140 replies to this topic

[Ultimax]

NineTails, on 15 February 2015 - 08:54 AM, said:

The IS LL was always bad. Bad in TT, bad in MWO.

Luckily MWO has an improved version.

Gas Guzzler, on 15 February 2015 - 09:07 AM, said:

The bias from some of you clanners is just shameful lol

It's actually embarrassing.

It's also not all Clan players by the way, you tend to find this kind of stuff from the ... not very hardcore competitive clan players. More from the "lore" units.

I could go deeper, but let's leave it here.

Aresye, on 15 February 2015 - 10:47 AM, said:

I do, because that's part of what separates Clans from IS.

You want an IS mech that is able to compete with Clan mechs at their own game.

You're usually pretty objective but...are you serious?


Let's use one of the only IS mechs that can even run this load out, the Stalker.

On what planet is

30 TONS of weapons
12 Crit slots for weapons
30 Crit slots for 10 extra DHS

Even remotely close to competing directly with

16 Tons of weapons
8 Crit slots for weapons
20 Crit slots for 10 extra DHS



The Clan version gets FOURTEEN "bonus" tons from weapons and FOURTEEN bonus crit slots.

It will always be massively faster and if we somehow managed to fit this load out on an IS heavy it would need an XL engine and the Clan mech would also always be more survivable.

Then you can put a MK 1 TC cherry on top of your giant superiority cake.



So what you are saying is that's not enough advantage for you, and the IS mech should also need to spend 28 extra heat to alpha?

Aresye, on 15 February 2015 - 10:47 AM, said:

Nevermind the fact that the IS has mechs like the medium pulse Thunderbolt, AC20 Hunchback, Misery, Shadowhawk, Griffin, Firestarter, Banshee, King Crab, etc. that are all fully capable of absolutely wrecking the face of Clan mechs in brawling ranges.

If you can't deal with Thunderbolts, Hunchbacks, Misery, Shadowhawks (lol), or Griffins in brawl range with a proper brawl range clan mech build that is on you.





The truly laughable part in all of this is that not even removing GH completely would even come close to anything resembling "parity" - it would just close the chasm between IS energy and Clan energy by a small, almost irrelevant margin.

Edited by Ultimatum X, 15 February 2015 - 01:26 PM.

[Aresye]

One side has one set of advantages, the other side has another. If you're having trouble realizing those advantages, I suggest dropping with some of the competitive groups that can make short work of any Clan team, because they know how to utilize IS mechs in the way they were designed.

And it isn't just limited to IS mechs. Us Clanners would really love to have PPFLD ACs. How about you get the Stalker without GH on LL, and we get PPFLD AC20s. Deal?

Edited by Aresye, 15 February 2015 - 01:37 PM.

[Ultimax]

Aresye, on 15 February 2015 - 01:36 PM, said:

One side has one set of advantages, the other side has another.

No, one side has most of the advantages. This is reality.

Aresye, on 15 February 2015 - 01:36 PM, said:

And it isn't just limited to IS mechs. Us Clanners would really love to have PPFLD ACs. How about you get the Stalker without GH on LL, and we get PPFLD AC20s. Deal?

1) I own every clan mech FFS.
2) An AC 20? Sure. A UAC 20? Lol no.

[Gas Guzzler]

Aresye, on 15 February 2015 - 01:36 PM, said:

One side has one set of advantages, the other side has another. If you're having trouble realizing those advantages, I suggest dropping with some of the competitive groups that can make short work of any Clan team, because they know how to utilize IS mechs in the way they were designed.

And it isn't just limited to IS mechs. Us Clanners would really love to have PPFLD ACs. How about you get the Stalker without GH on LL, and we get PPFLD AC20s. Deal?

Our large lasers are barely better then your ER MLs but weight 5 times more, maybe we should lower ER ML ghost heat to 3-4? Sounds fair to me.

