140 replies to this topic

[Ultimax]

kapusta11, on 15 February 2015 - 12:10 AM, said:

You don't get it, "it's all about how you play it", lol.

The funny part is that Lily thought your post was serious, and not sarcasm.

[Deathlike]

Wow... how did I miss this thread?

Gas Guzzler, on 14 February 2015 - 03:07 AM, said:

As a result of a conversation on twitter I began to compare to loadouts, one is IS and one is Clan. They both consist of 6 lasers.

On one hand, we have 6 IS Large Lasers, with the following specs

54 damage
450 m Range
30 tons
1 second duration
72 Heat (42 w/o Heat Scale)

On the other hand, we have 4 cER Medium Lasers and 2 cLP Lasers

54 Damage
400m/600m range
16 tons
1.12-.15 second duration
44 Heat


What do you guys thing about this?

6LL Stalker (85-ton) vs "Classic Laservomit" Timberwolf (75-ton).

I had this argument way back when Clan weapon testing happened (back in June). There was a problem by design by making the CERMED being essentially superior to IS LL... I had forgotten this argument for a bit so... perhaps I should reevaluate my position.

I think the damage overbuffs are unnecessary... my first reaction was to literally lower CERMED damage in addition to increasing heat...

So... right now I'm a rush to something, so I'll have a more thoughtful response later... but these changes are what I think are necessary.

1) Remove Ghost heat from all IS lasers... period, end of story.

2) Reduce the IS ERLL duration increase back to the original number (or at least closer than it is now)... bump up heat a little if you have to (from 8 to 8.5).

3) Lower CERMED damage from 7 to some number between 5.5 and 6. Adjust heat down as necessary. CMPL would have to follow from 8 to some number between 6.6 and 7.

4) Lower CERSML damage from 5 to some number between 3.3 and 3.75. Adjust heat down as necessary. CSPL would have to follow from 6 to some number between 4.4 and 5. Adjust heat down as necessary.

5) Lower CERLL damage from 11 to some number between 10 (9.9) and 10.5. Adjust heat down as necessary. CLPL would have to follow from 13 to some number between 12.1 and 12.5. Adjust heat down as necessary.

Other adjustments may have to be made like duration and/or cooldown, but this is essentially a global nerf for Clan Energy and an indirect buff to IS Energy through the removal of ghost heat. This won't make Clan mechs better from the holy trinity but with the reduction on heat that would be associated with this, something like the Nova should be able to realistically carry more weapons instead of being held hostage to DHS and heat.

The buffs for the bad Clan mechs would have to lean more towards Energy Cooldown instead of Energy Heat Generation as a result.


I'm not saying this is better, but it would have to be a start.

Edited by Deathlike, 15 February 2015 - 09:45 AM.

[Ultimax]

Deathlike, on 15 February 2015 - 07:30 AM, said:

3) Lower CERMED damage from 7 to some number between 5.5 and 6. Adjust heat down as necessary. CMPL would have to follow from 8 to some number between 6.6 and 7.

4) Lower CERSML damage from 5 to some number between 3.3 and 3.75. Adjust heat down as necessary. CSPL would have to follow from 4 to some number between 4.4 and 5. Adjust heat down as necessary.

5) Lower CERLL damage from 11 to some number between 10 (9.9) and 10.5. Adjust heat down as necessary. CLPL would have to follow from 13 to some number between 12.1 and 12.5. Adjust heat down as necessary.

I agreed with pretty much everything else you said.

Here, I would be cautious.

Let's hope all the people who think I simply want clan nerfs can pull their heads out of their rear ends long enough to notice who is posting this.


Even though Clan Lasers are Superior, I am very cautious about further changes to those weapons.

This is due to the locked equipment issue that makes Clan mechs less flexible with their usable tonnage.

They rely on energy, specifically lasers - and the worse mechs would be hurt like this because Clan mechs in general received no hardpoint inflation (KFX, ADR, MLX, IFR, NVA, SMN).

