better than this?

I am just disgusted by that frankly. Yeah it has higher hardpoints. It also moves less than 60 kph, has less heat sinks because it cannot fit anymore, and is 10 tons heavier AND doesn't have jump jets. You are clearly bias if you are going to argue that.

The 2 more heat the TBR produces is easily offset by the ability to stuff so many heatsinks in. Range? 450 m vs 405m for the ER Mediums and 600 for the cLPLs? That sounds like a wash to me. And the .15 second duration reduction is not a big deal.. come on.. I am seeing some very miniscule disadvantages on the Timber Wolf side and a lot more advantages. Remember, we are talking 30 tons of lasers vs 16!

Just saying... I love the Timber Wolf, but there is no reason for the IS lasers to be gimped so hard.

Edited by Gas Guzzler, 14 February 2015 - 02:43 PM.

[Lily from animove]

Gas Guzzler, on 14 February 2015 - 02:42 PM, said:

Wow. So you are really going to argue that this is better than this?

I am just disgusted by that frankly. Yeah it has higher hardpoints. It also moves less than 60 kph, has less heat sinks because it cannot fit anymore, and is 10 tons heavier AND doesn't have jump jets. You are clearly bias if you are going to argue that.

The 2 more heat the TBR produces is easily offset by the ability to stuff so many heatsinks in. Range? 450 m vs 405m for the ER Mediums and 600 for the cLPLs? That sounds like a wash to me. And the .15 second duration reduction is not a big deal.. come on.. I am seeing some very miniscule disadvantages on the Timber Wolf side and a lot more advantages. Remember, we are talking 30 tons of lasers vs 16!

Just saying... I love the Timber Wolf, but there is no reason for the IS lasers to be gimped so hard.

and another glorious: how do I totally build nonsense in an IS mech.

A stalker is not a timberwolf by chassis, so do not try to build a mirror of a timberwolf. and yet if you play it right this cna beat a tbr, because positioning and such stuff.

Edited by Lily from animove, 14 February 2015 - 02:51 PM.

[Araevin Teshurr]

Clans get all the advantages, because their packs of mechs are cheaper than the IS garbage we were fed. Enough said.

[Gas Guzzler]

Lily from animove, on 14 February 2015 - 02:49 PM, said:

and another glorious: how do I totally build nonsense in an IS mech.

A stalker is not a timberwolf by chassis, so do not try to build a mirror of a timberwolf. and yet if you play it right this cna beat a tbr, because positioning and such stuff.

Lolwut?

Why is that a nonsense build?

And no, overall, the Timber Wolf is superior.

[Mcgral18]

Gas Guzzler, on 14 February 2015 - 02:42 PM, said:

Wow. So you are really going to argue that this is better than this?

I am just disgusted by that frankly. Yeah it has higher hardpoints. It also moves less than 60 kph, has less heat sinks because it cannot fit anymore, and is 10 tons heavier AND doesn't have jump jets. You are clearly bias if you are going to argue that.

The 2 more heat the TBR produces is easily offset by the ability to stuff so many heatsinks in. Range? 450 m vs 405m for the ER Mediums and 600 for the cLPLs? That sounds like a wash to me. And the .15 second duration reduction is not a big deal.. come on.. I am seeing some very miniscule disadvantages on the Timber Wolf side and a lot more advantages. Remember, we are talking 30 tons of lasers vs 16!

Just saying... I love the Timber Wolf, but there is no reason for the IS lasers to be gimped so hard.

That Stalker generates 5.6 heat per LL; less than each ERML. While also having better hardpoint locations, longer range and shorter burn times.

It wouldn't be a terrible comparison, no. How many heatsinks would it take to offset that heat? 6*5.6=33.6 heat.
20+24=44.

So, 10 heat means 7 heatsinks to match the difference in capacity, while it only mounts 4 extra heatsinks. Also has better hitboxes.


10 tons better? It's pretty close. Maybe after they fix the bunnyhopping. Also has a 540M range LL without the module.

Edited by Mcgral18, 14 February 2015 - 03:19 PM.

[Bluttrunken]

Lily from animove, on 14 February 2015 - 02:16 PM, said:

HEAT EFFICIENCY is not heat management, more DHS and less lasers does not increase heatefficency. the same amount of cooling with IS meds will always be more heatefficient than those amount of lasers as CERmeds.

and you last sentence is just such nonsense that it hurts, and doesn't wants me to speak anymore with you, also: do you even twist bro?

I shouldn't react to this but let me rephrase my statement: "If you are worried that Clan Lasers aren't heat efficient enough you should use them with more care or use less of them".

And yeah, a Clan mech boating a 40+ Laser-Alpha pops an IS XL in no time. A quick test on Forest Colony Testing Grounds with 6xCMPL(48 PP) gave everything, except for the Atlas and Awesome, at least an Orange Sidetorso with a single Alpha. Which isn't exactly one-shotting but as good as dead as one can be. Awesome was completely stripped of armor, Atlas had red armor after one alpha.