[Deathlike]

Moenrg, on 15 February 2015 - 12:54 PM, said:

Without going into specifics of your post, your approach is wrong. You cannot balance this weapon vs that weapon (as many people in this thread are)

My approach has its own issues, but it's actually important where things are balanced around. Even if you disagree that IS LL vs CERMED is not a good comparison, you'd have to think about "effective tonnage". This is also combined with just understanding that CERMED is the bread and butter of mech building for Clans... just like the IS Med.

Somewhat recently, smurfy had added a DPS per ton metric. Essentially it measures DPS vs the amount to expend on tonnage. Obviously big bulky weapons stink at this... and really low tonnage weapons have a high value... but oftentimes trades range to accomplish this.

The CERMED is probably the best value for essentially mid-range competence... even the regular IS Med Laser is still lower. Anyone with a clue knows how much more effective a CERMED happens to be... so the standard in which all CLAN weapon balance must be based off of this.

The reason why I do the CERMED vs LL comparison is to actually consider the tonnage consumed.

4 CERMED vs 3 IS LL means...
28 damage vs 27 damage (close to equal)
4 tons Clan weapons vs 15 tons of IS weapons..

This is essentially a commitment of 3.75 times by the IS to have the equivalent effectiveness... this doesn't even factor in how ghost heat (which is currently reduced for LL at the moment) that would impede heat generation.

Without factoring ghost heat..

4 CERMED generates 24 heat... vs 3 IS LL generating 21 heat (3 pt heat diff).

For the tonnage considered, the Clans have it nice when you have an 11 ton advantage before DHS is even involved.


In the case of 3 CERMED vs 2 LL... when damage is reduced by 1 for the CERMED... (making it 6)
3 tons (CERMED) vs 10 tons (IS LL)... a 3.33 times commitment for the IS to do the same thing.
18 damage (3 CERMED) vs 18 damage (2 IS LL)
18 heat generated by 3 CERMED vs 14 heat generated by 2 IS LL (4 pt heat diff)
For 7 less tons, for the Clan vs IS... that's an improvement over the 11 tons mentioned in the current state of the game. This is before DHS.

Part of the Clan omnipod building methodology is locked to the tonnage limitations of the engine... so it hurts the Maddog less than the Timberwolf for instance. As you increase the engine tonnage, it becomes an abomination (see Gargoyle).

Since the IS has all the flexibility to downgrade the engine as needed, the DHS availability shifts in favor of the IS... but only if the other things are not out of whack... when comparing the 6 LL Stalker build vs a 2CPL+4CERMED Timberwolf build. If a Stalker build didn't look so unfavorable to the Timberwolf, then obviously the math between the "effective tonnage consumed" in the IS LL vs CERMED has to change a bit.

I'm not saying my methodology is right or should be used, but you have to think a bit more sacrifices that must be made on both ends to even remotely accomplish a "fair enough result".

Right now, it's just lopsided. Unfortunately I like Clan laservomit than IS laservomit, so thank the OP for bringing this particular detail up... because it's kind of one of those things that has to be looked into.

[Johnny Z]

Yes CERML has been called a quasi LL since they came out. But maybe comparing the CERML and the ML may be another worth while comparison. Same tonnage after all.

Edited by Johnny Z, 15 February 2015 - 03:47 PM.

[Saint Scarlett Johan]

Aresye, on 15 February 2015 - 01:36 PM, said:

One side has one set of advantages, the other side has another. If you're having trouble realizing those advantages, I suggest dropping with some of the competitive groups that can make short work of any Clan team, because they know how to utilize IS mechs in the way they were designed.

And it isn't just limited to IS mechs. Us Clanners would really love to have PPFLD ACs. How about you get the Stalker without GH on LL, and we get PPFLD AC20s. Deal?

And when it comes to brass tacks, those comp IS teams take Clam mechs every chance they get. There is a reason why leagues like MCW and MRBC heavily limit clan mech usage.

It's essentially this:
-Clan lasers > IS lasers
-Clan SSRMs > IS SSRMs
-Clan SRMs > IS SRMs
-Clan LRMs actually have parity with IS LRMs
-IS PPCs > Clan PPCs
-IS ballistics > Clan ballistics

I'd love for clan ballistics to be worth their tonnage. I'd also like for IS lasers to be worth their tonnage.