Right now at least they can get away with "only" 4 energy hardpoints because that is at least 6 MLAS or 3 LLAS worth of firepower (ref: 4x CERMLAS)



So if those locked item restrictions were greatly loosened, I think this could be a conversation - but I'd be very hesitant to reduce the damage values without giving some compensation somewhere else.



I'd much rather see a penalty to extreme boating that is only possible due to the Omni-pod system.

Perhaps the Mr. Potato head omni-pod system could give positive quirks for less than optimal omni-pod configs, and negative quirks if you combine (or perhaps actually slot weapons into) pods that create nightmarish balance issues like 6+ energy weapons or 5+ ballistics or perhaps total number of hardpoints used (6 CERMLAS + 3 SRM 6s etc)

Obviously mechs like the Nova would be exempt from that penalty as they are designed for that load out and that could help allow a 12E Nova Load be superior to trying to do a similar thing on the SCR.


I admit it's not a fully fleshed out idea, and it's not easy or straightforward. It needs work.

Edited by Ultimatum X, 15 February 2015 - 07:45 AM.

[Vassago Rain]

The issue is that PGI went for obviously OP clantech, then claimed there was totally parity between them.

Now we have some quirk bandaids to entice people into playing IS, but they're not enough, and as we've seen, the quirk fairy gives and takes, rendering the IS mechs uncertain investments, while clan is always the better choice.

[NineTails]

The IS LL was always bad. Bad in TT, bad in MWO.

[Gas Guzzler]

FYI, a .15 second shorter burn time and 28 MORE heat is not worth going from 16 tons to 30 tons. It is NOT harder to hold on target for another 0.15 seconds. The bias from some of you clanners is just shameful lol

[FupDup]

Deathlike, on 15 February 2015 - 07:30 AM, said:

-snip-

4) Lower CERSML damage from 5 to some number between 3.3 and 3.75. Adjust heat down as necessary. CSPL would have to follow from 4 to some number between 4.4 and 5. Adjust heat down as necessary.

-snip-

Clan's small class energy aren't even causing the laser vomit problems we have today because of their relatively short range (laser vomit in general has to be long-medium range). They also are dependent on having a good number of hardpoints, which aren't always that numerous outside of the Nova...

I don't want to see the CERSL and CSPL go the way of the dodo like the IS SL.

[kapusta11]

Gas Guzzler, on 15 February 2015 - 09:07 AM, said:

FYI, a .15 second shorter burn time and 28 MORE heat is not worth going from 16 tons to 30 tons. It is NOT harder to hold on target for another 0.15 seconds. The bias from some of you clanners is just shameful lol

It's not bias, their point of view is based on the key points:

• weight is not important
  
• range is not important

Why? because you can adjust your play style and overcome those weaknesses, however you can't do the same thing with

• whopping 10-25% worse heat efficiency
  
• 0.85 - 1.15 sec burn time lasers

The fact that the former two is where clan lasers have absolute advantage and the latter are where they have only marginal one is a pure accident.

Edited by kapusta11, 15 February 2015 - 10:00 AM.

[Deathlike]

FupDup, on 15 February 2015 - 09:42 AM, said:

Clan's small class energy aren't even causing the laser vomit problems we have today because of their relatively short range (laser vomit in general has to be long-medium range). They also are dependent on having a good number of hardpoints, which aren't always that numerous outside of the Nova...

I don't want to see the CERSL and CSPL go the way of the dodo like the IS SL.

Well, they have to be adjusted... I'd say it would be far more acceptable if we could just remove/reduce ghost heat to go with the reduction on them... as a positive consequence.

The original problem is honestly "the man who shall not be named" but moreso not having establish "what should the CERMED baseline be" and work from that aspect.

That was never stated by the obvious people, and consequently we have had TTK issues stemming from that.

The baseline value of the CERMED should in some part be tested against IS LL... which is the biggest issue.