But just read whatever you like into what I wrote. After your awesome response I'll just let you think what you want to. Now go and meta-hump your clan-mechs some more, pro.

Edited by k05h3lk1n, 14 February 2015 - 03:20 PM.

[Gas Guzzler]

Mcgral18, on 14 February 2015 - 03:18 PM, said:

That Stalker generates 5.6 heat per LL; less than each ERML. While also having better hardpoint locations, longer range and shorter burn times.

It wouldn't be a terrible comparison, no. How many heatsinks would it take to offset that heat? 6*5.6=33.6 heat.
20+24=44.

So, 10 heat means 7 heatsinks to match the difference in capacity, while it only mounts 4 extra heatsinks. Also has better hitboxes.


10 tons better? It's pretty close. Maybe after they fix the bunnyhopping. Also has a 540M range LL without the module.

For the sake of my argument I was pretending it did not have quirks actually, as obviously quirks would need adjusting on a variety of mechs if something like heat scale was entirely removed from Large Lasers.

[Yokaiko]

Mizeur, on 14 February 2015 - 01:45 PM, said:

If that's the case, then C-ACs and C-UACs have potentially higher max damage than their IS counterparts because they can trigger more crits, even without the TC.

That is a huge assumption because everything has to hit, and I'll tell you now that isn't often the case.

[Mcgral18]

k05h3lk1n, on 14 February 2015 - 03:19 PM, said:

I shouldn't react to this but let me rephrase my statement: "If you are worried that Clan Lasers aren't heat efficient enough you should use them with more care or use less of them".

And yeah, a Clan mech boating a 40+ Laser-Alpha pops an IS XL in no time. A quick test on Forest Colony Testing Grounds with 6xCMPL(48 PP) gave everything, except for the Atlas and Awesome, at least an Orange Sidetorso with a single Alpha. Which isn't exactly one-shotting but as good as dead as one can be. Awesome was completely stripped of armor, Atlas had red armor after one alpha.

But just read whatever you like into what I wrote. After your awesome response I'll just let you think what you want to. Now go and meta-hump your clan-mechs some more, pro.

Stock mechs? Awesome has 40 rear armour stock.

[Bluttrunken]

Mcgral18, on 14 February 2015 - 03:31 PM, said:

Stock mechs? Awesome has 40 rear armour stock.

And 48 front armor on a side torso. So, yes, stock mechs.

Edited by k05h3lk1n, 14 February 2015 - 03:45 PM.

[Ace Selin]

Aresye, on 14 February 2015 - 12:47 PM, said:

If we took out ghost heat then technically the IS laser vomit would deal the same damage for less heat, longer range, and shorter duration, on a mech (I'm assuming stalker) with considerably high hard points.

But for double the weight carried and what a Clan mech can carry on a medium an IS assualt could only be comparable too.
Thats still not a great trade off for IS pilots, but better than the Ghost Heat shambles we need to deal with currently.
And Clans with XL engines are still at an advantage towards the end game (a broken side torso and Clan mechs keep spewing laser vomit, where most IS mechs have to carry XL engines to compete and by then those would be dead in a similar situation).

You really just pick the parts of the argument that suit you dont you, whilst ignoring common sense and realistic balance.

[Yokaiko]

Zoid, on 14 February 2015 - 01:33 PM, said:

Because being able to load up 42 damage at 450m or less for 6 tons and 6 critical slots is so bad you guys.

Clan autocannons are slightly worse than IS ones but clan lasers are just miles ahead of IS lasers. You know what the IS 'mechs with ridiculous laser quirks feel like? Clan 'mechs.

That er-mlas is 6 heat.......that is 6/7 of your llas.

[Ultimax]

Yokaiko, on 14 February 2015 - 04:47 PM, said:

That er-mlas is 6 heat.......that is 6/7 of your llas.

And the CERMLAS is 1/5th the tonnage.

4x CERMLAS vs. 3x LLAS w/ Ghost Heat - Do the math, and try to remember that weapon tonnage is a thing.

Edited by Ultimatum X, 14 February 2015 - 05:21 PM.

[J0anna]

Ultimatum X, on 14 February 2015 - 05:21 PM, said:

And the CERMLAS is 1/5th the tonnage.

4x CERMLAS vs. 3x LLAS w/ Ghost Heat - Do the math, and try to remember that weapon tonnage is a thing.

Yes it is, my VTR-9K runs a standard 300 (no xl problems here), 2xJJ, endo, and packs 34 tons of weapons and heat sinks with near maximum armor. My Gargoyle prime has the exact same armor, no JJ, 6 hardwired heatsinks and 20 tons available for weapons and (extra) heatsinks (since clan weapons are hotter), and goes a whole 23 km/h faster....Yes tonnage is "a thing".

And...oh look...if I ran a XL 300, I'd have 43.5 tons available for weapons and heatsinks - more than double the weapon tonnage for XL vulnerability....

Edited by Moenrg, 14 February 2015 - 05:49 PM.