[norus]

Lord Scarlett Johan, on 15 February 2015 - 04:21 PM, said:

And when it comes to brass tacks, those comp IS teams take Clam mechs every chance they get. There is a reason why leagues like MCW and MRBC heavily limit clan mech usage.

It's essentially this:
-Clan lasers > IS lasers
-Clan SSRMs > IS SSRMs
-Clan SRMs > IS SRMs
-Clan LRMs actually have parity with IS LRMs
-IS PPCs > Clan PPCs
-IS ballistics > Clan ballistics

I'd love for clan ballistics to be worth their tonnage. I'd also like for IS lasers to be worth their tonnage.

The PPC part is debatable, it's only the quirks that prop them up for the IS so they aren't worth using on the majority of mechs. Without them the cerppc is far superior to the IS erppc and a IS standard ppc has much lower range + minimum range, slower velocity, worse tonnage/crits in return for better heat.

[Saint Scarlett Johan]

norus, on 15 February 2015 - 05:11 PM, said:

The PPC part is debatable, it's only the quirks that prop them up for the IS so they aren't worth using on the majority of mechs. Without them the cerppc is far superior to the IS erppc and a IS standard ppc has much lower range + minimum range, slower velocity, worse tonnage/crits in return for better heat.

I personally haven't had issues with the PPC outside of hitreg as it's just an energy AC10 and most mechs get at least 10% energy heat quirks.

But I feel that IS weapons need heavy tweaking and that quirks need to dialed back and significantly changed to stuff like increased torso twist range, increased engine caps, increased internal structure, and then some being given actual quirks like raising the PPC ghost heat limit to 3 on the AWS-8Q.

[Zordicron]

All you guys saying clan AC's are so bad: you are wrong.

Ballistic HSR is bad, and clans have more pellets per round, so more chances for ballistic HSR to **** up. So:

Laser HSR is really good right now, really, really good for the first time ever. So laser vomit wins. This is not debatable, laser vomit 6x MPL boat will smoke an AC40 King crab PPFLD AC's and all, without an issue, because crab will have to contend with 1/3 of his shots registering zero dmg, or next to zero dmg, or watch them pass straight through an enemy into the dirt behind them etc. This is simply exacerbated with clan AC's, because if even one pellet counts it will turn your crosshair red, even if all the rest get vaporized into nothing by bad HSR.

Lasers USED to be that way, doing 0-100% of the dmg on every shot. Meta try-hards all said they sprayed dmg everywhere and sucked. NOW WE SAY THAT ABOUT CLAN AC: BECAUSE THEY ACT THE SAME WAY LASERS USED TO. Lasers didnt spray everywhere, they just didnt do the dmg they were supposed to. Now clan AC's dont spray all over, they just dont do the dmg they are supposed to, in fact it got worse when they fixed the laser HSR. Whatever adjustment they made, made it worse for ballistic HSR at the same time.

Laser vomit wins, because it relaibly does the dmg it should, so you know when and where you are doing dmg. thats why it is the meta, just like PPFLD PPC/AC combos were before, because lasers did unreliable dmg, and even if a alpha strike from PPC/AC5 missed an enemy sometimes from bad HSR, when it did hit it did all the dmg. Now we see the opposite happening, lasers do all the dmg while projectiles with multiple pellets(IS LBX I LOOK AT YOU TOO) do 0-100% of the dmg instead.


As for ghost heat, sure remove it. it will force PGI's hand to rework the heatscale/dissipation system.

[ThrashInc]

Screech, on 14 February 2015 - 10:13 AM, said:

How can you compare laser when you intentionally cripple one with ghost heat? Also laser vomit is a symptom of clan AC's being bad nothing else.

If my DW ever did its actual damage...lol.