As currently constituted, it takes 4 CERMED to compete against 3 LL. This ratio is ALL SORTS OF WRONG.

If even the CERMED had its damage changed from 7 to even 6... the ratio would be 3 CERMED to compete against 2 LL. That is arguably a more acceptable ratio on merit alone. That does't even factor heat, tonnage and all the other conditions.

So... that's just the overall idea... and THEN we can adjust all the other Clan laser weapons based on this appropriately.

I mean... by PGI's definition, IS ERMEDs will suck because of what we have right now.

[Yokaiko]

kapusta11, on 15 February 2015 - 09:50 AM, said:

It's not bias, their point of view is based on the key points:

• weight is not important
  
• range is not important

Why? because you can adjust your play style and overcome those weaknesses, however you can't do the same thing with

• whopping 10-25% worse heat efficiency
  
• 0.85 - 1.15 sec burn time lasers

The fact that the former two is where clan lasers have absolute advantage and the latter are where they have only marginal one is a pure accident.

I bet that if you compared available discretionary weight between IS and Clan, you would be shocked.

[FupDup]

Deathlike, on 15 February 2015 - 09:51 AM, said:

Well, they have to be adjusted... I'd say it would be far more acceptable if we could just remove/reduce ghost heat to go with the reduction on them... as a positive consequence.

The original problem is honestly "the man who shall not be named" but moreso not having establish "what should the CERMED baseline be" and work from that aspect.

That was never stated by the obvious people, and consequently we have had TTK issues stemming from that.

The baseline value of the CERMED should in some part be tested against IS LL... which is the biggest issue.

As currently constituted, it takes 4 CERMED to compete against 3 LL. This ratio is ALL SORTS OF WRONG.

If even the CERMED had its damage changed from 7 to even 6... the ratio would be 3 CERMED to compete against 2 LL. That is arguably a more acceptable ratio on merit alone. That does't even factor heat, tonnage and all the other conditions.

So... that's just the overall idea... and THEN we can adjust all the other Clan laser weapons based on this appropriately.

I mean... by PGI's definition, IS ERMEDs will suck because of what we have right now.

It would be super sad if they gave IS ERML 6 heat like the CERML. The TT value of 5 heat would be more acceptable, but probably not that great. Since it's so close to the regular ML's 4 heat, that seems unlikely. Why oh why are the IS SL and ML still heat nerfed after all this time?

But really, the ER Smalls and Small Pulses aren't causing our problems today. Those are mostly used by Novas really, because of having a truckload of hardpoints.... Everyone else tends to spam ERML, ERLL, LPL, SRMs, and/or Gauss (with some exceptions).

[kapusta11]

Yokaiko, on 15 February 2015 - 09:54 AM, said:

I bet that if you compared available discretionary weight between IS and Clan, you would be shocked.

It's not what I think, had you read this thread you'd know that. I'm sorry you haven't catched the irony.

Edited by kapusta11, 15 February 2015 - 10:03 AM.

[Deathlike]

FupDup, on 15 February 2015 - 09:55 AM, said:

It would be super sad if they gave IS ERML 6 heat like the CERML. The TT value of 5 heat would be more acceptable, but probably not that great. Since it's so close to the regular ML's 4 heat, that seems unlikely. Why oh why are the IS SL and ML still heat nerfed after all this time?

Why don't you ask the flaming necromancer of balance this?

Quote

But really, the ER Smalls and Small Pulses aren't causing our problems today. Those are mostly used by Novas really, because of having a truckload of hardpoints.... Everyone else tends to spam ERML, ERLL, LPL, SRMs, and/or Gauss (with some exceptions).

Look... I'm not trying to nerf everything (I mean, someone does that job better than me) and the only concern I'd had with CERSML and CSPL is how they balance against the staple that is the IS Med Laser. There should be a standard, but they have to be defined and not just be a roulette of balance decisions.

[FupDup]

Deathlike, on 15 February 2015 - 09:59 AM, said:

Why don't you ask the flaming necromancer of balance this?

...

Look... I'm not trying to nerf everything (I mean, someone does that job better than me) and the only concern I'd had with CERSML and CSPL is how they balance against the staple that is the IS Med Laser. There should be a standard, but they have to be defined and not just be a roulette of balance decisions.

Both of them have shorter range than the regular ML (200 for ERSL, 165 for SPL, 270 for ML), and the ERSL has a wee bit more duration (0.1s).

People have been calling for the IS ML and SL to have their heat restored to their old values since the nerf first took effect. The Clam invasion just exasperated the issue. The bandaid is long overdue for removal, especially for the regular SL that only masochistic Lolcust drivers use.


WTB 3 heat for IS ML and 1 heat for IS SL. Never forgive, never forget!

Edited by FupDup, 15 February 2015 - 10:12 AM.

[Yokaiko]

Deathlike, on 15 February 2015 - 09:59 AM, said:

Look... I'm not trying to nerf everything (I mean, someone does that job better than me) and the only concern I'd had with CERSML and CSPL is how they balance against the staple that is the IS Med Laser. There should be a standard, but they have to be defined and not just be a roulette of balance decisions.

Not sure why you are surprised there, PGI hasn't picked up a calculator since CB, its been knee jerk after knee jerk.

Modeling this crap isn't hard.

Edited by Yokaiko, 15 February 2015 - 10:11 AM.

[Deathlike]

FupDup, on 15 February 2015 - 10:05 AM, said:

Both of them have shorter range than the regular ML (200 for ERSL, 165 for SPL, 270 for ML), and the ERSL has a wee bit more duration (0.1s).

The concentrated damage at the tonnage (at least for the ERSML) is still a factor as to why it has a longer (though somewhat negligible) duration than the IS ML.

Quote

People have been calling for the IS ML and SL to have their heat restored to their old values since the nerf first took effect. The Clam invasion just exasperated the issue. The bandaid is longer overdue for removal, especially for the regular SL that only masochistic Lolcust drivers use.

Well, we'd have to honestly redo all the laser heat values based on that. The thing is the bad idea that is the current heat dissipation and heat capacity system is at work... so we need to "tonnage friendly" weapons to have more heat... while the bigger weapons get a heat reduction over stock.

In essence... it'll be screwed/skewed like this for a while.

Quote

WTB 3 heat for IS ML and 1 heat for IS SL. Never forgive, never forget!

At this point, asking for a .5 heat reduction in both IS SL and IS SPL probably should be more amenable than any sort of ML heat restoration.

"Heat neutrality is evil," said noone outside of PGI.

Yokaiko, on 15 February 2015 - 10:10 AM, said:

Not sure why you are surprised there, PGI hasn't picked up a calculator since CB, its been knee jerk after knee jerk.

Modeling this crap isn't hard.

It's a rhetorical statement, because this is PGI we're talking about.

Edited by Deathlike, 15 February 2015 - 10:14 AM.

[FupDup]

Deathlike, on 15 February 2015 - 10:13 AM, said:

The concentrated damage at the tonnage (at least for the ERSML) is still a factor as to why it has a longer (though somewhat negligible) duration than the IS ML.

I think it's mostly fair the way it is now, barring the ML heat bandaid from the distant past...

Deathlike, on 15 February 2015 - 10:13 AM, said:

Well, we'd have to honestly redo all the laser heat values based on that. The thing is the bad idea that is the current heat dissipation and heat capacity system is at work... so we need to "tonnage friendly" weapons to have more heat... while the bigger weapons get a heat reduction over stock.

In essence... it'll be screwed/skewed like this for a while.

At this point, asking for a .5 heat reduction in both IS SL and IS SPL probably should be more amenable than any sort of ML heat restoration.

"Heat neutrality is evil", said noone outside of PGI.

I honestly can't believe that you're actually attempting to rationalize the IS SL and ML heat increases. Not just explain the "PGI logic" behind it, but justify it.