[Lily from animove]

wow pgi should for 2 weeks allow all lasers available for all, the lets see whats happening, just for the lulz.

people whonsay 0,15 sec burntimes means nothign do not know much about the gameplay at all, 0,15 seconds means a lot, its the difference between landing fire in the same section or not. its the diffrence in exposure to probbaly eat a gass shot or be in cover again. Some hin here do not know the entire consequences that 0,15 seconds in a shooter can mean. or they play in low elo puglandia where everyone palys like a sitting duck. Because otherwise you would know how valuable those 0,15seconds are from many more different standpoints than just "unloading damage"

Eldagore, on 15 February 2015 - 10:07 PM, said:

All you guys saying clan AC's are so bad: you are wrong.

Ballistic HSR is bad, and clans have more pellets per round, so more chances for ballistic HSR to **** up. So:

Laser HSR is really good right now, really, really good for the first time ever. So laser vomit wins. This is not debatable, laser vomit 6x MPL boat will smoke an AC40 King crab PPFLD AC's and all, without an issue, because crab will have to contend with 1/3 of his shots registering zero dmg, or next to zero dmg, or watch them pass straight through an enemy into the dirt behind them etc. This is simply exacerbated with clan AC's, because if even one pellet counts it will turn your crosshair red, even if all the rest get vaporized into nothing by bad HSR.

Lasers USED to be that way, doing 0-100% of the dmg on every shot. Meta try-hards all said they sprayed dmg everywhere and sucked. NOW WE SAY THAT ABOUT CLAN AC: BECAUSE THEY ACT THE SAME WAY LASERS USED TO. Lasers didnt spray everywhere, they just didnt do the dmg they were supposed to. Now clan AC's dont spray all over, they just dont do the dmg they are supposed to, in fact it got worse when they fixed the laser HSR. Whatever adjustment they made, made it worse for ballistic HSR at the same time.

Laser vomit wins, because it relaibly does the dmg it should, so you know when and where you are doing dmg. thats why it is the meta, just like PPFLD PPC/AC combos were before, because lasers did unreliable dmg, and even if a alpha strike from PPC/AC5 missed an enemy sometimes from bad HSR, when it did hit it did all the dmg. Now we see the opposite happening, lasers do all the dmg while projectiles with multiple pellets(IS LBX I LOOK AT YOU TOO) do 0-100% of the dmg instead.


As for ghost heat, sure remove it. it will force PGI's hand to rework the heatscale/dissipation system.

lol you have not palyed this weekend have you? laserhitrge was litterally gone, average 30-50% damage disappeared. and the more pellets, the bigger is the chance the server cna not handle info and lets damage disappear.

Edited by Lily from animove, 16 February 2015 - 02:01 AM.

[Zordicron]

Lily from animove, on 16 February 2015 - 02:00 AM, said:

wow pgi should for 2 weeks allow all lasers available for all, the lets see whats happening, just for the lulz.

people whonsay 0,15 sec burntimes means nothign do not know much about the gameplay at all, 0,15 seconds means a lot, its the difference between landing fire in the same section or not. its the diffrence in exposure to probbaly eat a gass shot or be in cover again. Some hin here do not know the entire consequences that 0,15 seconds in a shooter can mean. or they play in low elo puglandia where everyone palys like a sitting duck. Because otherwise you would know how valuable those 0,15seconds are from many more different standpoints than just "unloading damage"



lol you have not palyed this weekend have you? laser hitreg was litterally gone, average 30-50% damage disappeared. and the more pellets, the bigger is the chance the server cna not handle info and lets damage disappear.

Yes I played, my laser hit reg wasnt that bad. Only on very fast moving targets when I was also moving very fast. That second part of your repply is exactly what I am talking about. The clan AC have HSR issues, not actual design issues.

[Yokaiko]

Eldagore, on 15 February 2015 - 10:07 PM, said:

All you guys saying clan AC's are so bad: you are wrong.

.

Paying 12 tons for essentially a cooler laser is pretty bad, better off just sticking on that 4 ton llas and a few more HSs.