What is this...I don't even...

Who are you and what have you done with the real Deathlike?

[Deathlike]

FupDup, on 15 February 2015 - 10:17 AM, said:

I think it's mostly fair the way it is now, barring the ML heat bandaid from the distant past...

Right now, that bandaid is full of infections and the section that bandaid is on probably needs to be amputated.

Quote

I honestly can't believe that you're actually attempting to rationalize the IS SL and ML heat increases. Not just explain the "PGI logic" behind it, but justify it.

What is this...I don't even...

Who are you and what have you done with the real Deathlike?

I've somewhat resigned to said fate.

Right now, I'm trying to troll smarter, instead of harder.

I would like the man who shall not be named to go away.. if that's not possible... see if he can pass out what he's been smoking. Clearly, it's good stuff.

I've been kinda mellow (and equal parts ragey), and if you hadn't paid any attention to the articles I've been writing about Clan Mechs (and IS mechs for that matter).. you should see what I'm aiming at ultimately in showing the numerous and terrible design decisions that have cropped up and why some mechs get the shaft more than others. If someone at PGI actually reads the content AND actually plays this game with any degree of ability, then they would understand what I'm trying to get at... w/o needing to "wonder out loud" like the "Ghost Heat" tweakage of 2015.

But hey... I gotta whine constructively... so here we are.

Edited by Deathlike, 15 February 2015 - 10:24 AM.

[Aresye]

Ultimatum X, on 14 February 2015 - 11:13 PM, said:

You are splitting microscopic hairs at this point.


I get it, you like Clan Laser advantages.

I do, because that's part of what separates Clans from IS.

You want an IS mech that is able to compete with Clan mechs at their own game. Nevermind the fact that the IS has mechs like the medium pulse Thunderbolt, AC20 Hunchback, Misery, Shadowhawk, Griffin, Firestarter, Banshee, King Crab, etc. that are all fully capable of absolutely wrecking the face of Clan mechs in brawling ranges.

Actually, you know what? Let's do it. The more players that take the few mechs the IS has to offer that can compete with Clan mechs at range means the more players that sit back and don't organize a push into short range with the rest of their team, thus actually making the game easier for the Clan side.

[J0anna]

Deathlike, on 15 February 2015 - 09:51 AM, said:

Well, they have to be adjusted...

Without going into specifics of your post, your approach is wrong. You cannot balance this weapon vs that weapon (as many people in this thread are)

You need to balance the weapons in a mech against other mechs. As I quoted earlier, comparing the victor to the gargoyle, you are dealing with a mech that has 14 to 23.5 more tons of room. Not to mention that having cooler weapons (in general) means it can use less of that tonnage on heatsinks. Therefore comparing weapon "a" to weapon "b" is pointless. Using my earlier example on my typical VTR-9K vs my Gargoyle prime.

My victor carries a gauss, 2xSRM 6's and 3xML's, it has a higher alpha, max DPS and max sustained DPS. It takes nearly twice as long to overheat. The gargoyle will begin to overtake it's DPS around 450, but the victor will again surpass that later. It's hard to justify any nerfs to the gargoyle as it is almost completely inferior to the victor (low hardpoints, poor movement profile, and weak hitboxes aside). It can never carry the tonnage of weapons the victor can (and my victor uses a standard engine, so side loss isn't death). My victor does go 23 km/h slower, however my gargoyle isn't going to set any speed records and hitting a huge mech moving 90 km/h isn't much of a challenge.

So even the VTR-9k, (arguably the worst victor model) is better than any gargoyle (I know, shocking since all clan mechs are OP by definition), yet both cost your dropdeck 80 tons. So anticipating the typical PGI quirks for clans, the gargoyle MIGHT get a 10% heat reduction, though I suspect 5% is much more likely. Thus, comparing weapons is pointless, typical setups must be compared. I'm all for removing ghost heat from ALL IS weapons (leave it on clan weapons if desired, just break the ersl/erml tie).