[Trolzylulzy]

Moenrg, on 14 February 2015 - 05:47 PM, said:

Yes it is, my VTR-9K runs a standard 300 (no xl problems here), 2xJJ, endo, and packs 34 tons of weapons and heat sinks with near maximum armor. My Gargoyle prime has the exact same armor, no JJ, 6 hardwired heatsinks and 20 tons available for weapons and (extra) heatsinks (since clan weapons are hotter), and goes a whole 23 km/h faster....Yes tonnage is "a thing".

And...oh look...if I ran a XL 300, I'd have 43.5 tons available for weapons and heatsinks - more than double the weapon tonnage for XL vulnerability....

Hahahahahhaha, you just compared the best IS Assault to the single worst assault!

HAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHA!

Oh ****... were you serious?

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

Lily from animove, on 16 February 2015 - 02:00 AM, said:

wow pgi should for 2 weeks allow all lasers available for all, the lets see whats happening, just for the lulz.

people whonsay 0,15 sec burntimes means nothign do not know much about the gameplay at all, 0,15 seconds means a lot, its the difference between landing fire in the same section or not. its the diffrence in exposure to probbaly eat a gass shot or be in cover again. Some hin here do not know the entire consequences that 0,15 seconds in a shooter can mean. or they play in low elo puglandia where everyone palys like a sitting duck. Because otherwise you would know how valuable those 0,15seconds are from many more different standpoints than just "unloading damage"

Allow all lasers you say?
*quickly unloads 5 ErMLS onto Jenner-D*
*also loads 4 CMPLs onto Jenner-K*
*ALSO loads 4 ErMLs onto Jenner-F*

THE BEST JUST GOT BETTER!

Oh, and .15 seconds is literally nothing.

As a primary Light pilot who loves his Locusts, .15 seconds is a matter of .15 seconds more tracking, which is kinda laughable.

Edited by Trolzylulzy, 16 February 2015 - 07:32 PM.

[Yokaiko]

Trolzylulzy, on 16 February 2015 - 07:05 PM, said:

Hahahahahhaha, you just compared the best IS Assault to the single worst assault!

HAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHA!

Oh ****... were you serious?

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

......2014 called. Victors are meh at best now.

[Trolzylulzy]

Yokaiko, on 16 February 2015 - 07:26 PM, said:

......2014 called. Victors are meh at best now.

All right, change that to "hahah etc. You campared ANY OTHER MECH to the Gargoyle. Hahah etc."

Edited by Trolzylulzy, 16 February 2015 - 07:34 PM.

[Yokaiko]

Trolzylulzy, on 16 February 2015 - 07:34 PM, said:

All right, change that to "hahah etc. You campared ANY OTHER MECH to the Gargoyle. Hahah etc."

Valid.

[Koniks]

Ursh, on 15 February 2015 - 03:27 AM, said:

They feel a lot better, actually. None of the clan mechs can do what the more outrageously quirked energy IS mechs can do.

You mean spit out 2-3 40-60 point alphas at 400m optimum range before having to cool down? You're right. None of the quirked IS mechs can do that.

Especially IS mechs that weigh between 55-75 tons.

[Lily from animove]

Trolzylulzy, on 16 February 2015 - 07:05 PM, said:

Hahahahahhaha, you just compared the best IS Assault to the single worst assault!

HAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHA!

Oh ****... were you serious?

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!



Allow all lasers you say?
*quickly unloads 5 ErMLS onto Jenner-D*
*also loads 4 CMPLs onto Jenner-K*
*ALSO loads 4 ErMLs onto Jenner-F*

THE BEST JUST GOT BETTER!

Oh, and .15 seconds is literally nothing.

As a primary Light pilot who loves his Locusts, .15 seconds is a matter of .15 seconds more tracking, which is kinda laughable.

thats what you think, but play this first and your will see you cannot spam your litttle new and "better" lasers anymore, and you can not twist as funny as before and you will eat more damage into the same section.

Edited by Lily from animove, 17 February 2015 - 01:22 AM.